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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 3:42:26 PM | I hate abusive people.I heard a guy screaming at his wife through the wall where I live.It was so loud and I could hear the horrible names he was calling the woman.With little kids present no less.I summoned the police.haven't seen him around since.that was two weeks ago. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 7:55:40 PM | | This is a blanket post to those who feel that women who end up with abusers are looking for abusers and or if they stay they want to be abused. As well as bassman who thinks most women hit their husbands and there for that is why men beat their wives. I don't know if I am more shocked or disappointed at the narrow mindedness of abuse. Do you really think abused women go back to abuser or date and or marry abusers because they like abuse? do you think they stay is because they enjoy being beaten? Do your really think women fall in love just so they can be verbally, physically and mentally abused? Most women love thier mates so much they think they can change them and there is often children involved and don't want to end up losing their kids to the abuser who threatens to take them away if she leaves. There are so many scenerios about why women go back or stay in abusive relationsbhip and it has nothing to do with low self esteem or that they like being abused. Or even worse they are so stupid they just don't care. They believe the abuser will change. They believe if they love them more they will not abuse them. They believe that the abuser was abaused and can't help it. They believe they don't have the resorces to leave. they are told if they leave they will be killed. The list goes on and on. I am sure there are women who make up abuse but it is still not the norm. The norm is real live abuse and often murder. So much so its very scary and very sad. Think about if your daughter was murdered by an abuser. Would you say your daughter asked for it or should have known better. Or should have left sooner. Often the abuser will make threats of harming family member is the abused anyone about the abuse. My ex use to shimmy up trees if I left and hid at a friends of families house and climb in the window and start choking me in the middle of the night. The police use to say a mans home is his castle and he can do as he pleases. Now that is sick. What I meant about doing more to st op abuse is about educating people, educating young adults in school. Stiffer laws for abusers. More protection for the abused. Take orders of protection serious. not sweep abuse under the rug. Getting into a brawl with an abuser is foolish. Getting away is the best answer but don't condemn those that can't or are afraid too. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 11:12:16 PM |
Do you really think abused women go back to abuser or date and or marry abusers because they like abuse?
Not on a conscious level. But you're missing the point. The abused seeks out the abuser because of a neurotic need to be abused. As I said before (but you missed it completely and never responded to anything I said) NO WOMAN consciously goes out the door thinking to herself "wow, I'd love to find a guy who'd beat me up on a regular basis". It doesn't work that way. Please re-read my post because you're missing something important here.
do you think they stay is because they enjoy being beaten?
They stay for a variety of reasons. They stay because they're afraid to leave (which is quite understandable but in this day and age there's help all over the place for women who wind up in that situation). Some stay because their insecurities tell them they deserve it. They don't stay because, on a conscious level, they enjoy abuse (unless there's a little masochism there - there ARE people, by the way, who DO enjoy pain).
Do your really think women fall in love just so they can be verbally, physically and mentally abused?
Same question. Same answer.
Most women love thier mates so much they think they can change them
That's a neurotic fantasy. It's pure fantasy. How many of those "most women" have you personally discussed the matter with? How do you know what "most women" think or do? How many of the "most women" you refer to were successful?
there is often children involved and don't want to end up losing their kids to the abuser who threatens to take them away if she leaves.
If, god forbid, there ARE children involved, that's all the MORE reason to leave post haste. If they DON'T leave, those children will have their conception of "relationship" defined by an abuser and those kids will grow up to also get into an abusive relationship and history repeats itself. The existence of children is not only yet another excuse to stay for more abuse but it's also putting those children at risk so if those women don't care enough to save themselves, for god's sake, at least save the children.
They believe the abuser will change. They believe if they love them more they will not abuse them. They believe that the abuser was abaused and can't help it. They believe they don't have the resorces to leave. they are told if they leave they will be killed.
Their "beliefs" are irrelevant because they're neurotic beliefs. They have no bearing in reality. They are excuses they give themselves for being there and staying there.
Think about if your daughter was murdered by an abuser. Would you say your daughter asked for it or should have known better. Or should have left sooner.
Of course she should have left sooner. Don't YOU? That's a freakin' no-brainer don't you think?
The police use to say a mans home is his castle and he can do as he pleases.
I find that hard to believe. Very hard to believe. That's the kind of thing one would expect in some incest laden small town in the south. It's hard to imagine in happening in a city of any size. That's just crazy.
Getting away is the best answer but don't condemn those that can't or are afraid too.
For gods sake. No one here is condemning anyone. We're responding to you thread offering you reasons why some people do what they do. Don't be so defensive. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/20/2008 12:15:58 AM | I just replied to a similar thread...
I always play devils advocate, so...
I think violent offenders are people too, sure they can be rehabilitated, but not many people like to accept when their wrong. I bet there are more alchoholics than recovering alchoholics.
Sure they can blame it on their past, we can all blame our problems on our past, but I believe those who achieve greatness don't blame anyone, not even themselves. They just deal with life as it happens and make the best out of it.
There isn't more help for abusers, because there are people who are more willing to help themselves that also need help, I guess. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/20/2008 2:47:28 AM | I tell ya what OP....you can believe what you want to be believe about why people stay with abusers. All the things you listed above are NOTHING BUT EXCUSES. If you value your life and the life of your children then you would leave that situation regardless of what you have to do.
And to personally answer 'if it were my daughter'....She'd only have to tell me once that someone was abusing her and I guran-damn-tee you this...it wouldn't happen a second time.
~Welder's Girl~ | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/20/2008 6:35:26 AM | | I'll tell you what welder I am not condoning these reasons why women stay its just a fact and when they are in these relationships they truely believe things can change. it does not make them bad people or idiots. They just don't want to throw away everything they think there is some speck of hope and not only that if your in fear for your life and have no where to go and the person abusing you won't give you money or a car or a means to contact anyone what is that person suppose to do? Their every move is scrutinized and their outlook can be hopeless. Feeling there is no way out. I having dealt with the system at hand for abused women know all to well the programs are band aids for helping these people. A homeless shelter only give you like 2 weeks. then what? You have no means to do anything and you may have had to leave with just the cloths on your back and the abuser may have kept your kids. You do not have a clue as to how bad things can get. I hate the blanket statements that every single women who is in an abusive relationship deserves it because she can get out so easy. Read up my friends, read up and get educated. Perfectly sweet loving women are being murdered everyday by their wacked out husbands. This is why hardly nothing is being done because the majority who have all the answers think its so easy to get away and there for if you don;t leave you made your bed no sleep ro die in it. Come on now is there any common sense here. I know several on here who have it. Who understand exactly what I am saying. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/20/2008 6:52:14 AM | Bluesman I do not want to argue with you over this. You have your views and I have mine. And yes I have personally talked to many many women who have been and or are still being abused. I work closely with an abused advocate on a daily basis and also go to meetings once a week. She had educated me on so much about the system and how backwards it is. Yes there are police that still think a mans home is his castle because many policemen are abusers to their wives. In our area along at least twice a year a policeman murders his wife. Many women leave and then are stalked and found. New years eve in my county a young girl was working late to do customers hair that were going out for new years. her boyfriend came to the beauty shop at 10 at night and made all the customers lay flat on the floor and he shot her in the head and killed her.
Just leaving is still not the end of the story. These phyco men are out to get the person they had control of and get them back or kill them. These women need our compassion not judgement and condemnation. They need the justice system to take notice and do more to help them, protect them. Give them better resourses to get away and be protected. I didn't not say all police are ignornat but there are some maybe half that think that a man has a right to do what ever he wants with his wife. Believe me I wish what I was saying were not true. Sadly it is. God as my witness. Its completely true. I have no reason to lie about this. this subject is very serious and its not a joke or a fantasy. Its real women who are caught up in dangerous situations. When I had my abusive husband removed from my home it took the sheriff 14 hrs to serve him papers to leave. In that time he cleaned me out. Now he stalks me weekly and each time he threatens me I report it and the police do nothing even though I have an order of protection. Now your going to probably find a way to say its my fault and all this is made up. You can think what ever you want. I know its 100:% true and I can show the orders of protections to prove it and the trials and the results. We have to re evaluate the way this is being handled and come up with better solutions to help battered women. Also to get the abusers in programs that will open their eyes to their behavior. If they don't complete these programs they should be put in jail. That is my solution. Change or go to jail. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/20/2008 7:40:10 AM | OP,
Is there any hope for them? IMO, SCREW THEM! Is there any hope for US?
Maybe they should be paired off and have to live with themselves and each other. I'm sorry, but I can't wax philanthropic or altruistic over these people with habitually bad behavior. I've seen the result of their handiwork too many times. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/20/2008 8:36:02 AM |
The abused seeks out the abuser because of a neurotic need to be abused
I have to ask, what about children? Are they neurotic and ask their dad's to abuse them? Unconsciously of course?
This is the craziest thinking i've ever heard. And don't think i haven't heard the psychological crap that therapists come up with. "because you were abused as a child, you unconsciously are trying to make sense of it by repeating it in your adult life" Abusers abuse who ever they can. The abused are often mislead and manipulated by very clever men and women who groom a person into a victim. No one starts out as a victim, who in their right mind would go on a date and get slapped by their date and then go out on another date with them?
If people can't understand the simple truth we will never be safe. You can make up all sorts of psychological mumbo-jumbo and make a victim believe it but often trying to make sense of the abuse they suffered they are willing to believe therapists so they can deal with the pain and move on. Truth is they are senseless violent acts that only have roots in the abusers mind. turning victims into responsible partners in such a crime is a crime in itself. Sure they were manipulated, sure their self esteem is low or even perhaps was before it began. But because we are holding them more responsible then the abuser we are just as bad as the abuser and allowing the cycle to continue.
Abuse should go on peoples record and if they do not disclose the abuse to potential partners they should be put in jail. There is a complete lack of education on abuse in it's more subtle forms mental and emotional but they are equally as debilitating socially as physical. The penalty should be reflected by the recovery of the victim. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/20/2008 9:00:14 AM | Newyork,
I was in an abusive relationship and just like you I kept going back. I left for the final time over a year ago now. We were only together for 3 years and this was the only relationship I have ever been in where there was abuse. Nov 2007 was one year since I left. I wrote this on another forum that I belonged to after the year had past. There is nothing you can do to fix him, there is no help for him, unless he sees he has a problem, not likely going to happen. From reading your threads it seems that you are out of it now. Good for you, now you need to heal to move on and not wind up with another guy like him. This little thing I wrote is pasted on my fridge still to this day. Read it and see there is a great life waiting for you once you heal.
What I Have Learned.......
I have learned in the last few months that holding on to my anger at him is only allowing him to win. I have forgiven him for all he has done to me all the hell he put me through and I thank him now for teaching me a hard life lesson.
I have learned being on my own is ok. I will not die from being alone I will likely grow stronger as time goes on.
I have learned to watch for red flags and listen to them.
I have learned to start breaking down walls that he helped build.
I have learned to not let small stuff get to me.
I have learned no matter how many tears I cried he was not worth one of them.
I have learned how my own actions caused some of what happened.
I have learned not to be afraid to say what I think.
I have learned the happiness I seek is within me not the people around me.
Most of all I have learned to like me again.
For all of you going through the abuse and cheating the hurt the anger, let it all go. The people who hurt us are not worth the amount of time we spend on them. Forgiveness is not for the abuser it is for you and you alone. Write a letter on why you forgive them, let go of the anger and hurt. Once you do this the rate of healing can be amazing.
I have forgiven him and now when I see an email from him or a text I no longer get the "gut punch" feeling I just delete and carry on. This is a wonderful feeling. I have recently put myself back on the dating field and I wouldn’t tell I know that I will not make someone new pay for the others abuse towards me.
Everyday I see a marked improvement in my attitude and humor. Everyday I laugh and have fun. I can not change what happened it is there forever all I can do is change my reactions to it.
Have a great day everyone and remember laugh at least once everyday. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/20/2008 2:52:02 PM |
I hate the blanket statements that every single women who is in an abusive relationship deserves it because she can get out so easy.
Please quote the post that says this or stop saying it. What I hate is being misquoted several times by the same person.
At least two cop wives get killed in your area every year? Wow that's amazing because someone already pointed out how those statistics cannot be true. Please cite the names of the cops wives who were killed.
Every year huh? You'd think the Attorney General would have stepped in by now. OH I know, he's a wife beater too. They're just everywhere in your state huh?
FYI It's Advocate for the Abused, not abused advocate. Unless her husband is a cop too. <<<< Sarcasm. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/20/2008 3:00:36 PM | ..it has always taken two to fight ..always has ..always will..zero tolerance means women included ..start locking them both up ..
i dont think anyone looks for an abuser or wants to be abused..i have always thought that was stupid reasoning .
is ther hope ??..yes when you stop protecting abusers ..by aplying the law and equal time for the crime ..it takes two to fight ...charge them both ..and if they dont like it ...they can move on .. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/20/2008 6:26:06 PM | | Your sarcastic ways are so special and admirable aspiring angel. Not a very appropriate name for you. But who am I to judge. First off I corrected my statement I meant in my county not town. and second I didn't say every year I said this past year. Why do you think my statements are directed at you ? Got a complex? My statement was not even directed at you. It was directed to anyone who thinks its easy for an abused women to get help or get out. One cop went to a night club and shot her in cold blood. The other shot his wife then himself. If you think I have nothing better to do than make up these storeies you not wrapped too tight. No one would even want to make up something like this. Your making a joke out of something that is serious and sad and is never going to stop with your kind of attitude. You need to chill out. Stop bragging about how you got away by beating up men. Not all women are that strong and what were these men 12? See I can be sarcastic too. Isn't very nice is it? | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/20/2008 6:50:39 PM |
It was directed to anyone who thinks its easy for an abused women to get help or get out.
You can keep twisting the facts to suit you but the fact is that NO ONE here ever said it was easy. We're just saying it has to be done for the woman's protection and the children if there are any. But there's a sickness exhibited by women who break up with the same abuser and then go back to them time and time again. That needs to stop. They need to be educated. They need to be helped. I've been talking about the dynamics of those kinds of relationships which you continue to ignore. So be it. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/20/2008 7:22:16 PM | This is the craziest thinking i've ever heard. And don't think i haven't heard the psychological crap that therapists come up with. "because you were abused as a child, you unconsciously are trying to make sense of it by repeating it in your adult life" Abusers abuse who ever they can. The abused are often mislead and manipulated by very clever men and women who groom a person into a victim. No one starts out as a victim, who in their right mind would go on a date and get slapped by their date and then go out on another date with them?
Well said CrazyLilting!!! I started to respond to that whole myth last night but thought, "when people want to believe something, they believe it". Some people are completely driven to re-victimize the victim and there's nothing you can say, that will change their direction.
I find it interesting how these same people will spout the reasons why women stay... They reel them all off but maybe because they're tiny words, they don't make much of a sound in the reader (or listener's) mind. Take for instance, the word "fear" - a small innocuous 4-letter word that people barely hear. How many of them have known what it is to live in fear? Can they take that word and imagine the scenarios that cause that fear? The choking, the strangling, having sharp objects being jabbed at them, being grabbed as they walk by a clump of trees, feeling their bodies being pummelled and kicked? Do they know how it feels to think they're going to die in the next instant? Nah... most of them are snuggled up in their cozy beds while these atrocities are committed down the block.
Take another word... "poverty"... Not such a small word but one that people fail to even understand the impact of... They tell a woman who has hungry children to "do what needs to be done" to get them out of harm's way while failing to consider that if that woman has been financially disempowered, starving them to death isn't going to make them "Mother of the Month". How many have tried to get up with almost no help from the sociopathic system we call our government? How many have tried to live on social assistance and found it left them money to spare? How many are given their 4 bags of food (like pickled mushrooms) from the Food Bank every month and put that together with the tiny stipend social assistance leaves them for food? How many of them face the dread of losing their children when a monied and raving power-drunk threatens to take them to court and they can't even afford legal counsel.
And... how about the ones who say that there is lots of legal help available? I call bullsh*t!!! Offenders with lengthy histories of assault are being charged by the police but when it gets up to the community prosecutor's office, they proceed by misdemeanor (or summarily here in Canada) regardless. Because the offender whose been held without bail in remand (because the police recognize the history), gets 2 days credit for every day served and waits 6 weeks for the trial, he's right back out when the judge sentences him to "3 months and time served". Where is that damn prosecutor who chose to proceed summarily or even worse, plead the guy out when that angry man is back on his ex's doorstep or worse, coming through her window?
How long does it take to kill someone? 3 minutes? 5 minutes? How many times can the police get there in time? Do we think these women don't know what they're up against?
Restraining orders... a red flag to a bull...
Women's transition houses... full to the brim and limiting stays to 30 days...
Men's transition houses... very few...
Families.. vicarious victims of the offender and just as likely to be hurt if they try to help...
Friends... As George Carlin says... "Saaaaaave MY a$$"...
And how about the fact that women are still occupying 70% of the casual and entry level jobs with cutbacks to daycare subsidies? Administrative and clerical positions remain one of the lowest paid job categories. Lawyers, in particular, are known for walking off with most of the bankroll while refusing to pay their (generally) female staffers anywhere NEAR what they are worth!
People say.. she should just leave... That word "just" makes everything so simple because the guy who's sitting behind his desk wondering when he should go out for his next round of golf, really hasn't got a clue what he's actually talking about. He says, "fear" without feeling it, "poverty" without knowing it OR understanding it, "legal help" without recognizing that the revenue cutbacks are even in crown counsel offices these days, "restraining orders" like the woman can beat the guy off with it and "transition houses" like these women and children living in dormitory conditions is really no big deal...
But the cruelest cut of all is to say, "Hey... She was asking for it... She was looking for it... She wanted it!"
How very, very sad!!!  | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/20/2008 7:34:10 PM | | bassman you can talk to a women till your blue in the face to leave but if she is scared, or brain washed, or has no place to go and no money she will stay or keep going back. I personally do not think that that is sick. I think its a sad fact that women are brain washed and controled so much they don't know what to do. You make it sound like they are sick in a way that is demeaning. I may be misunderstanding what your saying and if I am I apologize. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/21/2008 12:22:32 AM | Silken Fire,
You make some good points. especially about the work market and society and peoples inability to hear. As long as women are treated like second class citizens abuses like we are talking about here will continue. Like i say many of the abusers traits are prized by high powered money businesses as well as the smaller businesses that try to model the bigger ones to become rich as well. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/21/2008 1:28:55 AM |
In our area along at least twice a year a policeman murders his wife.
At least twice a year. These are your words.
Please quote where anyone said: It's easy to leave or that the abused deserve to be abused.
You wont find such a post to quote because no one has said it. Yet you keep spouting it as if it has been said. Your posts do not debate what has been said, only your interpretation; which is lacking.
Please cite the post where anyone has said abused people are dumb.
Please cite where anyone joked about abuse.
Please get some help.
Personal attacks like yours above are not allowed here. I'd be more careful and stick to the topic at hand, rather than building a straw man argument. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/21/2008 2:03:58 AM |
But the cruelest cut of all is to say, "Hey... She was asking for it... She was looking for it... She wanted it!"
SilkenFire, please cite where anyone has said this.
What is truly sad is that there are people in this thread talking trash about the system and the people who are there to help. If I was being abused right now, I'd read (loosely) how cops are wife killers, restraining orders are a joke, and that it would take my abuser minutes to kill me! That's what is really really sad in this thread!
You may not agree with others' positions here on abuse, but twisting what they've said and using it to support your side is wrong.
I understand there are at least three women here supporting each other on their stance of abuse and degrading others points of view, to support your stance. I've no problem with either of those potential facts (i'd have to read all your posts again to be sure). But to say that "we" have no idea of what we speak, lay comfy in our warm beds at night while others lay dying is ignorant. You have no idea who I am, or what I'm about. (ditto for others here). You only know what I've posted.
I may be on the golf course later today, but that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Just FYI, My own grandfather sexually assaulted me when I was 3 years old. My brother caught him and was nearly strangled to death before my Mother came in and saved us. Later on I was in a "relationship" with someone 12 years older than me. Big deal right? Yeah, I was 11 and it lasted until I was 17 because I didn't understand how to end it. He threatened to kill himself, kill my family and swore he'd never go to jail. No one would believe me etc etc etc. I ended up in three abusive relationships after that. (and no, he never went to prison for what he did. I proved what he had done by getting pregnant at 15; blood tests don't lie).
This was all in the days BEFORE restraining orders, or any of the other victim's help groups. I'm glad there are laws in place now, where someone can be arrested for stalking you. Yeah, he waited for me every single day after school. He sat in a parking lot across the street from my home. The police (when I was 17) told me, it's a free world, he can sit where he likes. Yeah? PTSD, lived it every single day. Never knew where he was going to be next.
Now, continue your diatrabe about how I know nothing of abuse or abusers or that I'm laying in bed comfy and cozy every night.
I lived and breathed abuse since the day I was born. I do know what I'm talking about.
All I ask is that if you're going to suggest one of us has said somthing; quote us. It's a small request and one I hope you'll utilize.
Best Wishes ~ | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/21/2008 3:34:21 AM | First, this was your post 16, Asp Angel that started all the trouble and misunderstanding here, as far as I can see. The thread was asking, for the first time perhaps, is there any help for the abuser, not the abused.....for we know so often the abused is the one in the spotlight on these forums.....
So, I was interested to see this thread and was so glad to see the first posts were really focusing on the original questions (though I figured soon enough the abused would start talking here, for of course they are more likely to than those doing the abuse it seems)....
And then out of the blue you posted your post that not only did not address the original question, but brought up your view from the abused side and almost blamed the abused for the abuse, even though I realize you were trying to say, to help the abuser, help yourself and defend yourself and that truly is what you found stopped the abuse. But it was misunderstood because and taken as insensitive because you were taking your own strength and lack of victim identity and trying to instill that in others. Sadly, it sounded quite different upon first reading -
If everywhere you go, a problem follows you, then the problem is you.
Accept it and figure out how to fix it. Take an assertiveness training course. Get some self esteem if that's the problem, but stop blaming others for a problem that no doubt comes from within.
To be walked all over, one has to first lay down.
Stand tall and the problem will go away.
Best Wishes
See, you really do take all responsibility away from the abuser completely and make it the abused one's fault by saying 'the problem is you'.
Funny thing is I couldn't figure out at first if you were talking about the abused, or the abuser, honestly! I really thought it could be great advice - the first part because it is the advise i would say to an abuser - the problem is them and not the fault of the abused - to stop blaming the abused for the problem is within them. (I am coming from the idea that so many abusers start the abuse by pointing out fault with their partners, and using that as an excuse to beat/rape/mistreat them so.)
Alright, this is such am emotive subject for all of us, I think, that have posted here and because of that, it is very difficult to not get into some states writing about it....and trying to see the issue from the abusers view - for of course that is a bit like meeting the criminal who has murdered your child, for example and trying to talk with them to get some closure - something I don't think I would want to do, but who knows. My abuser died from cancer a long and painful death and I never got to confront him and say, how could he do it?
But, in my mind, having grown up with an extremely strict father who could not really control his temper and also an uncle who could not really control his sexual impulses when it came to young girls, I saw and experienced a lot of the mind set from these two perspectives - and to me, yes, it's a control issue and the issue is the abuser can not control themselves - they can not stop themselves from giving in to their impulses. And the more they can't, then yes, I think it is like an addiction, the harder it gets to stop.
With addictions, my understanding is one way to stop the cycle is for the addict to hit rock bottom and only when there really is no other option will they seek help, or take advantage of help that is there if they want it. But what is rock bottom for an abuser? The idea of removing the abused (or of course the abused can remove themselves, but that really is hardly possible when they are a child, or are still stuck in that childlike helplessness if you grew up from abuse and became part of another abusing relationship as an adult....)
The levels of dysfunction and distortion on both sides run so deep, I honestly don't think a forum thread trying to get to the heart of this subject is doing it justice.
But I can try and express the last parts of my experience that might shed some more light -
Yes, get away from the abuser if at all possible in any way - then the target is not you, anyway. That will help the abuser. I have no idea who an abuser blames their behavior on....for of course not until they see they are responsible for their behavior can they ever hope to seek or want help for it.
The issue of the victim mentality, of the abused recreates this situation over and over again to understand it or unconsciously? Well, when you grow up, when I grew up and long before, of course I always wondered why? What had I done to create the situation? Even as a child, for of course my father always blamed me for his lack of control of his anger and I was expected to behave in the way that would not set him off....but I was a child! And he was the adult and I was never allowed to get or express my anger.
And so, the abused grows up with questions and seeks help often. And the help comes in the form of counselling often that says, "You were the victim and it is absolutely not your responsibility what happened to you and so you can let go of it because it's not yours to carry. That there is nothing wrong with you."
And you walk away from that say, wait a minute. Every selp help book, every spiritual course, every spiritual teacher and teaching says we are responsible for everything that happens in our lives - that we are always the ones who create our lives, even unconsciuosly. And what did I do to create this - why? So, the question of why is still here. And so you start studying the issue yourself and you learn, like some said here that a victim of abuse has an 'aura' if you will and that abusers will somehow pick up on it and know this target will do as they wish and keep quiet about it because they have been there before. I believe that.....and I was really interested, rune, in your portrayal finally and for the first time I have ever seen, the profile of the abused as being strong and not a weak person at all. That made sense to me. If anything, it seemed almost like being abused is clearly a stronger 'position' than the one abusing, for to lose control is not strong, but weak in my mind.....and also a very dangerous place to go, for everyone.
Do abused people grow up to be compassionate? Yes, quite often because if they want to understand their abuse, eventually they get to the wisdom that tells them the only way to heal is to truly and unbelievably forgive. And to do that, it takes more compassion than most of us have. And finally, for those of us who still believe we are responsible for everything that occurs in our lives, we then have to forgive ourselves for whatever we did that somehow attracted the abuse. It is the only way I think to heal and I truly think for abusers, this is the only way they too will learn other ways to deal with their impulses and stop their abusing - to really stop it. For themselves, and for those they hurt. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/21/2008 3:45:33 AM | | Sorry - double post - forgot to say - yes abusers can change! My father, once all his stresses were removed (raising four children all a year apart in age, with not enough funds or time or patience or tolerance).....he finally has become one very loving man. How? I don't know, I would have to ask him. I think he faced himself finally - all this targets grew up and left except my mother, though he only was verbally abusive with her......something in him gave it up and he faced his demons perhaps.....like we all have to do. And under all the anger was a very sensitive heart who was bursting to express his love, which he does these days more than most anyone else I know. SO, there is hope. There is help for the abuser - and the abused. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/21/2008 3:50:32 AM | The quote is one that applies to most any situation or relationship. It is intentionally open to interpretation.
I feel that you cannot change another person. The only one you can change is yourself. This holds true for one's situation, mentality or feeling. The only one you can change is yourself. It applies to not only the abuser but the abused. It does not place blame; as blame is a useless thing; it promotes bitterness not healing. Acceptance is the first step to healing any problem. You can't make something go away without first aknowledging it's existance. (addiction, abuse, lack of self esteem..........)
I changed myself. I changed my situation and I grew as a person. I no longer have PTSD and I'm not afraid anymore to leave my home. When I felt the world seemed out to get me, and that no matter what I did I'd always end up broken and beaten, I was afraid. Now I know better.
I'm glad that you understand my point of view. It's very hard emotionally on me to think that there are actually others who read my posts and think I'm blaming anyone. I'm not blaming, I'm accepting and trying to show how to move on and get past it.
I don't talk about my past very often, because yes, I do feel like a different person, almost like it happened to someone else. I can accept what I did (my own actions) that helped create situations where I was abused. This does not condone the abuser or my own actions. It negates them.
To talk openly of my past, invites those feelings back, as much as I wish they were gone. They will never be gone completely. I accept that.
If everywhere you go, a problem follows you, the problem is you. = change yourself because you can never ever change someone else, as much as you wish you could.
When I first had that thought (the quote) it was a very freeing feeling that came over me. No one taught me this, no one showed me, I had to live it and learn it for myself.
Peace | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/21/2008 6:19:14 AM | | Aspiring angel I stand corrected. I think I said that because the count is actually higher than 2. Its not just in my town its in the area in which I life. In my county and counties close by. We read about it in the paper so much it scares women because the police who are suppose to protect us are doing the same thing. So where do we turn to? It opened my eyes and made me feel like I have no one to go to for help since this past year dealing with abuse and police and the system. Its a very scary thing since I have no bothers or father to protect me. I live alone. yes I am scared. I have no idea what this nut ex is going to do next. I can't take the law into my own hands. God forbid I do something to protect myself. Please at least try to understand different peoples experiences and believe that we are telling the truth not making this up. As far as my comments to you I was only mirroring what you said about me and you even admitted your being sarcastic. I should not have to be under the microscope when I am trying to get this subject out so that people see what goes on and how things are not as they seem to the general public who wants to believe all is well with the world and abused women are being protected. I feel that abusers need some type of intense treatment to undo their need for power and control. Maybe a type of abusers boot camp. Like I saw on a talk show. If no one stands up to abusers they feel entitled to do what ever they like and no one is going to stop them. This is my point. As well as everyone reacts differently to being threatened in anyway. Rarely do women fight back. they are paralized with fear. Thinking if they do it will only make it worse. I didn't cover verbal abuse here but that too is just as bad. Sometimes worse because the mental damage done can last a life time. Bruses can heal. As far as my abuse advocate, this is her title you will have to argue with her about that one. I have no control over that. She works with domestic violence/safe homes, and has been an advocate for years. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/21/2008 6:44:25 AM | You people freak me out. Mention "Abuser" and you go "fvcking men". lol. Try to fit this into your simple head. Women abuse as much as men.
I know of a man who was abusive to his first wife and his 2 kids but one they were out of his life he stopped abusing and appears to have a happy second marriage with a woman whose kids he did not abuse. Is he still an abuser -- I think so, because the tendency would always be there and if he was with the targets again I don't doubt he'd be abusive towards them, from what I've heard of him. Oh what a nugget of "wisdom". Did it ever cross your mind that maybe.... just maybe... she lied about the abuse? Liars lie all the time, and abusers abuse all the time. It's not something they can control.
"If a woman says she's being abused, believe her." What a crock. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/21/2008 7:35:50 AM | | another one of those all women are victims threads ..... children are being victomized by having parents like this ...lock them both up...it takes two to fight..we should be protecring the children instead of the full grown adults who are free to move on ..or smarten up ..and stop taking sides.. | |
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