|
|
|
|
|
| Who can prove their [Thread Closed]
Posted: 5/20/2008 12:49:14 PM | I just wanted to see if anyone was able to take on this friendly challenge.
I will admit that I don't think it's a do-able challenge for those who believe in a supernatural deity, no matter your religion, and this is for obvious reasons. One reason, is that everybodys "god(s)" is invisible. Even if there maybe human fashioned representations of their "god(s)" like icons and statues or even the commom tactic (used by most people of differing religions) of pointing to the trees or mountains or just nature in general and claiming that as the proof of their "god(s)", holds no weight b/c anyone and everyone can use this as "proof" and so it proves nothing still. I think most people would be amazed at how similar we humans are in general. This becomes very clear when speaking about matters of ones religous faith. Even when there are differing beliefs among religions. The way we as humans have to approach religion in order to embrace it, is typically the same. Intrinsic to the belief in religion is the compulsion with in its system to use your mind (by way of faith or belief w/o proof) to accept it's beliefs and ideals while at the same time never using your mind (by way of skepticism and analysis) to look at it objectively, honestly and comparetively. What could be more man-made than this psychological trap? Theres literally no way to win. You either except the beliefs of a particular religion in order to be treated like part of the "fold" or group, or you reject the beliefs of a religion which immediately makes you an outsider who is lost (possibly evil) and an object for a religion to pity and feel sorry for (though most won't openly admit this). To top it all off the only redeeming quality one has who rejects a religion that teaches the "you must believe or perish" doctrine is the abilty one has to change his/her mind and bow down and humble themselves and admit they were foolish and in need of repentence. Wow!! Again I say, what could be more man-made than that? The only sure way to overcome this psychological trap is to muster the courage to push aside the fear that any particular religion may attach to thinking outside of its set boundaries. Once someone is able to do this an untapped sense of freedom seems to burst forth. As a matter of fact, anytime someone switches religions they have to go through this process. Sadly, in this case they put behind them the fears, punishments, and rewards of one religion to pick up more-or-less of the same from a new religion.
This is very interesting atuff. Observation is a powerful tool and you can't fix your life w/o it. Yes you may qoute me on that lol. :)
I could go on but I won't. Just keep in mind the brief problems I mentioned above if anyone chooses to reply to this post. I would like to see your thoughts and feedback from this. I am not interested in encouraging anyone to leave their religion. I do encourage everyone I meet and who may read this to think for themselves and draw their own conclusions about any topic or issue, w/ religion just being one of many.
Thanks again | |
|
| |
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/20/2008 4:13:13 PM | Which type of god(s)? The one known as the 'creator' of the universe? Would the universe exist without you? Think about it...... a different universe could exist without you... but this universe could not, because you're already here. Then are you not part of an unlimited number of 'pieces' creating this universe? Left or Right, Up or Down... does not everything you do create a different universe that would not have existed had you not chosen to do... or not do?
Most religions today are based on the simple idea that if someone else's wisdom/knowledge/power/experience/ability >>>>>>>>>>> my wisdom/knowledge/power/experience/ability then they = god(s). I do believe that every religion today was created by man as a reflection of a 'god' (per that formula). Would that formula make them an exceptional being, absolutely, perhaps not from 'around here', maybe... but the 'owner/ruler/lord/master' of my self... never.
Now saying all that, yes I believe there is one 'God', however, my definition of 'God' is something like 'All That Is'... so by that definition, there could only be 'A' or one 'everything'... | |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/20/2008 6:13:43 PM | Now saying all that, yes I believe there is one 'God', however, my definition of 'God' is something like 'All That Is'... so by that definition, there could only be 'A' or one 'everything'...
My sentiments exactly! Well...almost. I believe very strongly that We and All that is (including that which we still Don't know about) constitutes what truly is 'God'. (That statement alone is liable to start a Holy War...) Takin' in to consideration 'the Big Bang Theory', everything that exists came from a singularity in which everything was compressed. How are we to be sure that just simply because our physical bodies didn't exist, that the very code of our DNA (nothing but pure static energy if it resided within a zero-temporal existence), which determines who each One of us is, wasn't just part of a cluttered mess, but a very unique and distinct pattern. Now wait a minute, it is true that it was a nearly perfect configuration to perpetuate this existence...considerin' the very nature of the Universe itself, and how it is so delicately balanced that if only one thing failed or became unbalanced,the entire thing comes crashing down. So, it isn't too far fetched to say that there was an intelligence behind it all. I simply believe that it was Us. The Entire Collected thought and will of the Human Race. In a form that is beyond our comprehension because of our existence now...a linear-temporal one. How could we truly know what a zero-temporal existence would be like, if it is even possible? Impossible you may say, however, I say...No! Think about this. Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that thought and will are perpetuated solely by a temporal existence. With what little knowledge we have of Everything, i.e. Universe(s), there is no true way to say either way, is there? However, if you do take into account the existence of the two levels of Mind, Conscious and Subconscious, that by definition are two separate and yet connected states. One while awake...one while asleep. Sure, we have connected both of these to minuscule sized bio-electric impulse patterns that run throughout our entire bodies upon nerves. True! But...have you ever noticed that when you dream, that time truly has no meaning...not at least to the mind. How about when you are bored to tears, and time seems to nearly stand still. Physically impossible, but your mind still perceives the effect. What about when you are busy working (if you like or love you job that is) or having fun....Time Flies! Once again, only perception of the mind. But that's the thing...perception. Look at all of the beautiful art...structures...music...ideas...advancements upon ourselves and our own existence. Look how much has been accomplished simply because of 2 things...thought and will! Dreams...aspirations...emotions...all of these things are attirbuted to our minds alone, even though we need our bodies to accomplish tasks. Yet everything that we do would not exist without our thought and will. Can you seriously sit there and summarily dismiss the possibility considering the evidence that science has and has yet to fully explain. Tell me why do we cling to life so much. All of Us. Some of us it's this life...some of us it's the next...and then, some of Us it's each and every possible one. So many belief systems,religions, have come about throughout the ages and all somehow, no matter how from what viewpoint, point towards the idea of life! Even atheists believe that Life itself is precious, albeit it is only This one, but precious nonetheless. As for the rest,what I have described easily explains why so Many people believe with all their hearts that their is something out there...the complete linear-temporal existence of Us and Everything else. Whatever was...Whatever will be...ALL!!! We already know that the entire Universe operates on a multitude of mathmatical equations that keeps all in check...save Us! Well, our thought and will. When it comes right down to it, we are merely nothing more than natural machines developed within a 3 dimensional, linear-temporal existance. Controlled by thought and will alone. Why not the Universe, or at least, the perpetuation of it? I know...this is in no way conclusive proof, but as you can see...I have put more than mere 'Blind Faith' into this post. Ohh, but this is merely a footnote in what I fully believe, so...and don't forget these famous words, "I think, therefore, I am!"
Tell me though...Do you believe that you can discourage me from my 'Faith'??? | |
|
| |
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/21/2008 6:25:39 AM | That's a very interesting "god" concept you described. I've never considered the idea of the universe that you mentioned. I like it. It kind of reminds me of a few things that I am discussing in the book I'm working on. The "god" concept seems to be like a lot of other topics we humans discuss. It's all in the eye of the beholder. On another post I mentioned how "god" is a generic term and that I have yet to find anybodys religion where the deitys name is "god", and yet people use this term freely. I mentioned also that b/c of this free use of that term one never knows what someone means by using it.
Because there really is no universal accepted definition for the concept of "god(s)".
Three people can say the term "god" and have in mind totally contradictory ideas among themselves behind the use of that word. I think often the concept of "god(s)"
are based off of individual interpretation. I could make up a "god(s)" today and have faith in it, even while knowing I made it up. If one were to ask how I was able to have faith in this "god(s)" that I admit I made up, I could tell them that just b/c I made this "god(s)" up doesn't mean that this "god(s)" doesnt actually exist somewhere and therefore since I can't prove my "god(s)" doesnt exist I feel justified in my faith until someone can show me what "I WILL ACCEPT AS PROOF" against my belief.
Now the problem w/ this is very obvious . I've created a "god(s)" and subsequently made it impossible for someone to be able to provide proof that could change my mind or "open my eyes" to the fact that my "god(s)" doesnt exist or maybe even just the mere high improbability that my "god(s)" exists. Like I often say, "faith is a fixed fight". The nature of faith is why it can't be beaten. Thats why when there is a religous debate between differing religions or groups within a particular religion, every side or group wins. Whoever holds to their particular faith wins even if indisputable evidence has been provided against their particular position. No religion can "out faith" another one. Its really never about "god(s)" anyway when you understand the function of faith. Faith allows you to believe anything you decide to believe whether you were persuaded by fear or by rewards or vanity. More so than any particular religions belief system the "FUNCTION OF FAITH" is what seems most problematic.
Evidence is a neccessary non-factor in regards to how faith functions. I do say that the function of faith has its power in plucking away tediously at the emotional heartstrings of the human guitar or more specifically the human mind.
So from your standpoint what is here right now and what has been and will come is "god". Or maybe even your idea of "god" is "CHANGE"? Anyway thanks for your reply. Your thoughts were cool to take in :) | |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/21/2008 6:53:37 AM | That different people have different ideas and/or concepts of what "God" means does not negate the existence of "God" (or "god"), any more than the different images/ideas/concepts people have when I say "bridge" (who else is seeing the one over that little beck in the the Lake District, that perfectly sunny day?) negates the existence of bridges.
If Faith is a "fixed fight" and makes it impossible for the person with that faith to change and thus is a Bad Thing (implied), then how do you explain people who change their minds about their beliefs? Atheists become Christians (and vice versa), Protestants become Catholics (and vice versa), Agnostics become Atheists and Theists, Muslims convert to Christianity (and vice versa), Jews become Chrisitans (and vice versa), and the myriad of other combinations and re-combinations that beliefs produce. Note: this list is by no means exhaustive.
Furthermore, you show a lack of knowledge of what "faith" is. Better to ask those who have (and exercise their) faith than presume to know what it is and then tell them. I don't see my "faith" in your definition. But I do see the definition of someone who doesn't know what it is. | |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/21/2008 7:28:27 AM | Prove to another ndividual or to my self? Cant say I can prove it to all individuals, sheesh there are those that still deny the holocost, that OJ was innocent. Prove it to myself, I have done that.
Lots of circumstancial evidence I think,. Bible Prophecy coming true, the wonder of DNA , wow to find out I am programmed so to speak. Then there is the magnificance of creation, how man kind seems to all have an inherant need to search for God.
The proof itself that my God exists?
For me, the burden of proof required was fulfilled when I realized that , the story of Christ dying on the cross, sacrificing him self for me, could not come from man. It seems to be in man kinds basic nature, to want to worship a God, man sacrificing for that God.
Of all the stories about Gods though, carried down through man kinds history, the story of Christ on the cross nailed it for me. This story, the God sacrificed him self for me, a mere mortal. That concept is jsut not something that man could invent I think, as we all seem to be predisposed to believe the other way around.
My opinion for all its worth. | |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/21/2008 7:42:47 AM | Faith is defined as believing in that which you cannot see. While I cannot see God himself, I can see evidence of His Creation all around me. The birds, the trees, the tides, the mountains, seas, and flowers....Everywhere I look, everywhere I go, I experience His presence.
Years ago, when I first came to faith, my then bf started questioning the sanity of my newfound belief system, even though he had experienced the positive changes that new faith had brought to my life. A good friend told me to explain my blind (his word, not mine) faith the following way: While we canèt see the wind, we can see the effects it has on the environment around it, blowing leaves around, lifting your hair as you walk along.
I cannot believe, and be comfortable with that belief, that the world just exploded into being. Nor can I believe that man evolved from the apes. My father was a staunch Darwinist, and my early years were spent listening to his arguments re why he believed what he did. Even so, my father could debate the truths of the Bible with any and all of our Christian neighbors who challenged him. He read the Bible from end to end at least 6 times while I was growing up. I canèt help thinking that he was searching for answers.
What was it that started me on a search for truthÉ It was a near death experience that I had during a cardiac arrest. I saw the light and heard the voice telling me it was not my time to go. Over the next few years I began asking questions of people who held various beliefs. Christianity was the only one that didnèt leave me totally baffled, wondering if my acquaintances had lost their ability to think clearly. As the years have passed, my faith and trust in God...and thankfulness for the gift of His Son, increases and changes my heart and the way I interact with those around me.
Sorry for the punctuation errors...something wrong with my keyboard. | |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/21/2008 9:11:37 AM | | Modern Science is founded on the existence of Complex Numbers, which are imaginary and cannot be shown to exist, because they are imaginary. So I'd have a BIG problem if I needed to prove anything without relying on "invisible" things. | |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/21/2008 11:36:19 AM |
Because there really is no universal accepted definition for the concept of "god(s)".
There may be no universally accepted definition, but by use of my intellect I can discern that God is love and light, and God cannot have any hate or darkness. Jesus explained this simply by making it known that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand...And if God was divided then God could not be eternally self existant. In fact evil in itself cannot eternally exist, this is logically impossible when a person grasps that evil's end is always death. So if there are forces of evil and death at work then they cannot be self existant. Death cannot eternally self exist, it is a contradiction to being self existant itself.
Love on the other hand can self exist because the end of love is not death, but is life...So love does eternally self exist, but evil cannot...Thereforebecause God is eternally self existant or God wouldn't be God...God can only be love.
Evidence is a neccessary non-factor in regards to how faith functions.
Maybe for you it is, but this is certainly not true in my case..Iwas given the evidence of God through a manifestation of His power and authority in the Spirit, and that was when I was given faith...My faith is a result of the evidence I have been given.
so there is your answer, I have proof of God w/o having to muster up the faith to make the proof a reality. faith isa result of the proof in my case, and not the proof itself.
| |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/21/2008 5:07:49 PM | Modern Science is founded on the existence of Complex Numbers, which are imaginary and cannot be shown to exist, because they are imaginary. So I'd have a BIG problem if I needed to prove anything without relying on "invisible" things.
I don't understand what you mean by not being able to show that imaginary numbers exist. Certainly you're aware of the Fundamental Theorem of Algebra? | |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/21/2008 5:19:45 PM | If you come to my house and look in my fridge you can see The Flying Spaghetti Monster for yourself.
He really does look like how he is portrayed on the internet. Except mine has a blue fuzzy beard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster | |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/21/2008 6:41:58 PM | Your quite welcome, Soda! Remind me sometime to share my thoughts on the possibility of what is to come...that is assuming that you are somewhat versed in quantum mechanics and quantum theory.  | |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/21/2008 6:47:13 PM | I worship his Saurian Holiness RaptorJesus
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/1/1d/Raptor_Jesus_5.jpg
In all seriousness, God as defined by the three "faiths of the book", namely Judaim, Christianity and Islam is impossible to prove philosophically. It is possible to provide arguments for the existence of a Deism-style God.
St. Thomas Aquinas devised a clever proof that some sort of higher existence must be present. To ab lib his argument, essentially the universe can be viewed as a causality chain. This chain must have had an origin. This origin can be defined as God.
A leap of faith while logically unacceptable is at least somewhat defensible. Rene Descartes theorized that the only thing we can be certain of is our own existence. We must take a leap of faith on one other assumption being true in order to know anything else. At least two truths are needed to derive a third. For Descartes this accepted assumption was the existence of God. For many these days its the truth of mathematics.
I would challenge folks to prove that God does NOT exist. Its equally as difficult, if not more difficult. I personally follow agnosticism. I think (belief is useless, thought is valuable) that it is impossible to prove God's existence either way. If God is a fully all-things being than by definition he must exist independently of our space-time existence, else he would not be supreme. By existing independently of space-time he is therefore completely unobservable and incomprehensible to the human existence, making his existence impossible to refute or affirm.
Disclaimer; I'm using the male pronoun for God as a force of habit (raised Catholic), I think that if God did exist, God would be entirely genderless, neither male nor female. | |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/21/2008 6:55:20 PM |
I cannot believe, and be comfortable with that belief, that the world just exploded into being. Nor can I believe that man evolved from the apes. My father was a staunch Darwinist, and my early years were spent listening to his arguments re why he believed what he did. Even so, my father could debate the truths of the Bible with any and all of our Christian neighbors who challenged him. He read the Bible from end to end at least 6 times while I was growing up. I canèt help thinking that he was searching for answers.
Darwinism or more accurately the belief in natural selection (that's Darwin's contribution after all) as the chief mechanism in evolution (something Darwin didn't postulate, he merely proposed a theory as to how evolution works) is not incompatible with faith. The Catholic Church's official stance is that evolution is likely correct and is guided by the hands of God. Evolution is only incompatible with Biblical Literalism/Fundamentalism in which all the text in the Bible is believed to be absolutely true.
In short, there's nothing wrong with believing in God/Jesus but also thinking that complex life evolved from lesser forms of life. | |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/21/2008 8:52:11 PM | RE msg 12 by CountIbli:
I don't understand what you mean by not being able to show that imaginary numbers exist. Certainly you're aware of the Fundamental Theorem of Algebra? Certainly. But the Fundamental Theorem of Algebra takes the assumption that Complex Numbers exist, which cannot be proved empirically. It must be accepted on faith that logic is greater than empirical and scientific evidence, as no-one has ever found a Complex Number in the real world. Are you not aware of this? | |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/22/2008 4:38:57 AM | | A number of theistic philosophers have tried to prove that God or some sort of metaphysical divine 'First Principle' exists, without appealing to a purely fideist approach. You might want to look at their arguments (which can be found in most good introductory philosophy books) and evaluate them for yourself. | |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/22/2008 4:56:11 AM | | I belive in God even though I cant see him and I will tell you why. I have always hated watching church on tv. never would do it. and I got this real bad ear infection. I got medicine from doctor. well it did not work on my ear infection. I was one of thoise people who always said God can heal people if he wants to but i never really believed he would. so one monring im sitting watching tv and all the sudden im find myself watching church program. for some reaosn I could not change it I actually wanted to watch it which was very very odd for me. so my ear infection had gotten worse and I siad out loud oh shit my ear infection is back and I siad I was gonna call doctor and get antoher appointment after this church program was over. well at the end of the program the preacher was telling about people who were gonna be healed. out of nowhere this man said someone witha litle ear infection is gonna be healed and instantly my ear infection was gone. I did not have to call doctor. it amazed me then and it amazes me still today. God is what cured me. As I never belived god would heal a person but at same time knew he could. God showed me he not only can but does. my ear infection did not magically disappear on its own. I belive to this day God is why i had to watch the program ..God had a little someting in it to teach me. My faith about healing was lacking until that day. I was in such disbelief that i called my husband at work then my mom then my sister jsut telling everyone what just happend to me. | |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/22/2008 7:22:23 AM | Hey Consigliere31 thank you for your response. I must bring up your statement about you using your intellect to discern that a "god" exists. The word intellect as defined by the American Heritage College dictionary is as follows: 1.a. the ability to learn and reason; the capacity for knowledge and understanding.b. The ability to think abstractly or profoundly.2. A person of great intellectual ability.
Just wondering how you feel about others who use their "intellect" as well, yet draw very different conclusions. This is the case w/ those who are religious and non-religious. I don't think most people would dare say they don't use their "intellect" or mind and just jump head first (no pun intended) into their particular religion or beliefs, as if thinking it through never crossed their mind.
I would also respectfully ask you whether you believe "your" intellect and others who share the same religious conclusions as you, is some how more credible or superior than others. This is a real question and by no means do I intend to show any disrespect by it. I just hope you have considered the problem this causes if you AND others who don't share your convictions answer yes to that question.
I also noticed that you mentioned a few of your ideas about the "god" you believe in.I wasn't clear of what your "god's" name might be or if your "god" has a name. Correct me if I'm wrong but, your "god" sounds like a version of the "god" of the bible.
I won't assume to know what concept of "god" you're speaking of. I will, however, let you know that I am a former "christian"(another word thats in the eye of the beholder) as of about 4 years ago, and some of your statements have an all too familiar ring to them.
If what you have stated in your response is your proof of your "god" it is unfortunately the same kind of a response I've heard from a lot of people who believe in a personal "god" concept no matter their religion.
I have a sneaking suspicion that though you may not admit it or notice it your "faith" is the ultimate factor in your acceptance of your "god". I do realize that you said that a manifestation of your "god's" power in your life preceded your "faith". But what makes this a little suspect to me is that you also mentioned that your faith was a gift from your "god" even after he proved "himself" to you. I do find it interesting your "god" singled you out to make known his existence and demonstrate his power and then afterwards still felt the(in my opinion contradictory) need to give you "faith" as if your mind wasn't able to be sure of "the true god" showing up to remove all your doubts by a one on one encounter.I just don't see where faith would be necessary or make any sense AFTER this fact.
For example, if I saw and interacted w/ an alien, I wouldn't say I have faith that at least one alien exists. Since I've actually met one alien, faith would only come into play if I claimed more than one alien exists though I never encountered them. I used aliens on purpose in this analogy though I could've easily said unicorns or someones "god" that you don't belive in.
I'm sure you got the jist of my point though.:)
Lets say you encountered someone who had an almost identical experience as you, yet the difference was in the concept of the"god" they recieved faith to know really exists. So basically same situation and experience but a different concept of "god". I wonder if the two of you, would say the other one, was decieved.
Just a thought that I hope brings into focus the point I was making in my initial post.
In closing I do want you to be sure that I am in know way doubting the reality of your experience but rather I'm skeptical of the explanation and conclusion you drew from it. I no doubt am sure you realize the necessity of being skeptical. We as humans HAVE TO BE to our benefit as a SAFEGUARD from being decieved whether the deciver has ill intent or is merely just ignorant.
Like the example I gave about someone coming to you w/ the same story you have but a different "god", the chances of you choosing their experience over your own is VERY slim. You naturally will be skeptical.I would even go as far as to say that you would be skeptical even if you never had that experience, but new someone who did. Seeing how you stated you didnt get "faith" until your "god" gave it to you AFTER revealing himself to you first.
Hey Thanks Again :) | |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/22/2008 8:40:32 AM | You cannot prove anything using faith
I believe in God because I have had experiences which lead me to believe... but I totally recognize that that isn't proof.
I do not project my beliefs outward as though everyone should believe as I do... we all have the freedom to structure with our beliefs the grey portions of life any way we so choose...
When there is no proof one way or another, we can either believe, not believe or we can suspend judgement until proof is apprehended...
But with all of the above.. you are still making a choice as to what you believe and it is still based on a lack of proof no matter how you look at it..
In that regard we are all the same :) | |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/22/2008 8:56:07 AM |
Hey Consigliere31 thank you for your response. I must bring up your statement about you using your intellect to discern that a "god" exists. The word intellect as defined by the American Heritage College dictionary is as follows: 1.a. the ability to learn and reason; the capacity for knowledge and understanding.b. The ability to think abstractly or profoundly.2. A person of great intellectual ability.
Just wondering how you feel about others who use their "intellect" as well, yet draw very different conclusions. This is the case w/ those who are religious and non-religious. I don't think most people would dare say they don't use their "intellect" or mind and just jump head first (no pun intended) into their particular religion or beliefs, as if thinking it through never crossed their mind.
I would also respectfully ask you whether you believe "your" intellect and others who share the same religious conclusions as you, is some how more credible or superior than others. This is a real question and by no means do I intend to show any disrespect by it. I just hope you have considered the problem this causes if you AND others who don't share your convictions answer yes to that question.
Sodapoppi every once in awhile I correspond with someone who is on the same wavelength as me, and this is never on all things....so I completely understand that everyone including myself is operating within the confines of thier own understanding and intellect. And as I understand, all things are of God...so each of us is guided in thhier own steps by God....whatever these steps may be.
I never jumped head first into a religion, in fact most of the time in my Spiritual walk, I have spent running away from God and trying to ignore Him, even to this day...though it may not seem like this in the volume of my posts....Believe this, I am a rebel, and I am a rebel in the kingdom of God, and I fight against what God is doing continually. I never volunteered for service to God or for salvation, God seems to have taken the liberty of making me a volunteer, against my will. Sounds crazy I know, but if I had it my way I would probably not have chosen a christian, especially if it meant I couldn't be a sinner any longer. At the time sin was my reason for living, though I never really considered anything i did as a sin until the law proved it to be. Consequences of sin as far as going to hell, never entered my mind, I didn't care, I had the attitude that if I did go to hell, I would kick satan out of his throne and take over and have a big party with my bro's who would also be there with me. Going to church just made me feel like a hypocrite, and I never felt as though I deserved to be classified as christian, it seemed as though everyone else belonged there except for me....
In any event, I have come to realize, that if we want proof of God and desire to be shown the reality of God...it is through much trial and tribulation that we will enter His kingdom. Our intellect does not bring us closer to God, our journey through the trials and tribulations of this life's experiences is what brings us to a place where we will turn towards God.
I think that deep down probably everyone considers thier intellectual opinion to be correct and superior in the fact that they wouldn't believe what they did unles they thought it true, and truth is always considered the superior opinion. If I didn't consider my beliefs to be true, then I wouldn't classify them as superior. And if i didn't consider them to be true, then I really couldn't honestly say that I believed them.
I also noticed that you mentioned a few of your ideas about the "god" you believe in.I wasn't clear of what your "god's" name might be or if your "god" has a name. Correct me if I'm wrong but, your "god" sounds like a version of the "god" of the bible.
I won't assume to know what concept of "god" you're speaking of. I will, however, let you know that I am a former "christian"(another word thats in the eye of the beholder) as of about 4 years ago, and some of your statements have an all too familiar ring to them.
When I had my first experience with God the name Jesus was on my lips and when I spoke His name, the power and authority of God filled the jail cell I was in and permeated my entire being....anyone who has experienced thier soul being ripped from the kingdom of darkness and brought into the kingdom of light, in the dramatic way that i experienced...will be convinced of the Spiritual authority in the name of Jesus. In other languages His name is pronounced differently..but that is irrelevant.
If what you have stated in your response is your proof of your "god" it is unfortunately the same kind of a response I've heard from a lot of people who believe in a personal "god" concept no matter their religion.
I have a sneaking suspicion that though you may not admit it or notice it your "faith" is the ultimate factor in your acceptance of your "god". I do realize that you said that a manifestation of your "god's" power in your life preceded your "faith". But what makes this a little suspect to me is that you also mentioned that your faith was a gift from your "god" even after he proved "himself" to you. I do find it interesting your "god" singled you out to make known his existence and demonstrate his power and then afterwards still felt the(in my opinion contradictory) need to give you "faith" as if your mind wasn't able to be sure of "the true god" showing up to remove all your doubts by a one on one encounter.I just don't see where faith would be necessary or make any sense AFTER this fact.
For example, if I saw and interacted w/ an alien, I wouldn't say I have faith that at least one alien exists. Since I've actually met one alien, faith would only come into play if I claimed more than one alien exists though I never encountered them. I used aliens on purpose in this analogy though I could've easily said unicorns or someones "god" that you don't belive in.
I'm sure you got the jist of my point though.:)
I don't believe in blind faith, to me that is a contradiction...if I didn't have an experience with God then neither would I have any faith. Remember the woman who was inflicted with a blood clot for 12 years, she touched Jesus and was healed....Jesus said her faith made her well.......but her faith did not come alive until she was in the presence of Christ. If it was merely her faith, then she should have been able to heal herself 12 years earlier when she first became inflicted....do you see what I am getting at. The faith I received is what keeps me pressing towards God in confidence that God will do all that He has promised to do in His word. Faith helps me to understand His word, and faith allows me to walk in the Spirit. But my faith is not in whether God is real or not, I don't need faith for that...the demons also believe in God's existance, and tremble. Faith is not about believing that God exists, faith is about knowing that He has fulfilled His promises.
Lets say you encountered someone who had an almost identical experience as you, yet the difference was in the concept of the"god" they recieved faith to know really exists. So basically same situation and experience but a different concept of "god". I wonder if the two of you, would say the other one, was decieved.
Just a thought that I hope brings into focus the point I was making in my initial post.
I don't like to judge another's servant, because what God has planned for them in this life is not what God has for me in this life's journey...so respectfully I try to consider that everyone is exacly where God wants them to be...
His plan is perfect! | |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/22/2008 9:29:01 AM | Hi Romanticoptimist.Thanks for your response. I assure you that in no way do I want to leave the impression that the mere disagreements about the concepts of "god(s)" negates the possibilty of the concept of "god(s)".
My point was merely to see who could prove their "god(s)" exists minus the use or function of "faith".
I did want to make clear the propblem that people who believe in particular concepts of "god(s)" do have. I also purposely wanted to point out the very interesting and often overlooked similarity people have in regards to how they defend their "faith".
In regards to your statement that I lack knowledge of what "faith" is, I must refute that claim in two ways.
First will be w/ the admission that I used to be one of the religous or "god" believing "faithful". "Faith" as a matter of fact was my strongpoint. If anyone ever had doubts I would be first to attempt to comfort and encourage them w/ reminders of how our particular "god" is loving and cares about us and is in control and will never leave us and answer all of our questions in due time. Quick observation, there are people who are just like I was in most religions right now.
If anyone ever doubts their religious beliefs or beliefs in their "god(s)" they will typically always find someone to steer them clear of "turning away" from their "faith" within their religion. Assuming that the person who feels this way isn't too scared to voice this doubt publicly. After all , pretending isn't just for kids.Pretending can very easily be a benefit when you want to fit in somewhere or have more pull in a particular community, or even if pretending just helps us to avoid being an outcast or object of predjudice and ridicule.
Lastly, let's take a look at the definition of the word faith as defined by
the American heritage dictionary:
faith n. 1.a. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, an idea, or a thing. 2. Belief that doesnt rest on logical proof or material evidence. 3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance. 4. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will. 5.The body of dogmam of a religion.6.A set of principles or beliefs.
Seeing how the only two definitions that refer to a belief in "god(s)" are the ones numbered "4" and "5" I wonder if your definition of faith is defined by Any one of the definitions given?
Also you'll notice definition #4 uses the generic term "God" ,which as I previously stated is not the name of anyones "god(s)", so wouldnt any and everyone who used this definition be able to insert the "god(s)" they claim exists there?
This goes back to my point of how "faith functions". No ones "faith" can be more credible or superior due to the nature of how faith functions.Which makes the claims about the object of ones faith being aceptable,correct,and superior, all in the eyes of the beholder. Thats why I stand by my point that "faith is a fixed fight" where the faithful can't lose as long as they stick to their "faith".
I did metion in a previous post how faith is a fixed fight until one decides
to think outside of the boundarys set by their faith and religion. This is how people are able to convert from one religion to another or simply just deconvert. These two things are only possible if one chooses to push aside the fear of the repercussions of doubt laid out by their particular religion and decide to consider conclusions other than what their religion dictates.
No religion may claim a monopoly on "faith" due to its mere function and definition.Contrary to popular belief and usage the word "faith" isn't owned by religion. The "object" of ones "faith" is what seems to be the most pressing thing we as humans should discuss.
I hope I was clear in making my point this time. I do not ever intend to offend.
Thanks again :) | |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/22/2008 10:30:58 AM | Hey Avalanche325. Thanks for the reply. I appreciate your insight. I am curious to find out why you think that disproving "god(s)" would be equally as or even more difficult.
Well to put things in context a little I would say that certain concepts of "god(s)" could never be proven based on these "god(s)" proclaimed attributes and characteristics.
Speaking of mathematics raise a very interesting questions. Does 1+1 always equal 2? If not, why not? If so, why so? I could use "faith" to come up w a religous reason and a non-religous reason. They both could be equally wrong however.
My main concern is the methods we all use to draw conclusions. Myself included by the way.
Most people when speaking about their "god(s)" could careless whether or not someone elses "god(s) really exists or not. The proof of this statement is that most people don't reserve judgement on the "god(s) concept until they have seriously studied and contemplated the possibility of all "god(s)" that people have beleived and do believe in. We know lifes a little to short for that. :)
I've been studying religion since I was sixteen. I notice you said you are agnostic. When people ask me what I am I tell them "I am of the human species, but you can call me a Man-o-saur" lol... I've been called an atheist before. I don't know if many people consider this but, "everybody is an athesit to somebody". I also tell people that non-belief in a "god(s)" concept is the state we're born in. So anytime a child gets taught about a religion or a "god(s)" and they accept it, they have been converted from atheism(non-belief in deity's not rejection of deity's).
I just think its odd that many people jump to "a superior in all ways and loving " being conclusion. In my study of diffrent "god(s) over the years I've always found it interesting what kind of "god(s)" have the most emotional appeal w/ different kinds of people. i recently shared w/ my friends a concept of "god" that no one would want to believe in even if this "god" were to manifest him/her/itself. But I'll go into this in another thread I was thinking about starting. :) All who read this may know the direction I'm going w/ that idea.
Lastly I guess I'll just say that if someone were to describe their "god(s)"
so that we could have some sort of mental picture of whatthis "god(s)" is like mentaly or physically, we would all have a better chance of seeing if this kind of "god(s)" could be proven. However, i'm afraid that the gigantic
inevitable loophole called the"supernatural" will make this a pointless venture. After all who can trap with logic a being that has supernatural powers. Logic smoglic lol..
Maybe I should be a "SUPER-THEIST". I could say I believe in everybodys "god(s)". Because being a mere human I'm just not equipt to "trap" or analyze w/ logic anyones "god(s)" that has supernatural powers. I simply just can't win that discussion. But really who could? So I guess thats it. I beleive in everbodys "god(s)" until I can overcome ALL religions who have "god(s)" who have supernatural powers with my locic and reason. :)
Now ofcourse this is obviously ridiculous but I hope the point I wanted to make shined through..
Thanks again :) | |
|
| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/22/2008 11:05:36 AM | Hey Sassyaquarius. Thanks for your response as well. I noticed you said that "you cannot prove anything using faith".
I do think you can prove CERTAIN things one way or the other once you have clear and detailed information about the object or situation in question.
The problem seems to be when some one describes something too vague to be able to grasp a clear understanding of what they're saying or why they've drawn a particular conclusion. This is not an issue that is specific to religion alone, but is true in regards to any topic. So i hope no one thinks I'm picking on religion or their "god(s)".
What I stated in my initial post was to challenge all who thought they may be able to prove their "god(s)" to do so w/o using the word "faith" or anything w/ its definition. (I provided the American Heritage definition of faith in a previous reply to someone else). Nevertheless it does seem impossible as I stated. I think some may have overlooked my initial points b/c they still resorted to bringing faith right back into the discussion.
I specifically mentioned the exclusion of "faith" in this challenge on purpose b/c outside of this exclusion I pretty much knew the answers I would get. Interestingly enough, I stil got the responses I would expect as if I didn't mention to exclude ones "faith" as proof in this challenge.
I would like to state that we all could come up w/ our own version of a superior being ,and whether or not we gave intimate details about this being or not, no one would be ever to refute the beings existence. Because we have in our possession and at our disposal the "supernatural ace of spaids" that can trump any cards of logic that someone may hold in their hands. Thats because a"supernatural and superior in all ways" being CANNOT be refuted or disproved.
I do agree w/ you that for the most part we are all the same and I suspect more than we may even realize.
Thanks again:) | |
|
|
|
Home
login 
