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 Author Thread: McCain And Obama Are No Different On Iraq
 RonPaulGal

Joined: 3/2/2008
Msg: 1
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History
McCain And Obama Are No Different On Iraq
Posted: 5/21/2008 6:11:23 PM
EXCELLENT article outlining exactly why I have
been stating there is no difference in the "top" candidates:

http://www.jbs.org/node/8133

McCain And Obama Are No Different On Iraq
By Patrick Krey
Published: 2008-05-20 20:56

Establishment leaders would have us believe that Presidential Candidates John
McCain and Barack Obama offer vastly dissimilar proposals for Iraq but in reality,
there is virtually no difference between their plans.

In a recent major speech, Republican Presidential Candidate John McCain outlined
his vision for the future and described what he desires to have achieved by end of
a first term in office. The defining portion of the speech was his description of what
he hoped the situation in Iraq would be, under his leadership, by 2013.

“By January 2013, America has welcomed home most of the servicemen and women
who have sacrificed terribly so that America might be secure in her freedom. ... The
United States maintains a military presence there, but a much smaller one, and it does
not play a direct combat role.”

Senator McCain and other leading Republicans would have American voters believe
that this is a drastic change from the “cut and run” policies offered by Democratic
candidates like Barack Obama. Likewise, Democratic leaders promote the notion that
their candidate offers a plan for immediate withdrawal. They must be hoping that
voters do not listen to what their candidate actually says.

Barack Obama, the alleged peace candidate of the 2008 elections, was asked if he
would pledge to have all U.S. troops out of Iraq by 2013. His response was: “I think
it’s hard to project four years from now and I think it would be irresponsible. We do
not know what contingency will be out there. … I don’t want to make promises, not
knowing what the situation‘s going to be three or four years out.”

The alleged peace candidate who has made his opposition to the Iraq war a centerpiece
of his campaign cannot even promise that the U.S. will be out of Iraq by 2013! Senator
Obama also has stated: “This withdrawal would be gradual, and would keep some US
troops in the region to prevent a wider war and go after Al Qaeda and other terrorists.”
Even Obama’s own website proclaims, “he will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our
embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep
troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda.”
One has to wonder if Obama plagiarized those plans from McCain himself due to the
extreme similarities.

Perhaps the similarity in approach to foreign policy can be explained by the fact that
they both shared the same foreign policy advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski. Brzezinski is a
committed globalist, one of the most instrumental members of the Council on Foreign
Relations and a founding member of the Trilateral Commission. Volumes more can be
written about Brzezinski’s hawkish stands on foreign policy and his disdain for non
-interventionism as well as his desire for global governance. What is important to
note is that Republican John McCain had Brzezinski as his foreign policy advisor for
his 1999-2000 Presidential campaign. Now Barack Obama has Brzezinski as one of
his principal advisors. It should be a red flag to the American public when their two
choices for Presidential office are so casually sharing advisors.

Another matter, which should be a concern to those who might actually believe
Senator Obama is the peace candidate, are his stated desires to expand the U.S.
military as well as intervene in Africa, another policy initiative that he shares with
Senator McCain. Combine this with the fact that the U.S. has more troops in Iraq
now than it did before Democrats took control of Congress and it becomes much
harder to perceive the Democrats as the self-proclaimed party of peace.

Both Senators McCain and Obama share the same disregard for the U.S. Constitution
and embrace the globalism and interventionism that has bankrupted our great nation.
These similarities do not end with foreign policy. From illegal immigration to global
warming, both John McCain and Barack Obama seem to be walking in lockstep. It
appears that another Presidential election is upon us where the two candidates are
virtually indistinguishable from one another when it comes to the most pressing issues
of the day.
==========================
Patrick Krey, M.B.A., J.D., L.L.M., is an attorney in New York.
 evnstevn

Joined: 1/11/2008
Msg: 2
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History
McCain And Obama Are No Different On Iraq
Posted: 5/21/2008 7:00:43 PM
Nowdays politicians disagree over the periphery of issues, yep. Their biggest job, imo, is making the right policy calls and acting as our national pastor, the way Clinton did. Despite his shortcomings, he made the right call 90% of the time and wow he could give an off the cuff speech. He was probably one of the five smartest presidents.

 itechman63

Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 3
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History
McCain And Obama Are No Different On Iraq
Posted: 5/21/2008 7:21:10 PM
McCain doesn't talk about what he thinks will and has to happen in those 4 years for it to be reality. Just in 4 years he sees happy Iraqis in Levis and Dale Jr. hats waving goodbye as our boys come home.

Obama acknowledges that we don't know what brings the best possible conclusion within a timeframe.

I think the writer made the opposite point that he intended.
 glamour6

Joined: 4/7/2008
Msg: 4
McCain And Obama Are No Different On Iraq
Posted: 5/22/2008 2:44:51 AM
"McCain and Obama Are No Different on Iraq" ???. I think the continued success in Iraq and troop levels will depend on events that take place on the ground which as Generals have pointed out to us change continually so I think that McCain will listen to the Generals on the ground as Bush has. I don't think anyone wants a massive amount of troops in Iraq a day longer than necessary but I think it would be a mistake to pull troops out too soon which is something that I think Obama would do for his constituants who he has promised to get us out of Iraq. But then again Obama is from the party that promised us they would end the war two years ago so the pressure will be on him from the anti-war crowd. One thing a candidate doesn't want to do is promise to withdraw our troops from Iraq without first taking into consideration the safety of the troops left behind.
 jed456

Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 5
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History
McCain And Obama Are No Different On Iraq
Posted: 5/22/2008 4:17:59 AM
Updated | 10:59 a.m. COLUMBUS, Ohio — Senator John McCain declared on Thursday that most American troops will be home from Iraq by 2013 and that Iraq will be a functioning democracy with only “spasmodic’’ episodes of violence, a striking departure from his refusal so far to set a date for U.S. withdrawal.
In a speech in the heart of Ohio, a major battleground state in the fall election, Mr. McCain set forth a sweeping, extraordinarily positive vision of what the world will look like 2013, when he says he will have been in the White House for four years.
“By January 2013, America has welcomed home most of the servicemen and women who have sacrificed terribly so that America might be secure in her freedom,’’ Mr. McCain said at the Columbus Convention Center. “The Iraq War has been won. Iraq is a functioning democracy, although still suffering from the lingering effects of decades of tyranny and centuries of sectarian tension. Violence still occurs, but it is spasmodic and much reduced.’’
The United States, Mr. McCain added, “maintains a military presence there, but a much smaller one, and it does not play a direct combat role.’’
During his primary battle, Mr. McCain frequently accused Mitt Romney of setting a timetable for withdrawing troops from Iraq, a charge Mr. Romney denied.
In comments to reporters after his speech, Mr. McCain insisted that his speech should not be interpreted as setting a date for withdrawal, and that he was simply projecting victory in Iraq. He took issue with a reporter who characterized his speech as a “magic carpet ride,’’ saying: “I don’t think it has anything to do with fantasy, I think it has everything to do with setting goals and achieving.’’

In his speech, Mr. McCain also projected that “concerted action’’ by the world’s democracies will have persuaded Russia and China to cooperate in persuading Iran to abandon its nuclear ambitions and North Korea to discontinue its own.
In Afghanistan, he said, an increase in actionable intelligence will have led to the capture or death of Osama bin Laden, and “there is no longer any place in the world al Qaeda can consider a safe haven.’’ He added: “There still has not been a major terrorist attack in the United States since September 11, 2001.’’
On domestic policy, Mr. McCain projected that the United States will have experienced several years of “robust economic growth;’’ a reduction in the corporate tax rate; and the beginning of a phase out of the alternative minimum tax.
Mr. McCain also pledged to appoint Democrats to his administration, hold weekly press conferences and take questions in Congress, much as the prime minister of Great Britain does in Parliament.
In a clear criticism of President Bush, Mr. McCain also said that “when we make errors, I will confess them readily, and explain what we intend to do to correct them.’’
The Democrats responded that Mr. McCain was living in a dream world.
“The reality behind Senator McCain’s new rhetoric is that his plans either ignore the problems he identifies or actually makes them worse,'’ Howard Dean, the chairman of the Democratic National Committee, said in a statement shortly before Mr. McCain began his speech.


Okay
 jed456

Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 6
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History
McCain And Obama Are No Different On Iraq
Posted: 5/22/2008 4:24:33 AM
Mccain....Voted in 2002 to authorize invasion, still supportive; in favor of troop increase; against a timetable for troop withdrawal, but projected he would have most U.S. forces home by 2013.
VOTED YES IN 2002, STILL SUPPORTIVE
"I agreed with the President's difficult decision to go to war in Iraq. I remain fully supportive of his determination not to leave Iraq until the freely elected government of that country and its armed forces are able to defend their country from foreign and domestic enemies intent on thwarting the will of the Iraqi people to create a civil society in which the rights and security of all Iraqis are protected."

— In a Statement, Aug. 25, 2006

IN FAVOR OF TROOP INCREASE
A vocal proponent of increasing troop levels.

"I've been a bit surprised at the level, at the amount of progress that they've achieved with only two, and now three, of the five brigades. I've also been not surprised but sorry that some of this activity has gone outside of Baghdad."

— In an interview with The New York Times, April 14, 2007
AGAINST A TIMETABLE FOR TROOP WITHDRAWAL, BUT PROJECTED HE WOULD HAVE MOST AMERICAN FORCES HOME BY 2013
"The following are conditions I intend to achieve. ... By January 2013, America has welcomed home most of the servicemen and women who have sacrificed terribly so that America might be secure in her freedom. The Iraq War has been won. ... The United States maintains a military presence there, but a much smaller one, and it does not play a direct combat role."

— Speech on his hopes for his first term, May 15, 2008
Earlier, said political settlement could be achieved only after violence was contained. Said that the United States was succeeding in Iraq, but that there was still "a long way to go."

"I have no Plan B. ... I cannot give you a good alternative because if I had a good alternative, maybe we could consider it now. Every alternative that I know of that is keyed to a date for withdrawal, which that would dictate, is chaos in the region. And genocide."

— In an interview with The New York Times, April 14, 2007

Obama....Opposed invasion from the beginning; opposed troop increase; withdraw one or two brigades a month to finish within 16 months.
"I know that invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East and encourage the worst rather than best impulses in the Arab world and strengthen the recruitment arm of al Qaeda. I am not opposed to all wars, I am opposed to dumb wars."

— Speech to Illinois state legislature, Oct. 2002

OPPOSED TROOP INCREASE
"Too many lives have been lost and too many billions have been spent for us to trust the President on another tried and failed policy opposed by generals and experts, Democrats and Republicans, Americans and even the Iraqis themselves. It is time for us to fundamentally change our policy."

— On the Senate Floor, Jan. 30, 2007

WITHDRAW ONE OR TWO BRIGADES A MONTH TO FINISH WITHIN 16 MONTHS
Leave limited forces to combat terrorism; forces would not be involved in deterring Iranian involvement. Troops would train Iraqi forces only if there was political reconciliation. Redeploy some troops to Afghanistan.

"I'm proud of the fact that I put forward a plan in January that mirrors what Congress ultimately adopted, and it says, there's no military solution to this. We've got to have a political solution, begin a phased withdrawal, and make certain that we've got benchmarks in place so that the Iraqi people can make a determination about how they want to move forward."

— Democratic debate, April 26, 2007
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 7
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History
McCain And Obama Are No Different On Iraq
Posted: 5/22/2008 7:07:52 AM
I know I always rely on the John Birch Society for MY information.

The fun part is going back to the same quotes that are there, and seeing them now in their proper context - for Obama.


They must be hoping that voters do not listen to what their candidate actually says.


No, that would be the John Birch society that's doing that.



You sign the shirts with messages of hope and support for your friends in Iraq and Afghanistan. Your Brothers and Sisters from all across the country are working with police officers and you have sent more than 10,000 shirts to our soldiers. I’m not a firefighter, and I am certainly not a hero. But I have one more for you: a signed shirt from me. It reads, “Thank you. Be safe. You’re coming home soon.”

And I mean that; they will be coming home soon.

Your Brothers and Sisters and the more than 1.6 million of our best and bravest who have been deployed since September 11th. They will be part of a homecoming not seen in a generation.

It’s time to find an end to this war. That’s why I have a plan that will begin withdrawing our troops from Iraq on May 1st of this year, with the goal of removing all of our combat forces from the country by March of 2008.

I’ve also said that we have to make sure we’re not as careless getting out of this war as we were getting in, and that’s why this withdrawal would be gradual, and would keep some U.S. troops in the region to prevent a wider war and go after Al Qaeda and other terrorists.

Remarks of Senator Barack Obama
IAFF Meeting
March 14, 2007

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news
_view&newsId=20070314005859&newsLang=en



Summary: The Washington Post's Michael Shear falsely suggested that Sen. Barack Obama has changed his position on U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq since September 2007, writing that when Obama was "[a]sked to make a withdrawal timeline pledge during a debate last September," he "declined, saying that 'it's hard to project four years from now,' " but that Obama now says "he will remove all combat brigades from Iraq within 16 months of becoming president and will leave 'some troops' in Iraq to protect U.S. embassy personnel there and carry out targeted strikes on terrorists." But contrary to Shear's suggestion, Obama did not make contradictory statements.

But contrary to Shear's suggestion, Obama did not make contradictory statements. During the September 26, 2007, MSNBC debate, host Tim Russert asked Obama, "Will you pledge that by January 2013, the end of your first term more than five years from now, there will be no U.S. troops in Iraq? [emphasis added]" Shear reported Obama's answer but not the question -- which was about the withdrawal of all troops, not, as Shear suggested, the withdrawal of most troops. Obama responded, "I think it's hard to project four years from now, and I think it would be irresponsible. We don't know what contingency will be out there," as Shear reported. Obama also said: "What I can promise is that if there are still troops in Iraq when I take office ... then I will drastically reduce our presence there to the mission of protecting our embassy, protecting our civilians and making sure that we're carrying out counterterrorism activities there [emphasis added]." Thus, contrary to Shear's suggestion, Obama's statement in September 2007 about withdrawing most troops, while leaving a troop presence in Iraq, is consistent with what Shear quoted Obama as saying recently.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200805150007


So you see, it's falsehood under a mask of "truthiness" .

McCain also knows the military is under tremendous strain, but ignores the reality to suggest four more years may win this war.


Analysts say Iraq surge can't last past Aug. '08

By Bryan Bender, Globe Staff | August 30, 2007

WASHINGTON -- The Pentagon cannot sustain its current force levels in Iraq beyond next summer, effectively giving the Bush administration and the Iraqi government until the middle of 2008 to capitalize on recent security improvements before the US military must draw down its forces, according to US military officials and foreign policy analysts.

When the 15-month combat tours end for the nearly 30,000 additional US troops President Bush sent to Iraq earlier this year to secure the country, the Army will be unable to replace them without damaging morale or troop readiness, senior Army officials say. Those forces will complete their tours during the spring and summer of 2008, according to Army deployment schedules.

A report says Iraq missed all but three benchmarks.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/08/30/
analysts_say_iraq_surge_cant_last_past_aug_08/


There's a vast difference between Obama and McCain, and a vote for Obama will result in a slow backing out of Iraq, and a forcing of the Iraqis to finally stand up for their country.

McCain will ensure the troops are there for four years - and probably longer.

Those noecon roots are showing, and they will continue to fight the good fight until they win it - as long as it takes..........

Unfortunately, no one has a real idea of what "winning" actually means, how it can be achieved, and any sort of benchmark to measure it.
 flyguy51

Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 8
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History
McCain And Obama Are No Different On Iraq
Posted: 5/22/2008 8:04:34 AM
No one will be as decidedly drastic on Iraq as Paul and Kucinich would have been, but it is mistaken to think that there's no difference between the candidates on the subject.

I think that McCain will listen to he Generals on the ground as Bush has.

I hope that, if elected, McCain will listen to the generals MUCH more than Bush et al have. Heck, Petraus is still being selectively listened to!
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 9
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History
McCain And Obama Are No Different On Iraq
Posted: 5/22/2008 11:02:24 AM

I think that McCain will listen to he Generals on the ground as Bush has.


Well, accepting the delightful irony in that statement at it's full and rightful measure.....I agree.



Planning for after the war in Iraq non-existent

By WARREN P. STROBEL and JOHN WALCOTT

Knight Ridder Newspapers

WASHINGTON - In March 2003, days before the start of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, American war planners and intelligence officials met at Shaw Air Force Base in South Carolina to review the Bush administration's plans to oust Saddam Hussein and implant democracy in Iraq.

Near the end of his presentation, an Army lieutenant colonel who was giving a briefing showed a slide describing the Pentagon's plans for rebuilding Iraq after the war, known in the planners' parlance as Phase 4-C. He was uncomfortable with his material - and for good reason.

The slide said: "To Be Provided."

A Knight Ridder review of the administration's Iraq policy and decisions has found that it invaded Iraq without a comprehensive plan in place to secure and rebuild the country. The administration also failed to provide some 100,000 additional U.S. troops that American military commanders originally wanted to help restore order and reconstruct a country shattered by war, a brutal dictatorship and economic sanctions.

"We didn't go in with a plan. We went in with a theory," said a veteran State Department officer who was directly involved in Iraq policy.

http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/002990.html



n late April 1999, the United States Central Command (CENTCOM), led by Marine General Anthony Zinni (ret.), conducted a series of war games known as Desert Crossing in order to assess potential outcomes of an invasion of Iraq aimed at unseating Saddam Hussein.



It was anticipated that an invasion of Iraq would require 400,000 troops, and even then chaos might ensue. In its “Desert Crossing” games, 70 military, diplomatic and intelligence officials assumed the high troop levels would be needed to keep order, seal borders and take care of other security needs.



The results of Desert Crossing, however, drew pessimistic conclusions regarding the immediate possible outcomes of such action. Some of these conclusions are interestingly similar to the events which actually occurred after Saddam was overthrown.

The war games looked at “worst case” and “most likely” scenarios after a war that removed then-Iraqi President Saddam Hussein from power. Some are similar to what actually occurred after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.

The documents came to light Saturday November 4,2006 through a Freedom of Information Act request by the George Washington University’s National Security Archive, an independent research institute and library. Here are some of the highlights of the report:

* “A change in regimes does not guarantee stability,” the 1999 seminar briefings said. “A number of factors including aggressive neighbors, fragmentation along religious and/or ethnic lines, and chaos created by rival forces bidding for power could adversely affect regional stability.”

* “Even when civil order is restored and borders are secured, the replacement regime could be problematic — especially if perceived as weak, a puppet, or out-of-step with prevailing regional governments.”


* “Iran’s anti-Americanism could be enflamed by a U.S.-led intervention in Iraq,” the briefings read. “The influx of U.S. and other western forces into Iraq would exacerbate worries in Tehran, as would the installation of a pro-western government in Baghdad.”

* “The debate on post-Saddam Iraq also reveals the paucity of information about the potential and capabilities of the external Iraqi opposition groups. The lack of intelligence concerning their roles hampers U.S. policy development.”

* “Also, some participants believe that no Arab government will welcome the kind of lengthy U.S. presence that would be required to install and sustain a democratic government.”

* “A long-term, large-scale military intervention may be at odds with many coalition partners.”

http://www.solcomhouse.com/postiraq.htm


The Iraq study group, lead by James Baker



RECOMMENDATION 3: As a complement to the diplomatic offensive, and in addition to the Support Group discussed below, the United States and the Iraqi government should support the holding of a conference or meeting in Baghdad of the Organization of the Islamic Conference or the Arab League both to assist the Iraqi government in promoting national reconciliation in Iraq and to reestablish their diplomatic presence in Iraq.

RECOMMENDATION 9: Under the aegis of the New Diplomatic Offensive and the Support Group, the United States should engage directly with Iran and Syria in order to try to obtain their commitment to constructive policies toward Iraq and other regional issues. In engaging Syria and Iran, the United States should consider incentives, as well as disincentives, in seeking constructive results.

RECOMMENDATION 10: The issue of Iran’s nuclear programs should continue to be dealt with by the United Nations Security Council and its five permanent members (i.e., the United States, United Kingdom, France, Russia, and China) plus Germany.

RECOMMENDATION 19: The President and the leadership of his national security team
should remain in close and frequent contact with the Iraqi leadership. These contacts must convey a clear message: there must be action by the Iraqi government to make substantial progress toward the achievement of milestones. In public diplomacy, the President should convey as much detail as possible about the substance of these exchanges in order to keep the American people, the Iraqi people, and the countries in the region well informed.

RECOMMENDATION 20: If the Iraqi government demonstrates political will and makes
substantial progress toward the achievement of milestones on national reconciliation, security, and governance, the United States should make clear its willingness to continue training, assistance, and support for Iraq’s security forces, and to continue political, military, and economic support for the Iraqi government. As Iraq becomes more capable of governing, defending, and sustaining itself, the U.S. military and civilian presence in Iraq can be reduced.

RECOMMENDATION 21: If the Iraqi government does not make substantial progress toward the achievement of milestones on national reconciliation, security, and governance, the United States should reduce its political, military, or economic support for the Iraqi government.

RECOMMENDATION 22: The President should state that the United States does not seek permanent military bases in Iraq. If the Iraqi government were to request a temporary base or bases, then the U.S. government could consider that request as it would in the case of any other government.

RECOMMENDATION 23: The President should restate that the United States does not seek to control Iraq’s oil.

- The Iraq Study Group Report
December 6, 2006.


A year and a half later ? Mission NOT accomplished.


Retired Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, who commanded coalition troops for a year beginning June 2003, cast a wide net of blame for both political and military shortcomings in Iraq that helped open the way for the insurgency -- such as disbanding the Saddam-era military and failing to cement ties with tribal leaders and quickly establish civilian government after Saddam was toppled.

He called current strategies -- including the deployment of 30,000 additional forces earlier this year -- a "desperate attempt" to make up for years of misguided policies in Iraq.

"There is no question that America is living a nightmare with no end in sight," Sanchez told a group of journalists covering military affairs.

When asked when he saw that the mission was going awry, he responded: "About the 15th of June 2003" -- the day he took command.

"There is nothing going on today in Washington that would give us hope" that things are going to change, he said.




Why Iraq Was a Mistake

- WASHINGTON -- The invasion of Iraq was the “greatest strategic disaster in United States history,” a retired Army general said yesterday, strengthening an effort in Congress to force an American withdrawal beginning next year., Retired Army Lt. Gen. William Odom, a Vietnam veteran, said the invasion of Iraq alienated America's Middle East allies, making it harder to prosecute a war against terrorists.

The U.S. should withdraw from Iraq, he said, and reposition its military forces along the Afghan-Pakistani border to capture Osama bin Laden and crush al Qaeda cells.

“The invasion of Iraq I believe will turn out to be the greatest strategic disaster in U.S. history,” said Odom, now a scholar with the Hudson Institute.



From 2000 until October 2002, I was a Marine Corps lieutenant general and director of operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff. After 9/11, I was a witness and therefore a party to the actions that led us to the invasion of Iraq--an unnecessary war. Inside the military family, I made no secret of my view that the zealots' rationale for war made no sense. And I think I was outspoken enough to make those senior to me uncomfortable. But I now regret that I did not more openly challenge those who were determined to invade a country whose actions were peripheral to the real threat--al-Qaeda. I retired from the military four months before the invasion, in part because of my opposition to those who had used 9/11's tragedy to hijack our security policy. Until now, I have resisted speaking out in public. I've been silent long enough.

What we are living with now is the consequences of successive policy failures. Some of the missteps include: the distortion of intelligence in the buildup to the war, McNamara-like micromanagement that kept our forces from having enough resources to do the job, the failure to retain and reconstitute the Iraqi military in time to help quell civil disorder, the initial denial that an insurgency was the heart of the opposition to occupation, alienation of allies who could have helped in a more robust way to rebuild Iraq, and the continuing failure of the other agencies of our government to commit assets to the same degree as the Defense Department. My sincere view is that the commitment of our forces to this fight was done with a casualness and swagger that are the special province of those who have never had to execute these missions--or bury the results.

There have been exceptions, albeit uncommon, to the rule of silence among military leaders. Former Army Chief of Staff General Shinseki, when challenged to offer his professional opinion during prewar congressional testimony, suggested that more troops might be needed for the invasion's aftermath. The Secretary and Deputy Secretary of Defense castigated him in public and marginalized him in his remaining months in his post. Army General John Abizaid, head of Central Command, has been forceful in his views with appointed officials on strategy and micromanagement of the fight in Iraq--often with success. Marine Commandant General Mike Hagee steadfastly challenged plans to underfund, understaff and underequip his service as the Corps has struggled to sustain its fighting capability.

Marine Lieut. General Greg Newbold
Pentagon top operations officer

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1181629,00.html



The initial euphoria can wear off. People have the idea that Jeffersonian democracy, entrepreneurial economics and all these great things are going to come. If they are not delivered immediately, do not seem to be on the rise, and worse yet, if the situation begins to deteriorate if there is tribal revenge, factional splitting, still violent elements in the country making statements that make it more difficult, institutions that are difficult to re establish, infrastructure damage, I think that initial euphoria could wane away. It's not whether you're greeted in the streets as a hero; it's whether you're still greeted as a hero when you come back a year from now.

I think success will not be measured by what happens in the fight. I would hope in a military context that casualties are minimal all the way around; that destruction is minimized; and that the rapid conclusion of the fighting occurs in a way that we don't create long standing hatreds, frictions, or security problems in the region. But the military success of this is just the beginning of the beginning. What is going to end up being a deciding factor as to whether this is a success will be what happens to Iraq in the aftermath, whether it stands up as a viable democratic multi representational nation with its territory intact, not threatening its neighbors, and disavowing weapons of mass destruction. All of those component parts are going to be difficult to pull together. That will be the measure of success.

I don't believe that we ever lost a battle in Vietnam. I don't believe we ever lost a battle in Somalia. I don't believe we ever really lost a battle once we committed ourselves to Korea, but we didn't resolve the situations politically the way we wanted to in any of those instances. So military success, in and of itself, is never the complete answer. Success will have to be measured, not in military terms but in political terms in what is left behind. That will be the mark of what we are what we leave behind in this.

Retired Marine Gen. Anthony Zinni
October 31, 2002

http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/zinni-iraq-conditions-pr.cfm



ARLINGTON, Va. - The U.S. mission in Iraq is a "nightmare with no end in sight" because of political misjudgments after the fall of Saddam Hussein that continue today, a former chief of U.S.-led forces said Friday.

Retired Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, who commanded coalition troops for a year beginning June 2003, cast a wide net of blame for both political and military shortcomings in Iraq that helped open the way for the insurgency — such as disbanding the Saddam-era military and failing to cement ties with tribal leaders and quickly establish civilian government after Saddam was toppled.

He called current strategies — including the deployment of 30,000 additional forces earlier this year — a "desperate attempt" to make up for years of misguided policies in Iraq.

"There is no question that America is living a nightmare with no end in sight," Sanchez told a group of journalists covering military affairs.

http://www.nowpublic.com/politics/ex-general-iraq-nightmare-us



To say I was shocked would be an understatement. I had never seen any approved CENTCOM campaign plan, either conceptual or detailed, for the post�major combat operations phase. When I was on the ground in Iraq and saw what was going on, I assumed they had done zero Phase IV planning. Now, three years later, I was learning for the first time that my assumption was not completely accurate. In fact, CENTCOM had originally called for twelve to eighteen months of Phase IV activity with active troop deployments. But then CENTCOM had completely walked away by simply stating that the war was over and Phase IV was not their job.

That decision set up the United States for a failed first year in Iraq. There is no question about it. And I was supposed to believe that neither the Secretary of Defense nor anybody above him knew anything about it? Impossible! Rumsfeld knew about it. Everybody on the NSC knew about it, including Condoleezza Rice, George Tenet, and Colin Powell. Vice President Cheney knew about it. And President Bush knew about it.

There's not a doubt in my mind that they all embraced this decision to some degree. And if it had not been for the moral courage of Gen. John Abizaid to stand up to them all and reverse Franks's troop drawdown order, there's no telling how much more damage would have been done.

In the meantime, hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars were unnecessarily spent, and worse yet, too many of our most precious military resource, our American soldiers, were unnecessarily wounded, maimed, and killed as a result. In my mind, this action by the Bush administration amounts to gross incompetence and dereliction of duty.

- Ricardo Sanchez, the commander of U.S. Forces in Iraq in 2003-2004

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1736831,00.html
?xid=feed-cnn-topics


And McCain wants to continue this for as long as it takes - lead by the neocons.
 Pyro74

Joined: 4/23/2006
Msg: 10
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History
McCain And Obama Are No Different On Iraq
Posted: 5/23/2008 2:54:51 AM

In Afghanistan, he said, an increase in actionable intelligence will have led to the capture or death of Osama bin Laden, and “there is no longer any place in the world al Qaeda can consider a safe haven.

I guess he forgot about Pakistan. But, when your as old as he is, you tend to forget things.
 The Eloi

Joined: 4/14/2008
Msg: 11
McCain And Obama Are No Different On Iraq
Posted: 5/23/2008 1:08:24 PM
You mean banking/military industrial complex puppet "A" is no different than banking/military industrial complex puppet "B" ?
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