| Regarding modern day communications with "god"
Posted: 5/24/2008 3:50:43 PM | My question to you all is the following:
Why is it that now a days, if someone says that they have spoken to god and were told to do something, lets take into example the test of faith of Abraham by God.. Why is it that today the person would be deemed insane and in those days it was no so? | |
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| Regarding modern day communications with god
Posted: 5/24/2008 4:13:16 PM | | Because the the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders was not in existence in biblical times. Extraordinary events were more likely to have been given a supernatural explanation in those times, whereas today, most extraordinary events would most likely have a rational explanation, explicable by a scientific understanding of how the world works. | |
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| Regarding modern day communications with god
Posted: 5/24/2008 5:06:53 PM | | That Joseph Smith guy claimed to have interacted with angels almost a couple of millennia after the Bible and people listened to him. L Ron Hubbard devised a modern belief system based on brainwashing techniques and bad sci fi stories and his belief system is the movie stars' choice. All it takes really is for someone to believe you and give your faith a kickstart and anyone can start a religion. I'm sure it can and will happen in future. Not everyone will respect you at first if you claim to have received orders from above, but given time.. | |
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| Regarding modern day communications with god
Posted: 5/24/2008 6:18:00 PM | I watched a programme on BBC TV with Dr Tanya Byron. She said that psychologists and psychiatrists are taught that anyone who even believes in G-d is mentally ill. So psychologists and psychiatrists also believed that anyone who claims to have communicated with G-d is suffering from schizophrenic hallucinations, and needs to be locked up immediately.
It's simply due to the traditional teaching of psychologists and psychiatrists that atheism is the only true spiritual belief. They aren't shown any proof of this, either empirically, or logically, they are simply ordered to believe it, as they would be immediately be declared mentally ill if they questioned it, so they would be out of a job if they did question it.
However, some psychologists are beginning to question if Science has all the answers. | |
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| Regarding modern day communications with god
Posted: 5/24/2008 6:20:35 PM | | They were deemed just as crazy back throughout history too. You just can't talk to the people who call them crazy anymore... because they are long gone. | |
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| Regarding modern day communications with god
Posted: 5/24/2008 6:49:32 PM | Why is it that today the person would be deemed insane and in those days it was no so? I can't tell you how many times I have asked that same question...
Burning bushes.. without it being consumed... hello!
The bible is a channeled work considered sacrosanct by christians, but any other channeled piece is the devil's handiwork... completely invalid at best.. ridiculous.
There is a fine line between insanity and genius... it fascinates me... cool thread :)
psychologists and psychiatrists are taught that anyone who even believes in G-d is mentally ill. So psychologists and psychiatrists also believed that anyone who claims to have communicated with G-d is suffering from schizophrenic hallucinations, and needs to be locked up immediately.
It's simply due to the traditional teaching of psychologists and psychiatrists that atheism is the only true spiritual belief. They aren't shown any proof of this, either empirically, or logically, they are simply ordered to believe it, as they would be immediately be declared mentally ill if they questioned it, so they would be out of a job if they did question it. One BBC special does not the education of ALL psycholgists and psychiatrists make...
I think your generalizations on this topic are ridiculous. There are many, many spiritual psychiatrists and psychologists who definately do NOT consider everyone who believes in God delusional. Sheesh...
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| Regarding modern day communications with god
Posted: 5/24/2008 6:50:11 PM |
I watched a programme on BBC TV with Dr Tanya Byron. She said that psychologists and psychiatrists are taught that anyone who even believes in G-d is mentally ill. So psychologists and psychiatrists also believed that anyone who claims to have communicated with G-d is suffering from schizophrenic hallucinations, and needs to be locked up immediately.
This sounds a bit far fetched Scorpio. The only circumstance I can imagine that might cause psychiatric concern is one where the subjects' conversations with God were leading to antisocial behaviour, such as sharpening a long screwdriver and setting out for the red light district to clean the streets.. | |
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| Regarding modern day communications with god
Posted: 5/24/2008 7:10:49 PM |
Why is it that today the person would be deemed insane and in those days it was no so?
I've been called a little weird, but deemed insane? Well, maybe by a couple of people, lol... Not that I claim to have spoken to a "true" God who is above all gods, just how I would percieve the Tao if It had a personality.
The only circumstance I can imagine that might cause psychiatric concern is one where the subjects' conversations with God were leading to antisocial behaviour, such as sharpening a long screwdriver and setting out for the red light district to clean the streets..
I guess so... And even if a creator God did in fact tell them to do harm to people, it wouldn't make it right... If the person isn't suffering delusions, it would make the creator God an enemy of the people. | |
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| Regarding modern day communications with god
Posted: 5/24/2008 9:05:14 PM |
Why is it that now a days, if someone says that they have spoken to god and were told to do something, lets take into example the test of faith of Abraham by God.. Why is it that today the person would be deemed insane and in those days it was no so?
Perhaps this is why when people say that they've "talked to god" that others will quickly run for cover:
A college student who confessed to shooting his parents and then breaking a chain saw trying to cut up their bodies said, "God told me to" in a interview with police. Philip Badowski has been charged with the deaths of Chester "Chet" Badowski Jr., 47, and Christine Badowski, 46, who were killed after returning from a mission trip to Haiti. Investigators found their dismembered bodies in a locked bedroom when they went to their home to check on them after they failed to show up for work. | |
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| Regarding modern day communications with god
Posted: 5/26/2008 12:34:56 PM |
They aren't shown any proof of this, either empirically, or logically, they are simply ordered to believe it, as they would be immediately be declared mentally ill if they questioned it, so they would be out of a job if they did question it. The same could be said of Christians. They aren't show any proof of their believe, either empirically or logically, they are simple told to believe it, so they would be immediately declared a heretic if they questioned it, and so they are sent to h3ll if they did question it. | |
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| Regarding modern day communications with god
Posted: 5/26/2008 1:45:54 PM |
There is a fine line between insanity and genius.
There is so much truth in that statement.
When you look at most things in life you see this same thing though.
Like Car racing for example. You do not get to the front of the field without hanging it out on the edge. Going through a corner with the tires on the very edge of what they are capable of doing to keep the car moving forward is what makes the difference between first and last place.
Same thing goes for many other things in life. That was one of the things I noticed a long time ago. That living life on the edge is what sets someone apart from the rest of the pack.
Even when things are out of control you can still have a level of control that keeps you tangled on the edge of something.
Like Dale E in nascar. It was always said he could see the wind when driving. Some think that would mean he could actully see the air flowing over everyones cars so that he could use that air flow to his advantage.
But IMO it was not the wind he was seeing. It was his ability to KNOW what the wind would do when confronted with a car shaped a specific way. Like he could look at someones car and know how it would interact with the wind and picture what the draft would do.
That IMO was like what some consider as communication with God.
If you also look through history you can see the same things. Not so much the wind examples but you can see that when certain things happen then similar results happen. Most things in life are very predictable. That only changes when someone can understand that and slide on that edge a little more to avoid the standard outcomes.
Some of the best drivers in life are so in tune with their car and have it hanging out so far on the edge that if someone was to give a slight nudge it could cause a tail spin. Yet even then their is a level of control they have. They can panic and lift off the gas which takes away forward bite causing a spin, or they can keep their foot on the gas and drive right through.
Someone could be completely sideways in a corner but still going forward when done that way. Lifting off the gas when on the edge will more than likely cause a crash.
Life tends to work the same way IMO. Even when someone nudges your life you just keep on the gas and drive right through it and on the other side of the corner you can gather it up and straiten it out.
psychologists and psychiatrists are taught that anyone who even believes in G-d is mentally ill. So psychologists and psychiatrists also believed that anyone who claims to have communicated with G-d is suffering from schizophrenic hallucinations, and needs to be locked up immediately.
Some of the things I have seen or heard tells me some of those types of psychologists and psychiatrists should be the ones locked up.
IMO they stay safe and sound in their little offices surrounded by their books. IMO if they are one of the ones saying this I feel they should be made to have to give up their comforts and sent out into the REAL world for awhile. I mean shoot they have allowed someone else to frame their own thinking and to me that itself seems more insane than someone that says they can talk to God.
Toss them out into the lions den and see how they can handle themselves...lol..... IMO it wouldn't take too long before they would be crying home for their mommy or wanting to hear a word from any God to save them. No piece of paper hanging on a wall given to them from someone that manipulated their minds into thinking a specific way would save them. After all it is just a $100,000 piece of paper.
For myself choosing between a thin piece of paper or a thick book... I chose the book it has offered me far more than that paper ever could have.
Of course these are just MY opinions. | |
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| Regarding modern day communications with god
Posted: 5/27/2008 9:33:11 AM | RE msg 6 by sassyaquarius:
One BBC special does not the education of ALL psycholgists and psychiatrists make... She just presented the programme. She interviewed a few, and she made it very clear that this was practically a given in psychology and psychiatry.
I think your generalizations on this topic are ridiculous. There are many, many spiritual psychiatrists and psychologists who definately do NOT consider everyone who believes in God delusional. Sheesh... There might be. But how many of those are private, and how many are public health officials, who are entitled to "Section" you without warning, that is, to lock you up against your will, just on their say-so?
I've met quite a few over the years. The ones who are quite authoritative in the UK public healthcare system, the NHS, clearly share this belief.
I suggest that you read chelloveck's comment regarding the DSM, because the latest copy of the DSM is considered the Bible for mental health issues in the UK.
RE msg 7 by clarence clutterbuck:
This sounds a bit far fetched Scorpio. The only circumstance I can imagine that might cause psychiatric concern is one where the subjects' conversations with God were leading to antisocial behaviour, such as sharpening a long screwdriver and setting out for the red light district to clean the streets.. I know people who've done crazy things, and mentally ill people who got sectioned. They got sectioned for getting in a fight, and for getting upset and chucking a chair around the room. Yet we get a lot of reports of how schizophrenics went killing people and nothing got done till afterwards, so it's very worrying.
The actual situation is that they ask you if you believe that you might come to harm yourself or others. If you answer YES, you're sectioned. If you answer NO, you're not sectioned. What you actually might do, has little to do with it.
It's all very worrying for me, sassyaquarius and clarence clutterbuck, because I WANT therapy, and I believe in G-d. But when I've mentioned G-d, I've found that my psychiatrists' and psychologists' responses were less than receptive. So I am uncomfortable to discuss these concepts in case they consider me delusional and disregard everything I say, as that will just make me feel like my judgement is less than worthless, and my issue is with a lack of self-esteem that I am doing the right thing.
In addition, I really don't want to be sectioned. Everyone I've met who has been, told me that the public mental heath wards in the UK are horrible places, that you would do anything to avoid, and that once you're in, they won't let you out for a long time, and that once you've been sectioned, you can be sectioned at any point in the future, for almost any reason at all. Being sectioned is worse than a criminal record, because even an ex-con won't be put back into prison just for getting in a bar fight. It's like being permanently on parole.
I used to visit one, as an outpatient, because that was where my psychiatrist was based. I've passed prisons. The security is far, far higher than a prison. The place was surrounded by a 14-foot fence, and everything around that fence was forest on an extremely sharp incline. So even if you made it out, you couldn't get anywhere. The building itself was made of solid brick, the sort of thing that is used for bunkers to hold explosive chemicals. To get in, you had to stand outside the door, and be viewed by a camera. Then you'd pass through a Rav-Briach-type door. It's a door that people have in Israel. It's made of 2 thick sheets of metal. The lock is a combination sliding piece and 4 extra deadbolts, so you'd never slip a credit card through. The key is a solid piece of metal, with unique carved shapes into it, so you couldn't pick it, like a normal lock. The deadbolts ensure you cannot just cut through the lock, anyway. The lock is geared to four solid metal pins, which pass through the all 4 sides of the door, so you cannot take it off its hinges. It's by far the most impregnable door I've ever seen. Then you go into a tiny antechamber, where you are again viewed through a camera, and you are facing another such door, and the second door won't open until the first is closed. So even if you were let through the first door by accident, you'd never make it through the second. So there is no way in or out. There is a garden, but INSIDE the building. So unless you're Spider-man, you're not getting out that way, either.
I seriously think prisons could learn a lot from these places.
RE msg 11 by ~DREAMS~:
Some of the things I have seen or heard tells me some of those types of psychologists and psychiatrists should be the ones locked up. Sssh! You can get sectioned for saying things like that! 
Toss them out into the lions den and see how they can handle themselves...lol..... IMO it wouldn't take too long before they would be crying home for their mommy or wanting to hear a word from any God to save them. No piece of paper hanging on a wall given to them from someone that manipulated their minds into thinking a specific way would save them. After all it is just a $100,000 piece of paper. You mean like the Schizophrenic who was put out from the mental wards into the general population about 15 years ago, in order to save on hospital beds, and who then jumped into a lion/tiger's enclosure in a zoo and got eaten? Now, they are attempting to close far more wards than ever before, and put even more into the general population. | |
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| Regarding modern day communications with god
Posted: 5/27/2008 11:39:58 AM |
Sssh! You can get sectioned for saying things like that!
We have the second amendment here in the US to prevent situations like that.
You mean like the Schizophrenic who was put out from the mental wards into the general population about 15 years ago, in order to save on hospital beds, and who then jumped into a lion/tiger's enclosure in a zoo and got eaten? Now, they are attempting to close far more wards than ever before, and put even more into the general population.
I was not talking about the patients. I was talking about the people stating that anything having to do with God equals a mental illness of some kind.
Not a literal lion den. I was more meaning for them to get out of the offices and head out into a area that has a high crime rate for them to HELP those people get through their difficulties.
I mean dang so many people that have faith do exactly that every day to help those less fortunate. They meet the hurting people right on the streets. They go to the ones in need. They do not sit in a office surrounded by books with a fancy leather chair talking softly to someone that is hurting. (And that is provided there is someone they can send the bill to of course or they don't want to help anyone. NO MONEY NO MENTAL HELP! That is their model.) That is why they have people commited the most. Not because they want to help people... It is so then they can bill the tax payers for their services and claim it as something needed by the community.
I don't see the churches and preachers sending a bill for $180. HR for their services to help the people. I guess that is why they would say they are crazy if they talk to God. | |
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| Regarding modern day communications with god
Posted: 5/27/2008 11:56:42 AM | Actually having perused the DSM in its latest incarnation myself and having discussed this very issue with members of the profession the line falls around the area of self harm. In fact, the writers had to redraw the line regarding "Magical Beliefs and Ideation" because the definitions would be inclusive of almost all modern practioners of conventional religion and that would not serve the purpose of the manual which is to find people who are essentially dysfunctional.
It also has to work broadly over cultures, so magical thinking can apply to cultures who have a belief in magic as a part of their religious schema, such as more animist or tribal groups...therefore the definitions have to be stretched again.
The terms have to be applied in such a fashion that they reflect what is outside the norm for one's cultural and religious persuasion.
The DSM is not used as a modern day Malleus Maleficarum. That suggestion is patently absurd. It is a diagnostic tool only and is highly adaptable and subject to constant re-evaluation and change...it has to be as we learn more about brain function and mental illness. It is not meant to put people's spiritual beliefs on trial. By the same token, if a person hears voices that tell them to harm themself or others or take actions that might lead to this, or act in a fashion that is inconsistent with safe behaviour, or act in a fashion that IS consistent with a biological source of behaviour modification, it behooves us to be aware of it. Thus we have the DSM. | |
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| Regarding modern day communications with god
Posted: 5/27/2008 8:52:27 PM |
I watched a programme on BBC TV with Dr Tanya Byron. She said that psychologists and psychiatrists are taught that anyone who even believes in G-d is mentally ill. So psychologists and psychiatrists also believed that anyone who claims to have communicated with G-d is suffering from schizophrenic hallucinations, and needs to be locked up immediately.
Dr. Byron, recently presented a 4-part series produced for the BBC, called "Am I Normal?"... exploring ideas about the boundaries of acceptable social behaviour through themes of addiction, body image, faith and sex.
Byron explores the behaviours and treatments of these subjects objectively ... peppered with common sense, offering for our consideration such questions as:
- Is having sex with thousands of men within the range of normal behaviour? (best debated in another thread)
- Is having an attraction to young girls acceptable if one doesn't act on that attaction in a way that harms or coerces them? (best debated in another thread)
- Are sexual addictions or addictions to computer games real physiological addictions? (best debated in another thread)
- Is hearing God different than hearing voices? (BINGO!)
Contrary to claims to the otherwise, she explores these ideas without yielding to the temptation to give pat answers... or jumping to self-serving conclusions that suit her own personal agenda. *ahem*
Folks who are interested in what Dr. Byron actually has to say about spirituality may want to check the program (available online in 6 parts) out for themselves:
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qidh2aC2yIo
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQIRZte5AQk
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OFVGHms9dE
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVUFfEu2YHg
Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbvJxZfoE_Y
Part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxT3V7VdNXE
Regarding MY personal modern-day communication with God? Well, let's just say I've discovered that he's actually quite a big fan of the Post-It note. | |
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