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| Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 5/30/2008 10:51:20 PM | when all of his other options have run out, and he knows the end is near, will instinctively pray to God for help and/or comfort.
The believer, however, at his time of defeat, does not to feel the need employ logic which debunks the existence of an afterlife in order to comfort himself.
I practice no religion nor do I associate with one by name.
Discuss. | |
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| Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 5/31/2008 3:08:02 AM | gregorywb.......
I may be wrong, but although you may profess to practice no religion, nor associate with one by name, the phrasing of your question suggests a belief in a god, and seems to favour a theistic bias.
Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
when all of his other options have run out, and he knows the end is near, will instinctively pray to God for help and/or comfort.
This seems to be a variation on the "There are no atheists in foxholes" aphorism.
It is a nonsense to suggest that Every man....will instinctively pray to god for help and/or comfort. That assertion is disproved by documented evidence to the contrary.
Undoubtedly, some people do pray to their god, or any god for help / and or comfort. But also many die without seeking solace from god...some even cursing god with their dying breath. Some, in their final moments are so preoccupied with the efforts of surviving, that they have no time to afford the luxury of thinking about god even, let alone praying for help and comfort.
From my own experience I have faced the prospect of imminent death on three occasions.
My first experience was as the driver of a vehicle in a high speed (at an estimated combined velocity of 150-170kph) head on collision with another motor vehicle. I literally had only a second or two from the moment that I perceived the certain probability that I would die and the moment of impact....apart from a number of automatic unconscious responses in trying to avoid and mitigate the effects of the impact...i had time for two thoughts only. 1. I was sad at not having the chance to say goodbye to my wife and children before I died. 2. "What a sh!tty way to die". No time for prayers or god...just my wife and children...and a brief philosphical thought. That I survived, is attributable to luck, reflexive evasive action, and wearing a seatbelt.
My second experience of imminent death was a near drowning in a very big surf. I got dumped in a big breaker in the surf off the Australian coast. The wave separated me from my body board, so I had no means of flotation, and the zip at the back of my wetsuit separated, and instead of providing me with some bouyancy, it filled with water like a ballon, and weighed me down. Each and every time I would get to the surface, I would have only enough time to quickly exhale, and take a huge gulp of air before the next wave hit and knocked me down deep below the surface. I would swim closer to the shore after coming out of the washing machine kind of cauldron created by each dumper as it hit my body. I would periodically come to the surface to get more air. The kinetic force of the dumping waves was quite phenomenal and I was aware that I was fighting for my life and that if i did not succeed, that I would most likely die. My effort and awareness was totally focussed on surviving, without any absolute certainty that my efforts would be successful. What seemed, subjectively to me like hours probably was only a matter of 10 or maybe 15 minutes...possibly less, to get from the point of being placed in a very life threartening situation, to safety. If I had allowed my concentration on co-ordinating my breathing...surfacing, and moving closer to shore, to be distracted by prayer...or seeking help or solace from god....I may have given up my effort to survive, or I may have miss-timed my surfacing / breathing / swimming cycle and have taken water in my lungs and drowned. As it happened , I eventually got to shore, utterly exhausted, physically and mentally.
My third, and recent experience (only about 6 weeks ago) involved being a pedestrian hit by a large SUV at an approximate speed of between 50-60 kilometers per hour. The bull bars on the front of the vehicle threw me some 5 metres or so through the air, before i landed onto the bitumen. In this situation I was conscious throughout, though much of my body was numb, I was experiencing traumatic shock, and there was concern that I may have had serious internal injuries. My effort was concentrated again...on my own survival....actively maintaining my consciousness, keeping my own morale up, interacting with those rendering first aid, and those EMT's, doctors, nurses and other medical professionals who were involved with my initial treatment, triage, and subsequent treatment. Up until the time the time that the triage diagnoses were forthcoming, there was the distinct possibility that I might not survive. I did not feel any instinctive desire to seek assistance or solace from God. The compassionate touch of one of the doctors treating me was all the comfort I required to sustain me.
I am not the only one to not require the need to pray to god for deliverance or comfort...history is replete with witnessed dying moments where individuals have expired, not giving a care for prayer or god.
The dying words of many famous and infamous people are to be found at the following web sites
http://listverse.com/history/20-famous-last-words/
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/6537/realidx.htm
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Famous_last_words
http://planecrashinfo.com/lastwords.htm
Here are some famous last words said in the last hours of desperation.....
I am curious to see what happens in the next world to one who dies unshriven.
Giving his reasons for refusing to see a priest as he lay dying.
~~ Pietro Perugino, Italian painter, d. 1523
Go on, get out - last words are for fools who haven't said enough.
To his housekeeper, who urged him to tell her his last words so she could write them down for posterity.
~~ Karl Marx, revolutionary, d. 1883
I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark.
~~ Thomas Hobbes, writer, d. 1679
Damn it . . . Don't you dare ask God to help me.
To her housekeeper, who had begun to pray aloud.
~~ Joan Crawford, actress, d. May 10, 1977
Waiting are they? Waiting are they? Well--let 'em wait.
In response to an attending doctor who attempted to comfort him by saying, "General, I fear the angels are waiting for you."
~~ Ethan Allen, American Revolutionary general, d. 1789
Let me have none of your popish stuff. Get away with you. Good morning.
Who: Thomas Paine, pamphleteer, revolutionary, radical and intellectual. Author of Common Sense, The Rights of Man and The American Crisis.
Note: Spoken to two clergymen who were trying to lead the famous Freethinker in a deathbed conversion.
My favourites are:
"Now, now, my good man, this is no time for making enemies."
when asked by a priest to renounce Satan"
attributed to Voltaire
and
This isn't Hamlet, you know. It's not meant to go into the bloody ear.
Who: Actor Laurence Olivier supposedly said this when a nurse, attempting to moisten his lips, mis-aimed.
Note: In Shakespeare's play Hamlet, the title character's father is killed when poison is dripped into his ear while asleep.
gregorywb said
The believer, however, at his time of defeat, does not to feel the need employ logic which debunks the existence of an afterlife in order to comfort himself.
Why would a believer feel the need to debunk something that would offer the prospect of providing comfort?...though undoubtedly some believers may lose their faith or confidence in their god and come to a realisation that promises of an afterlife are perhaps a self delusion, and my become distressed by the reality of that thought.
I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make in your heading post, and I am not sure whether the text in your heading post is in your own words (other than your reference to your own POV and an invitation to discuss) or a quotation from some other source. If the latter....UBB quotation marks would be helpful.
I doubt that many non believers would be wasting breath in their dying moments debunking a belief that they don't hold to anyway.
I am not sure how I will be with my last moments....if I have the luxury of having time to reflect...I think I'd like to review the good things in my life. I have no conviction of anything beyond my physical death....and I don't think I'll be wasting my last moments on idle speculation. | |
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| Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 5/31/2008 1:30:27 PM | I would contend that prayer is a learned behaviour and not an instinctual one....each must negotiate the path from life to death in their own way.....some find comfort in emracing mythology in making that transition more bearable....others seem to have no need of mythology to cling to when the time has come to go. It matters not which choice one makes.
You seem to express some disdain for those who don't chose the way of your own beliefs....but perhaps that was the point to the post.... | |
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| Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 5/31/2008 1:34:19 PM |
Perhaps I should say that his instinct is to pray, but many may override instinct with pride. So YOU feel an instinct to pray... fair enough... perhaps others you have known do as well... which isn't really a stretch since we tend to surround ourselves with those who have similar values...
But how can you take your instincts and project them outward as though all of humanity must feel the same.. ?? Calling them "prideful" for not feeling as you do... ?
See... many others feel that praying is NOT instinctual, they feel that the urge is an attempt to assuage a fear of the unknown by indulging in an elaborate delusion...
Which is correct? | |
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| Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 6/1/2008 2:13:40 AM |
Perhaps I should say that his instinct is to pray, but many may override instinct with pride.
I would suggest our first instinct is to crap our pants.
I have faced death [had a loaded shotgun pointed at me at close range by a drunken burgler] and I can assure you, the first instinct [after shitting oneself] is survival.
Also had conversations with WW2 veterans, some religious, some not, and from what I've learned, a staunch atheist does notchange their beliefs when they are about to "meet their maker". | |
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| Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 6/1/2008 6:42:27 AM |
"Now, now, my good man, this is no time for making enemies."
when asked by a priest to renounce Satan"
attributed to Voltaire
ahhh, killer quote, it cracked me up.
See... many others feel that praying is NOT instinctual, they feel that the urge is an attempt to assuage a fear of the unknown by indulging in an elaborate delusion...
^^what she said. Hey Sassy girl.
I have faced death [had a loaded shotgun pointed at me at close range by a drunken burgler] and I can assure you, the first instinct [after shitting oneself] is survival.
Similiar circumstances happened to me too (lol, well, I was actually too scared to even crap myself lol lol) But you're right. Survival it was, and thinking I'm in the wrong line of work.. followed by a drunken fall out..oh those were the days, what was I thinking...
I wasn't thinkin' 'bout God.
I do not believe that every man prays at the last hour. some folks instinctively just feel they're just movin' on....
Cheers, Raven | |
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| Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 6/1/2008 8:23:48 AM |
Discuss.
I was faced with death a couple of times, and I have always had a very calm attitude, a little too calm, that was beyond the norm, when I should probably have experienced fear.
I would say that people react more out of fear itself in the moment, be it death or whatever circumstances they face, and fear will cause a person to do things they wouldn't normally do.
Turning to God out of fear, is not truly turning to God imo, it is more a last ditch attempt to preserve the self interests, which I consider contrary to everything God represents.. | |
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| Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 6/1/2008 8:26:34 AM |
when all of his other options have run out, and he knows the end is near, will instinctively pray to God for help and/or comfort.
Incorrect. And biased. I've known a few people, both believers and atheists, who would rightfully take umbrage at that statement.
The believer, however, at his time of defeat, does not to feel the need employ logic which debunks the existence of an afterlife in order to comfort himself.
Also biased and incendiary. The implication that all logic must contradict all afterlife theologies cannot be proven.
I practice no religion nor do I associate with one by name.
I smell an angry ex-theist: or the closely related theist-pretending-not-to-be.
Discuss.
There isn't anything worth discussing. Claiming that everyone, regardless of their own convictions or attitudes, becomes a crying infant in the face of their own mortality is absurd and insulting, as is the claim that anyone with a theological bent is naive or purposely ignorant in the same scenario. | |
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| Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 6/1/2008 8:57:01 AM |
There isn't anything worth discussing. Claiming that everyone, regardless of their own convictions or attitudes, becomes a crying infant in the face of their own mortality is absurd and insulting, as is the claim that anyone with a theological bent is naive or purposely ignorant in the same scenario.
You obviously felt it was worth discussing  | |
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| Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 6/1/2008 10:46:35 AM | when all of his other options have run out, and he knows the end is near, will instinctively pray to God for help and/or comfort.
IMO anyone turning to God at anytime is attempting to preserve their life out of fear of the unknown, or to hoping to ensure an existence in an after life in order to find comfort in the unknown.
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| Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 6/1/2008 11:04:25 AM | I'm with you there. I've been run down by a truck, broke a leg, cracked my pelvis, ripped my spleen, all that good stuff. Hadn't checked into religion too much at the time, though my folks had just started going to church (mom had lung cancer that'd spread). I laid in the street after bouncing down it for and felt like I might be dying. The only thing I felt was a need to do what I could to keep going.
I always find it weird that deeply religious people are just as adamant about trying to hold onto life when there's a possibility of doing so when they believe that once they die they'll be beamed into heaven or reincarnated or what have you. If you know you're going somewhere so fantastic then why would you fight to get away from it? | |
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| Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 6/1/2008 11:39:41 AM | In no way would I say it's everyones instinct to pray... I guess in a way it is mine... Not to any one god but to all possible gods and or forces that may be able to help... In desperation, any possible option is worth trying.
Of course (and not to sound all weird or anything) I wouldn't pray in the face of my own demise as I thought I'd faced it a few times already... I have no fear of death... I'm in no hurry as there are things still to see and do here, but my instinct is and has always been to explore that which is unknown to me.
That's why I try to learn about different stuff... You can't do that if you're afraid of change.
I pray for others to be happy, but I know I am solely responsible for my own.
I will feel no hopelessness or desperation in my time of dying... I'll probably feel anxious and very curious... Perhaps a little sad because of those I must leave behind, but in my heart and mind, I'm certain that will never really happen anyways. | |
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| Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 6/1/2008 12:24:17 PM |
when all of his other options have run out, and he knows the end is near, will instinctively pray to God for help and/or comfort. This assumes that the person is of a religion that believes in an afterlife. Many do not, or believe, as I do, that God has chosen not to give us knowledge of what happens after we die while we live. Makes things simpler, in my opinion. I'm Jewish, and follow God's commandments because they are God's commandments, not because I expect to be rewarded in the future. If it should happen that there is an afterlife, fine. If not, then I have lived my life as I wanted, and as I felt it should be lived.
Like many of you, I've had a few life threatening experiences. I was reasonably calm. Yes, a bit fearful of the unknown, of course. But looking back on my life, I was able to say I lived it well, and was satisfied. Now, when I survived, the rest is a bonus.
In any case, it sure has been interesting living as part of this fascinating species, hasn't it?
What a great life! Thanks, God, whether or not there's an afterlife!  | |
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| Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 6/2/2008 4:54:03 AM |
I would say that people react more out of fear itself in the moment, be it death or whatever circumstances they face, and fear will cause a person to do things they wouldn't normally do.
Yep.
Turning to God out of fear, is not truly turning to God imo, it is more a last ditch attempt to preserve the self interests, which I consider contrary to everything God represents..
Then your God must be one of integrity,
in which case He must respect at least a significant percentage of His atheist/agnostic "creations"
All the non believers out there who follow their creed of life without regular thought of deity, [an attitude they have arrived at because they follow a subjective lifestyle backed up with an objective reality], and who back it up by living unselfish, altruistic lives, should be worthy of the "expectations" of a higher power.
This is where the Abrahamic god fails dismally, at least in respect to the Christian and Muslim superstition, [I don't believe that is too strong a word to use].
On the one hand, these religions espouse "love and goodness" and generally being a "non offensive " person. But in the next breath, if a certain dogma is'nt followed, then no matter how much you follow your heart, you are left out of the club.
You are even tortured for your integrity by being given a one way ticket to Hades!
What the?!!!
Surely a true hearted atheist is more worthy of heaven than a half hearted theist and therefore , in reality, not only does He not exist, but, even if He did, He would'nt really give a shit anyway.
Apologies for getting off topic.
Result of a certain reaction between yeast and sugar.
Or two... | |
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| Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 6/2/2008 7:39:33 AM |
This is where the Abrahamic god fails dismally, at least in respect to the Christian and Muslim superstition, [I don't believe that is too strong a word to use].
On the one hand, these religions espouse "love and goodness" and generally being a "non offensive " person. But in the next breath, if a certain dogma is'nt followed, then no matter how much you follow your heart, you are left out of the club.
You are even tortured for your integrity by being given a one way ticket to Hades!
What the?!!!
Surely a true hearted atheist is more worthy of heaven than a half hearted theist and therefore , in reality, not only does He not exist, but, even if He did, He would'nt really give a shit anyway.
The letter kills, but the Spirit brings life.
Show me someone who is considered unworthy of 'heaven' and I will show you someone who is. And it won't be because they are honest or a liar, a believer or a non believer. It will because of the Abrahamic covenant of faith and that faith being dependant upon God, not man.
The reason people so easily believe in the reward and punishments of religious dogma, is because of a lack of faith and understanding in the first place....and the reason the belief of rewards and punishments worries so many non-believers, is because they have only known a reward and punishment reality in this life.
IT would be easy to convince a person that God rewards and punishes according to man's abilities, when they are already in the mindset of rewards and punishments. And because this type of philosophy is all that they have, of course they will categorize God with the same agenda. | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 23 | |
| Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 6/2/2008 9:57:13 AM | Impossible to say "every man" first of all. Beyond that it's silly to think that a person who has (probably) spent considerable time and effort learning about, studying, and evaluating religions in general (as many agnostics and atheists actually have), and has made a conscious rational decision that he cannot and does not believe in any of them at the end of the day, is going to just suddenly begin panic-praying like that. To what would he pray to? Would he say a Christian prayer? Jewish? Muslim? A Buddhist mantra? Or ?? If he does not truly believe at heart in the dogmas and myths of any of the major organized religions, then HOW can he even pray?
All of religious belief and clinging to religious beliefs, and so forth, boils down to fear of and inability to accept (which is quite understandable) the brevity of our human lives, and the finality of death. Once, or IF, one is ever able to come to some sort of terms with these, then religion becomes increasingly superfluous basically.
Contrary to old cliches, there are atheists in foxholes (so to speak). In fact I just read a very interesting obituary of one in the other day's paper. He was in his 90's, had lived a rich (literally he'd gotten quite rich , coming from next to nothing) and full life, and was actually the man who'd invented "french fries" and partnered with Ray Kroc (founder of McDonald's here in America). Thus his fortune. He continued to eat his own "invention" nearly daily , the obit said, even in his 80's and early 90's, and would usually go through the "drive-thrus" in his Lincoln Town Car which said "SPUDS" on the license plates. He stated flat out he wished to be given no religious type of wakes or memorial services at all, due to the fact he was a non-believer. He was quoted in the obit as saying, shortly before his death, "I'm a facts and figures man. If it doesn't add up, it doesn't make sense, I'm not buying it, period." | |
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| Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 6/2/2008 1:59:57 PM | the OP looks like another theist implying that he is otherwise in order to appear impartial. I think we've all seen this kind of ploy. The "I practice no religion" comment was vague enough to imply a lack of belief in a creator, as was the intention I'm sure, but the "will instinctively pray to God" dogma is a pretty strong indicator of your beliefs. I wonder if you are going to completely miss the point and reply with some comment about how you didn't come outright and state that you believe in God.
The believer, however, at his time of defeat, does not to feel the need employ logic which debunks the existence of an afterlife in order to comfort himself. Nor do doctors feel the need to employ logic to debunk the existence of disease. Nor do mathematicians feel the need to debunk the fact that 2+2 = 4. Why would debunking your beliefs provide you comfort?
Perhaps I should say that his instinct is to pray, but many may override instinct with pride. False. And insulting.
Here's a run down of the original post:
Line 1: False generalization.
Line 2: Complete nonsense/dogma.
Line 3: Deceitful attempt to appear impartial.
Line4: Discuss
I've lost patients before, and before their end they felt no 'instinctive need to pray for God.' | |
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| Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 6/2/2008 2:21:13 PM | Just another thought. Would any theists like to explain how this thread's OP is making a claim that is anything more than something to make theists feel better by telling themselves "They can't be right, they'll realize it, even if it's right before they die."? The point the OP tries to make doesn't seem to have swayed those non-believers on here, and there have even been some who have been at death's door but had no need for prayer, which is good evidence to disprove the OP's hypothesis.
Am I at least on the right track here in thinking this message is meant more for theists than non-theists? It seems like if it's right it would be the opposite as theists would already know this and not need convincing while non-theists would be convinced by the argument the OP makes and the evidence he provides. | |
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