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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 1:30:32 AM | Bits and Pieces of this is scattered amongst threads and Posters are saying so and so said this on the Abortion Issue...then, try to find the thread. I thought a separate, specific thread might help. Reason: This is a Huge Issue in the Election this year due to the popularity of
the Vote of Women.
Plus, it gets me when Beliefs get twisted to come off as being 'against Women or any other Gender/Race, etc.'
1. One must understand what McCain's stand on it is. He supports abortions in the case of rape, incest, a mother's health, etc. He does not support 'Partial Birth Abortion'.
2. Obama Supports Partial Birth Abortion where a baby's neck is broken or smashed with a hammer like tool and delivered..a dead baby. A once, fully formed healthy viable life.
Roe vs. Wade should not, in my opinion, be overturned and that is not what McCain is for. He is for the 'Ban on Partial Birth Abortions'. This prevents Roe vs. Wade from becoming an issue of the rights of Women... to turning into a 'birth control' method. Being realistic... very Realistic... Abortions are getting wayyyy out of hand. When does the Rights of a Viable actual Baby come into play? I mean really.
Before anyone jumps...yes, McCain has also said he believes Abortion decisions should be returned to the State level. But, McCain is known to be pro smaller Fed. gov and more rights to the States. Nothing new.
Now, comes the issue of Hillary Supporters changing from voting Dem. since H. Clinton did not get the Dem. nom... to voting for McCain. This is a very reasonable option for those Voters since they agree with Clinton's platform ... but, not Obama's... yet can still vote McCain with a good conscious.
See link below for Citation Stats.
http://www.lifenews.com/nat3296.html | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 4:12:48 AM | This is one of the big scare tactics used by the dem's. Taking a way a woman's right and tax cuts for the rich.
Abortions are getting wayyyy out of hand Because of the need for human tissue to experiment on during research. Abortion is a big business. That is why most abortionist want the government funds for stem cell research.
When does the Rights of a Viable actual Baby come into play? I mean really. Only after the baby has left it's mother would the baby have any rights. Then government would be able to take care of baby.
Now, comes the issue of Hillary Supporters changing from voting ... to voting for McCain. Maybe they don't think taxing the nation into prosperity will work, and Obama is way too liberal for even them. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 6:10:36 AM |
Roe vs. Wade should not, in my opinion, be overturned and that is not what McCain is for.
And McCain is your candidate of choice ? 
And how much research did you put in to this, before posting ?
From HIS OWN WEBSITE ?
Overturning Roe v. Wade
John McCain believes Roe v. Wade is a flawed decision that must be overturned, and as president he will nominate judges who understand that courts should not be in the business of legislating from the bench.
Constitutional balance would be restored by the reversal of Roe v. Wade, returning the abortion question to the individual states. The difficult issue of abortion should not be decided by judicial fiat.
However, the reversal of Roe v. Wade represents only one step in the long path toward ending abortion. Once the question is returned to the states, the fight for life will be one of courage and compassion - the courage of a pregnant mother to bring her child into the world and the compassion of civil society to meet her needs and those of her newborn baby. The pro-life movement has done tremendous work in building and reinforcing the infrastructure of civil society by strengthening faith-based, community, and neighborhood organizations that provide critical services to pregnant mothers in need. This work must continue and government must find new ways to empower and strengthen these armies of compassion. These important groups can help build the consensus necessary to end abortion at the state level. As John McCain has publicly noted, "At its core, abortion is a human tragedy. To effect meaningful change, we must engage the debate at a human level."
http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/issues/
95b18512-d5b6-456e-90a2-12028d71df58.htm
Let's see how he voted ?
John McCain on Abortion
Voting Record
Supports repealing Roe v. Wade. (May 2007)
Overturn Roe v. Wade, but keep incest & rape exceptions. (Jan 2000)
Voted YES on barring HHS grants to organizations that perform abortions. (Oct 2007)
Voted NO on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005)
Voted YES on maintaining ban on Military Base Abortions. (Jun 2000)
http://www.ontheissues.org/john_mccain.htm
Hey Mom....look......it's 1952 again. 
And what does this mean for Americans ?
When Sarah Jane Austin 3rd, fifteen, gets pregnant at her private school somewhere in the Hamptons, Dad's limo driver will pick her up, while his secretary calls the school to say that (due to a death in the family) Sarah has to go to Europe/Canada for a week - to pay her respects to her beloved grandmother. 
Working Americans will have no such access, because "their rights" are being protected by people like McCain.
If you want to cut down on abortions, start allowing sex education and birth control to be made more available.
The sad thing is that the same religious groups don't want abortion, nor want to allow any real access to birth control.
Their solution ?
Abstinence...... in a society where corporations use sex to sell everything from soap to soup.
Abortions (per capita) (most recent) by country
#1 Russia: 19.2885 per 1,000 people
#2 Bulgaria: 13.0232 per 1,000 people
#3 Hungary: 7.69032 per 1,000 people
#4 Cuba: 7.39958 per 1,000 people
#5 Sweden: 4.16452 per 1,000 people
#6 United States: 4.0945 per 1,000 people
#7 Norway: 2.9767 per 1,000 people
#8 New Zealand: 2.76902 per 1,000 people
#9 Iceland: 2.71958 per 1,000 people
#10 Japan: 2.69214 per 1,000 people
#11 France: 2.65644 per 1,000 people
#12 Israel: 2.47077 per 1,000 people
#13 Italy: 2.30861 per 1,000 people
#14 Canada: 2.15056 per 1,000 people
#15 Finland: 1.8924 per 1,000 people
#16 Germany: 1.18811 per 1,000 people
#17 India: 0.552036 per 1,000 people
#18 Greece: 0.113986 per 1,000 people
#19 Poland: 0.0144976 per 1,000 people
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_abo_percap-
health-abortions-per-capita
Generally, with a few exceptions, countries with better access to birth control and sex education easily have far fewer abortions per capita - up to half as many as the USA.
Birth
In the United States, the teen birth rate is nearly 11 times higher than that of the Netherlands, nearly five times higher than the rate in France, and nearly four times higher than that in Germany.
Teen Birth Rate
Abortion
In the United States, the teen abortion rate is nearly eight times higher than the rate in Germany, nearly seven times higher than that in the Netherlands, and nearly three times higher than the rate in France.
U.S. HIV/STI Rates Also Compare Poorly.
HIV in Young Women and Men
In the United States, the estimated HIV prevalence rate in young men ages 15 to 24 is over five times higher than the rate in Germany, nearly three times higher than the rate in the Netherlands, and about 1 ½ times higher than that in France.
HIV Prevalence Rate in Young Men
In the United States, the estimated HIV prevalence rate in young women ages 15 to 24 is six times higher than the rate in Germany, nearly three times higher than the rate in the Netherlands, and is the same as that in France.
HIV Prevalence Rate in Young Women
Syphilis
In the United States, the teen syphilis rate is over six times higher than that of the Netherlands, over five times higher than the rate in former West Germany, and nearly three times higher than that in former East Germany. Data are not available for France.
Gonorrhea
In the United States, the teen gonorrhea rate is over 74 times higher than that in the Netherlands and France, over 66 times higher than the rate in former West Germany, and over 38 times higher than that in former East Germany.
Teen Gonorrhea Rate
Chlamydia
In the United States, the teen chlamydia rate is over 20 times higher than that in France. Data are not available for Germany or the Netherlands.
American Youth Have Sex at the Same Age or Even Earlier than Youth in Europe. Young People in the U.S. Have More Sexual Partners.
In the United States, young people typically initiate sexual intercourse at the same age or even earlier compared to young people in the Netherlands and France. Data are not available for Germany.
Finally, the proportion of sexually active teenage men and women ages 18 to 19 that had two or more sexual partners within the past year is substantially higher in the United States than in France. Data on number of sexual partners are not available for Germany or the Netherlands. Having two or more sexual partners increases youth's potential risk of becoming infected with HIV and other STIs.
http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/PUBLICATIONS/factsheet/fsest.htm
The Netherlands is one of the most liberal societies in the world - and is orders of magnitudes ahead of the USA in teen birth rate, less abortions, less STD's , less sexual partners......etc.
Why ?
Because young people have access to what they need to prevent those things.
What this proves ?
Education and birth control are far more effective solutions to high abortion rates, and better overall for many other sexually related issues than any other proposal.
Women will get abortions, if the feel they need them. Banning their access legally means the back room butchers go back into business, and the rich avoid all the mess by sending their children out of the country for a trip. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 6:19:13 AM | Legal medical procedures shouldn't be a major part of any election campaign.
If it is...I submit that either the candidate is unqualified,an opportunist.....or that the voters that want said procedures to BE a major part of the campaign really aren't act as responsible citizens.
By that I mean,they are allowing their stance on a single (and again, legal) issue to be the sole deciding factor in casting their vote.
Until abortion is somehow declared illegal in the United States (an almost certain impossibility now that woman have more political power) it should be treated,IMHO,as the private medical matter that it is. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 6:21:41 AM | Abortion is a tough one, indeed. In a perfect world, people wouldnt have them but we live in a very imperfect world and its a shame that fetuses are sacrificed like that.
I apply logic from my own home and family to things like this and I would NEVER encourage my daughter to have one if it came to that, but neither would i EVER presume to encourage or discourage anyone else nor force a decision on her ....you carry a child and bear responsibility for it, you get to decide.
The extreme stuff, though, the partial births.......sounds really ugly. I dont even like to think about it. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 7:46:23 AM | I don't believe in them as a form of birth control either. I do think it's totally a woman's choice. I also think that things like access to birth control and sex education should be everywhere, and not even questioned.
I also think women should not be forced to go into butchers in back alleyways to get them, and I know they will if they can't legally get them. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 8:09:54 AM | If Rowe v. Wade is overturned then the states will have to decide if they want to allow it or not. I happen to live in CA and it will be a shame to see how many more abortions we have due to other states illegalizing the practice. We'll be seen as the baby butcher state when in fact there would be a lot of teenagers from conservative states traveling here to get their abortions.
Bottom line is that you can't make a law and stop it all together. No one would be in prison, right. People will find a way of getting it done regardless of the consequences. Wirehanger abortions were a reality that no woman wants to think about. But it was a viable option for scared women who weren't in a position to have a baby. (no pun intended) | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 9:42:17 AM |
The extreme stuff, though, the partial births.......sounds really ugly. I dont even like to think about it.
Neither did I...and I guess was afraid to delve into it for what I would find. I finally did after another Poster here went into it. I was shocked. Had no real idea till then. It's wretched and horrible. No excuses (including in defense of Roe vs. Wade. will change my mind on that because that is taking Roe vs. Wade beyond it's limits morally and in the spirit of R vs W).
This is not just about abortion or Roe vs Wade at all. Too many liberties have been taken with innocent lives (this is not the Military front as some want to compare the taking of lives to)... whereas, I do support Roe vs Wade, I absolutely want a ban on Partial Birth Abortions and it's crystal clear that Obama voted and will vote for it. McCain..against it.
Now, the Media wants to lead us to believe that McCain is in trouble with his base. I say that they are using that a tactic. I honestly don't think there is one true Conservative who would vote for a Nominee (Obama) who is for Partial Birth Abortion...no matter how much they think their Party Nominee has strayed away from the core of Conservatism and takes a more Centrist view. Not a single real Conservative will cave into spite and allow even the chance of an Obama stance as this get a foothold. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 9:45:44 AM | So when a three year old child blows their head off with a handgun left negligently on a table, that's pretty gruesome too.
But people still have a right to have handguns, and no one passes laws against doing things to protect them. It's a right to own a gun.
Same thing here.
You don't want Roe vs Wade overturned - yet you support a candidate who CLEARLY wants that very thing.
Interesting.
Get ready for those late term abortions to be done in a back alley way, with a spoon. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 9:50:23 AM | MG, and in addition to preventive measures, if one would outlaw abortion then one should also be prepared to support that mother in every way that society can ... during the pregnancy and after.
What seems so very hypocritical to me is that the same people who are anti-abortion seem the first in line to condemn young mothers when they need help and would withhold it from them.
So, as long as its in the womb, we'll protect it, but once in the world...on your own, sucker.
Strange policy........
Oh, yeah, and of course, little white fetuses need all that protection, but little brown children overseas.......hey, just collatoral damage, were at war, happens all the time, blah, blah, blah.
Very strange policies....... | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 10:01:44 AM | The above two posts are exactly what scares me.
You cannot compare deliberately breaking a baby's neck or crushing it's skull by a doctor and/or other 'professional' in order to purposefully kill it ... to accidently leaving a gun around. One is negligence, the other is murder and how many kids are killed by a gun lying around compared to abortions?
And, by gosh, yes, I am for the 'right to bear arms'... We've had that from the beginning. One doesn't negate the other. That's grasping at straws on the comparison. We didn't have Roe vs. Wade from the beginning and even when it was implemented, it was NOT intended to be used for birth control as it is now.
Accidents with guns will happen. How many gun owners are Right and how many are Left? You would have to know that to know real stats. Also, the type of accident. Guns left around or kids getting them out of cabinets, etc. meaning the age of the handler. I think ALL gun owners should take extreme measures to keep the guns locked up away where no kid can get access.
Why are we on gun control?? Wouldn't that be enough, in and of itself, to warrant another thread?
This Partial Birth Abortion will be a hard hard issue for Obama to overcome if he thinks he will get any Conservative votes. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 10:03:16 AM | | Those abortions will still be done.....in alleyways. At least this way those women may be able to be reached by the health care services, and convinced not to do it. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 10:13:49 AM |
Those abortions will still be done.....in alleyways. At least this way those women may be able to be reached by the health care services, and convinced not to do it.
Really? Hmmmm.. And, since Iraq deaths and gun control deaths, etc. etc. are being brought up... how exactly is allowing Partial Birth Abortions to be done/encouraged to continue as a means of birth control...with taxpayer money.... any different than supporting the Troops no matter where they may be... I mean war is going to be waged anyway...right?
Is this a matter of 'pick one's poison' when taking a stand on an Issue? | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 10:15:40 AM | The moment I see anti-women's right folks lining up to adopt inner-city orphans I'll start to believe they have a leg to stand on concerning the 'sanctity of life' arguement.
Ironically, virtually none of them oppose their tax dollars being used to kill children in other countries.
(BTW....the is NOT directed @ the artist formerly know as Jedi Girl)
My solution would be to have mothers (especially the young ones) carry any conception past the 3-month mark to term (unless extremely high risk to health), put the child up for adoption & be required to donate a LARGE chunk of their future time to staffing low-cost daycare facilities. Children born to 'families' that are ill-equipped to deal w/ them are, in the big picture, more likely to be a drain on society. If paternity can be proven, the fathers should be held to this standard, also. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 10:24:26 AM |
The moment I see anti-women's right folks lining up to adopt inner-city orphans I'll start to believe they have a leg to stand on concerning the 'sanctity of life' arguement.
Actually the wait list is long. I know that for a fact... well, inner city NY and NJ for a fact... thing is it pays for certain 'organizations' to keep the kids orphans. It's a money scam game.. with the kids as pawns. For each child born, the wait list is approx. 5 families/couples waiting on each new baby. But, the 'system' keeps em in the system...for those Federal dollars... unless one is wealthy enough to hire an attorney for private adoption. Many many couples don't care what Race the baby is... all they want is a baby...and the system stops em from adopting.
I splained in another post why I changed from Jedi Girl...to Padawan. I had to be truthful within my own self... alas... I am still but a Jedi in training (what padawan means). Sooo, keeping in step with 'truthful'... I changed it.
EDIT:
My solution would be to have mothers (especially the young ones) carry any conception past the 3-month mark to term (unless extremely high risk to health), put the child up for adoption & be required to donate a LARGE chunk of their future time to staffing low-cost daycare facilities. Children born to 'families' that are ill-equipped to deal w/ them are, in the big picture, more likely to be a drain on society. If paternity can be proven, the fathers should be held to this standard, also.
I agree. And, change the adoption laws to give these appropriate childless Couples and/or appropriately equipped financially/emotionally Singles (who want to adopt) a better chance for adoption. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 10:33:47 AM |
http://www.womenforbarackobama.com/Women_s_Issues.htmlBarack Obama is an original co-sponsor of legislation to expand access to contraception, health information and preventive services to help reduce unintended pregnancies. Introduced in January 2007, the Prevention First Act will increase funding for family planning and comprehensive sex education that teaches both abstinence and safe sex methods. The Act will also end insurance discrimination against contraception, improve awareness about emergency contraception, and provide compassionate assistance to rape victims. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 10:51:10 AM | Many Others are for that part also Skoochie.
It does not negate, in any shape or form, the Partial Birth Abortion part. Does it? Isn't that trying to say... here's the 'good' part... now, here's the 'other' part. Why just call it as it is. The 'Other' is the 'horrible' part. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 11:44:39 AM | inner-city orphans
I didn't say anything about 'each new baby' in that part of my post. We all know most folks want a cute, newborn baby. I was referring to school age children who are without parents. If they really care about the sanctity of life, then step up & save one that's REALLY in need of such.
Agreed on the endless red tape nightmare, tho. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 11:49:38 AM | | Padawn you are free to offer some quote or cite that reflects Obama's desire to overturn the 2003 ban on partial birth abortions. Feel free to show me where Obama can be quoted saying anything of the sort. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 11:51:55 AM | Nightwing,
I was there. The inner cities of NY and NJ. I witnessed Families/Couples/Singles trying to adopt those children/teens... not babies and I watched Social Workers get frustrated and try to buck the system..time and time again. But, the Homes.. the Houses where these children are kept want the Money. The free Federal money. Not all of them. A few are truly worthy of having the assistance. They care about the orphans and want them adopted out. And, those have a much higher rate of seeing their Residents/Orphans adopted out. But, the few are far between.. Unfortunately. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 11:58:29 AM |
Padawn you are free to offer some quote or cite that reflects Obama's desire to overturn the 2003 ban on partial birth abortions. Feel free to show me where Obama can be quoted saying anything of the sort.
Here's one for starters. Google it. There's more.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20080514/pl_usnw/naral_s_choice__is_anyone_surprised_about_out_of_the_mainstream_naral_s_choice_of_barack_obama_for_president
And, Here's One...Unbiased...since it gives the 'bad light' to both Obama and McCain
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/may/20/rhetoric-and-abortion/ | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 12:08:09 PM |
For each child born, the wait list is approx. 5 families/couples waiting on each new baby. But, the 'system' keeps em in the system...for those Federal dollars... unless one is wealthy enough to hire an attorney for private adoption. Many many couples don't care what Race the baby is... all they want is a baby...and the system stops em from adopting.
Your former post concentrated on newborns WITHOUT mention of the less 'wanted' older children of whom I was speaking.....I was only clarifying my position. Which I maintain in respect to folks who start preaching for 'morality' in others w/out doing anything to rectify the situation themselves. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 12:21:04 PM | For a white person to adopt a child of color they must have additional couseling and supervision to raise the child with a cultural awareness. Adding additional layers of Social services (beaurocracy) to the process. For the most part adoption of children of color by whites is discouraged.
"One of the most widely used arguments against transracial adoption is that white parents are unprepared to teach their children the survival skills they will need to live in a racist culture."
I am all for abortion. We might as well kill the little **stard now as wait for him/her to grow up and commit enough crimes to justify it later. Though sucking the brains out of a partially crushed skull is a bit messier than lethal injection. It's meant to keep from spawning another welfare baby. Pro-Choice is really not wanting to pay for more **stards.
sigh.. end of sarcastic rant.
Why are people who are anti-abortion, pro death penalty and vice-verse? Why do some people care about the disproportional numbers of blacks in prison but not aborted. Why is that? | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 12:27:24 PM | Because it allows them to safely catagorize/separate the 'warm fuzzy' images in their heads from the 'cold prickly' ones.....affording illusional societal safety w/out actually having to do anything about the problems.
Conveniently avoiding the $$$ factor, as well.
Kind of like protesting the killing of seals by Native tribes & then going out & ordering veal for dinner. | |
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