| What do Gnostic's say on original sin?
Posted: 6/12/2008 10:33:15 AM | | I am curious to know what Gnostic's believe about original sin. From what I have been reading, and it is an introductory book on Sophian Gnosticism, the Gnostic view is one that says that Christ came not to free us from original sin but from ignorance.....I am curious of what to make of it? | |
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| What do Gnostic's say on original sin?
Posted: 6/12/2008 10:50:09 AM |
the Gnostic view is one that says that Christ came not to free us from original sin but from ignorance
Correct. Gnostics don't believe in original sin, as the very concept of original sin as outlayed by the church is counter to the traditional Gnostic version of the creation story. Because it was not God but Samael/Yaldabaoth/the Demiurge that initially created man and earth, and who sought to keep man ignorant and enslaved, it was actually an agent of God, not the devil, that freed Adam and Eve by offering them knowledge (after breathign spirit into them.) | |
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| What do Gnostic's say on original sin?
Posted: 6/12/2008 10:57:20 AM | | thanks oddandy. From what I have read of the creation it is thought that a false god created an imperfect world, where does this idea come from? What writings, proof etc is there to back this thought up? | |
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| What do Gnostic's say on original sin?
Posted: 6/12/2008 11:11:46 AM | Well, start with reading Genesis and look at the multiple creations of man 
Then read the rest of the OT and compare/contrast that god with the God embodied in Christ in the NT. Not that the real God isn't to be found in the OT, but often it's the Demiurge. Not hard to tell when ; )
There were a few different sects of Gnostics, but at least 2 of the major ones considered themselves part of the Christian church, and it was the papacy that expelled them. Their writings date back to other biblical and apocryphal writings. A collection of these writings were found in Nag Hammadi Egypt in 1945, and have come to be known collectively as The Nag Hammadi Library, which you can read online here:
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html
For the creation story you'll want to read: The Hypostasis of the Archons and On the Origin of the World. | |
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| What do Gnostic's say on original sin?
Posted: 6/12/2008 11:19:01 AM | | thanks again, esp for the nag hammadi link. Genesis is one of my favorite books and in every reading I find new things to marvel at. However I have taken the writings of the creation of man, not as multiple creations, but as more of a summary or review again of the original. | |
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| What do Gnostic's say on original sin?
Posted: 6/12/2008 11:56:15 AM |
and I would challenge anyone to be able to prove that there are two entities claiming to be God, from scripture.
From which scriptures? All of the texts originally accepted by the Christian church, or just the ones that survived the council of Nicea? If the latter, why? Do you think they were justified in throwing out all the books they discarded? Which translation of the scriptures? King James, Catholic, Darby, Holman? Some of the translations are so different as to give completely different meaning and context to many passages.
I'm not here to argue with anyone or "prove" anything. The guy asked a question and I answered it with where he could read further on the matter. | |
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| What do Gnostic's say on original sin?
Posted: 6/12/2008 12:49:08 PM |
From which scriptures? All of the texts originally accepted by the Christian church, or just the ones that survived the council of Nicea? If the latter, why? Do you think they were justified in throwing out all the books they discarded? Which translation of the scriptures? King James, Catholic, Darby, Holman? Some of the translations are so different as to give completely different meaning and context to many passages.
I wasn't aware you were going to pull a rabbit out of the hat after the fact, my response was to your claim initially that suggested the Old and New testaments, So maybe it was my mistake to assume you were talking about the bible awhen referring to the Old and New Testaments....you should be more clear if you meant to imply a different version than what is considered as the Bible by the majority of people's understanding.......whatever translation is used is irrelevan,t because the scriptures can be traced to the original language of the greek and hebrew via biblical concordance tools. Though I will agree that translations we see and you have mentioned are often biased to select the word that fits best for the translators concepts of the passage..howevr this has never been an issue with me as I always have owned my own concordance, and t has gone hand in hand with my studies.
By making a claim as you have in yor initial post, you have formulated a form of argument, if you don't wish to discuss this or have it challenged then I won't continue in forming an argument against your post....but it loses al credibility when it is not open to be challenged.
peace. | |
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| What do Gnostic's say on original sin?
Posted: 6/12/2008 2:46:51 PM | The 'gnostics' rejected the concept of origional sin because of their overal world view. In the orthodox world view, mankind and the world were made perfect and pronounced 'good', but introduced sin through disobedience. Now whilst it is wrong to charicterise the gnostics as a homogenious group, they mainly disagreed with this premise. The world was not made by the supreme god it was either made by a lesser god, an evil god, or it came into existance by divine tragic coincidence. There is therfore no need for origional sin as the world was already made imperfect or evil, it cannot be saved as such but must be escaped.
Whilst oddandy is right to point out that at least 2 major sects consider themselves christian he does not go far enough and this is certainly true of many of the sects. He is quite wrong however to state that the papacy expelled the gnostic's this is simply bad history. The gnostics were for the most part a spent force by the time of Nicaea and the Papacy does not emerge as the overarching power structure envisaged until after this date whilst orthodoxy was not in a strong enough position to 'expel' and persecture gnostics before this date.
A question my lecturer often posed to me was, what happened to all the gnostics? | |
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| What do Gnostic's say on original sin?
Posted: 6/12/2008 4:27:08 PM | I consider myself a gnostic. Gnostic ideas continue to flourish in Persia with the Maniceans. Manicheism existed in one form or another from France to Western China until the 16th century. Alchemy had elements of gnosticism and gnostic ideas can be seen in today's New Age movement. Satanism owes a tip of the hat towards the gnostics as the idea of a malevolent creator fit in with their worldview.
So we never died out, we got smart and hid out at the fringes of christian society....until one day when the stars are right.... | |
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| What do Gnostic's say on original sin?
Posted: 6/12/2008 5:28:44 PM | Yes, i am quite aware of the gnostic outgrowths thnak you, cathars, bogomils, manichee's, Paulicans... i actually know a mandaean. So no gnostics didnt entirely die out, but the concept that they hid on the fringes of christian society, waitting for the stars to be right, so to say is laughable, wait any longer and christianity wont be around! In my opinion there is a good PhD waiting to be written about the assimilation of gnostic ideas in the development of monasticism.
We must however realise that there is a world of difference between gnosticism and the ideaological free-for-all of new age hippies. | |
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| What do Gnostic's say on original sin?
Posted: 6/12/2008 9:48:47 PM | I knew a Gnostic who said some very strange things before they disappeared.
When I was reading about helium and superfluidity, a ton of the metaphors the person was spouting off shortly before I lost contact with them, were actually describing the mechanics down to a tee.
It was a chilling experience. And that's all I can say.
They may have been a student of chemistry though. Pretty cruel trick if they were. lol | |
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| What do Gnostic's say on original sin?
Posted: 6/13/2008 6:49:50 AM | I am looking to hear from Gnostic's on this idea of original sin and the creation. Truly I am wanting answers from their world view. My youngest son is now identifying himself as a Gnostic and I am seeking to understand.
From what I have read, thus far, it would appear that Gnostic's are not monotheistic since they/you attribute the creation to a lesser god and not the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. And if that be the case how do they/you identify or root their/your belief system or ideology in Judaism? | |
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| What do Gnostic's say on original sin?
Posted: 6/13/2008 7:25:57 AM | | Oddandy summed up what gnostics feel about original sin. For me i take the flawed creator with a grain of salt, it's all metaphor. The origins of gnosticism are cloudy but they take ideas from the neo-platonists, roman, greek and egyption mystery religions, the zoroasters, buddhism and judaism. Gnosticism is a sycretic faith. | |
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| What do Gnostic's say on original sin?
Posted: 6/13/2008 7:39:17 AM | | I have just recently started a world religions class and as I have been reading the religions of the Egyptians, Mesopotamians and the Greeks I have found many correlations with them and what I am reading in the gnostic book my son gave me. The idea of mystery, male and female, multi-gods....all this is contrary to what I read and know of the God of Abraham, and is in fact the very religious ideology that he called Abram from. | |
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| What do Gnostic's say on original sin?
Posted: 6/19/2008 6:12:38 PM | He is quite wrong however to state that the papacy expelled the gnostic's this is simply bad history. The gnostics were for the most part a spent force by the time of Nicaea and the Papacy does not emerge as the overarching power structure envisaged until after this date whilst orthodoxy was not in a strong enough position to 'expel' and persecture gnostics before this date.
True, but perhaps this is a matter of semantics? Prior to the discovery of Nag Hammadi, most of what we knew of classical Gnosticism came from anti-Gnostic literature written by Iraneus (sp?) and St. Athanasius, both of whom were bishops in "the universal church" and both of whom are revered even today by the Catholic church. Though "the Papacy" at that time was not yet the military power it became, it was well on it's way at that time, and I do believe that even Iraneus' and Athanasius' claims of "apostolic lineage" are and were the same claims of lineage made by the same "universal church" of today, and both men (as well as other anti-Gnostics) were indeed bishops of said "universal church" that would later become the Catholic church and follow the same traditions and heirarchy (both earthly and heavenly) that these men followed. If my historical interpretation is wrong, however, I'd be quite open to revision. Unlike some historical figures that threw out that which was inconvenient, I'm interested in the whole truth.
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| What do Gnostic's say on original sin?
Posted: 6/20/2008 10:15:42 AM | I can see that Gnosticism is a very broad concept, and open to a variety of interpretations. But then anything that tries to explain the unexplainable and mysterious is open to interpretation.
SO I now have another question...If Gnosticism is rooted in Judaism or the Kabbalah, which is rooted in Judaism, or so I think ... and it is the Jewish belief that God created earth as good then, again, where do Gnostic's get the idea of a bad creation, created by an evil god? This is more in keeping with the religions of the Egyptians and other people groups in the Mesopotamia region. | |
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| What do Gnostic's say on original sin?
Posted: 6/20/2008 2:48:53 PM | I wondered that myself but i understand the idea of an imperfect creator creating an imperfect world lies with buddhism. Buddhists were known to have lived in the holy land, their notion that life is an illusion and a divine spirit must have influenced some of the first gnostics.
There is also the theory that Jesus was a buddhist but like many wild theories surrounding him, it can't be verified. | |
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