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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/20/2008 12:13:45 AM | This thread isn't for a discussion on Mormonism 101. This thread is about a statement a guy made that was a Mormon. He was an apostle of the Mormon church at one time. The statement was made about March 9th, 1879....almost 130 years ago. Most prophecies that people make contain a few to several parts. If a person makes a prophecy, even in our day and time and just gets a couple parts right out of several parts to their prophecy, people will usually be impressed while the rest think they just got lucky at guessing.
For a prophecy that is 130 years old, how well do you think Pratt did in making his? I have put in brackets what I feel is actually happening today and wonder how he did get lucky to even be correct 130 years down the road.
Elder Orson Pratt also described the anarchy that would sweep the nation: "What then will be the condition of that people, when this great and terrible war shall come? It will be very different from the war between the North and the South. Do you wish me to describe it? I will do so. It will be a war of neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, county against county, state against state, and they will go forth destroying and being destroyed, [and manufacturing will, [in a great measure,] cease, for a time, among the American nation.] Why? Because in these terrible wars, they will not be privileged to manufacture; there will be too much bloodshed, [too much mobocracy,] too much going forth in bands and destroying and pillaging the land to suffer people to pursue any local vocation with any degree of safety. [What will become of millions of the farmers upon that land? They will leave their farms] and they will flee before the ravaging armies from place to place; and thus will they go forth burning and pillaging the whole country; and that great and powerful nation, will be wasted away, unless they repent." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 20:151, given on March 9, 1879.)
One more thing to consider of this warring within our nation he predicts, could this take place from home grown terrorists and or citizens getting tired of the goverment finally running all aspects of their lives and finally revolt? Could the citizens of this country actually end up warring with our own police and military agencies? Leaving many of those people in the police and military agencies not wanting to go and detain and or shoot family/friends/etc.? A decision that could actually weaken the police agencies and military from controlling the possible rebellion? | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/20/2008 8:14:35 AM | To truly understand this 'prophecy' you have to understand the world Orson Pratt was living in at the time. This was territorial Utah and the US federal government was constantly maneuvering to end Mormon theocratic control of the territorial government through its anti-polygamy laws. The federal government had already declared Utah to be in insurrection once before and everywhere in the territory there was a climate of fear. Now combine this with the common belief among Mormons at the time, that the world was on the very precipice of chaos and destruction heralding the return of Christ. To them, they were merely waiting out the days before the US tore itself apart so they could step in a pick up the pieces as it were.
Orson Pratt's statement here is not prophecy, it is propaganda. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/20/2008 8:22:47 AM | | go to the Leagues of the South website or wiki it for a general outline, they are after the jefferson clause which is government change every 200 years in the constitution | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/20/2008 4:29:16 PM | Paulthesane said.... "Orson Pratt's statement here is not prophecy, it is propaganda."
That is a matter of opinion as we all will have who might address what Pratt prophecied would come to pass one day. If you read what Pratt said, you can find his prophecy fulfilled in many other nations who have been at war within themselves, one goverment toppling another. This prophecy is literally true for a few states in Africa today though he meant it for America. The point being is could the USA become what Pratt said it would become? Right now we have a ruling federal goverment in the USA. There is a constant growing riff between two parties as never before, blaming each other for the nations woes. Who is to say what this will be like between these parties in another 50 years? And what of the states that are well getting tired of the Federal goverment telling them how they will and won't run their own individual states? How long might it be when a state actually defies the feds? How will it effect the other states to see the feds go in and take over a state that is defying them? What would that state become then? What kind of a goverment? How would the other states react? I see Pratt's prophecy having a strong possibility of coming true in the future based on some small, growing riffs that are growing bigger and bigger with each passing decade. My opinion.  | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/20/2008 5:23:27 PM | For a prophecy that is 130 years old, how well do you think Pratt did in making his? Anyone with a vivid imagination and an understanding of war's destructive powers can write a religious fortune cookie. If he would have been more specific then I would have been impressed. But then again when you are specific your prophecy is easily debunked. If you don't believe me, then before you die you will live. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/20/2008 5:26:10 PM | | This "prophecy" is too vague to be of any value. There's going to be a really bad war? Thanks for not mentioning the participants, the time period, the location, or anything other than the fact that manufacturing and farming will be impacted, Mr. Pratt. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/20/2008 7:22:50 PM | "This "prophecy" is too vague to be of any value."
Prophecys are usually vague. Can you think of any prophecies made by an individual from 100 years ago or more that made a specific prophecy of a time in America's future that today everyone actually agreed was totally correct in all parts and had came to pass?
The point of this prophecy is that from the outside looking in, most aliens see the USA as a united group of people that solve problems so we do not experience inner turmoil that would lead to an actual war within itself as happens regulary to other countries. The Pratt prophecy, though vague on the era, said it would take place. He said a future would come when turmoil would build and over flow from city to city, county to county and finally state to state. The clue word he used was "mobocracy." The first definition of mobocracy is ....1. political control by a mob. It was politics, the politicians, not the people that began the last war the USA had within it's own borders. If we have another, I guess it will be because OF politics. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/20/2008 11:25:55 PM |
If you read what Pratt said, you can find his prophecy fulfilled in many other nations who have been at war within themselves, one goverment toppling another. This prophecy is literally true for a few states in Africa today though he meant it for America. Then once again we are not talking about prophecy, but rather an astute comment about what happens when any country tears itself apart through war.
It is ESPECIALLY not prophecy since he lived through the Civil War period and is perfectly familiar with the kind of thing that occurs during a civil war.
It is not a prophecy in any way shape or form, not matter how much you call it thus.
The clue word he used was "mobocracy." Nothing special when you remember that every time the mormons ran into significant trouble before leaving for the west was at the hands of mob violence.
So again, you must remember the climate of the time he wrote this. Pratt was describing something that he felt could happen in the very very near future. It was not a prophecy, even if people ever took it as such. Even if it was a prophecy, the time of its possible fulfillment is long past. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/21/2008 10:28:54 AM | So again, you must remember the climate of the time he wrote this. Pratt was describing something that he felt could happen in the very very near future. It was not a prophecy, even if people ever took it as such. Even if it was a prophecy, the time of its possible fulfillment is long past.
I would have to agree. Pratt seems to have spoken this prophecy when farming was the norm for most of the country....Yet those days are long past, and all that is left today it seems are the large corporate farmers, and a scattered few smaller farms who haven't been forced into another source of income, that pays the bills.
and like others have already said...
'There is no meat on the bone!' | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/21/2008 11:47:05 AM | Is there an actual chance here that because Pratt was a Mormon that certain people in this thread are not willing to give this prophecy (definition as follows so this is a prophecy....1 a prediction.) any credit? The time period was important regarding the prophecy as mentioned. The Mormons had been fighting with mobs and political mobcrates for a long while. They had at this time 1879 began to settle what we call Utah. They had some dealings with the US military instead of just mobs now. So it is safe to assume many Mormons believed they might actually war with the US. So now we have Pratt speaking and he makes the following prediction. What Paul said...."Even if it was a prophecy, the time of its possible fulfillment is long past."....There is no proof of that because Pratt gave no time line. One other thing no one seems to notice, the Civil war began with the states, moved into counties, then cities, then neighborhoods, etc. Pratt's prophecy begins just the opposite way denoting an unrest in local people that grows ever outward like a virus infecting more and more space and area.
Now let's slice up his prediction.....
"What then will be the condition of that people, when this great and terrible war shall come? It will be very different from the war between the North and the South. So you wish me to describe it? I will do so. It will be a war of neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, county against county, state against state,..." Note the war he describes begins from the opposite direction then the Civil war began. Also note he could not of been thinking of Mormons leading this rebellion that he said would become a war because few Mormons lived in the existing US states at that time. Most Mormons lived in the Utah Territory. So obviously he was describing an insurection leading to a war that would mostly include people who were not Mormons.
"...and they will go forth destroying and being destroyed, and manufacturing will, in a great measure, cease, for a time, among the American nation. Why? Because in these terrible wars, they will not be privileged to manufacture; there will be too much bloodshed, too much mobocracy, too much going forth in bands and destroying and pillaging the land to suffer people to pursue any local vocation with any degree of safety." In the above he well describes why manufacturing would come to a stand still.
"What will become of millions of the farmers upon that land? They will leave their farms and they will flee before the ravaging armies from place to place; and thus will they go forth burning and pillaging the whole country; and that great and powerful nation, will be wasted away, unless they repent." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 20:151, given on March 9, 1879.) When internal war happens to a country, farming has always stopped because roaming bands of milita take what they need and burn the rest so the enemy cannot produce any from the same area. We do have farmers and ranchers today. Milita groups would do as they always do and take from farmers and ranchers when in the country to feed their armies. Farmers and in past times have usually left their homes to protect their family. They can always grow more crops but they can't always protect their wife and children from milita's.
I believe that Pratt has a chance for this prediction coming true based on how the US is sliding down hill all the time with the present internal political turmoil that is growing and growing in worse proportions all the time. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/21/2008 12:02:16 PM |
Prophecys are usually vague. Can you think of any prophecies made by an individual from 100 years ago or more that made a specific prophecy of a time in America's future that today everyone actually agreed was totally correct in all parts and had came to pass?
Nope. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/21/2008 2:15:34 PM | | prophecy is being, existing the contentment of heart that you know is divine, believe is prophecy living by gods will the will of the tao the will of the I Ching only then will you truly understand your destiny, our purpose is to follow our destiny only then do will live at one at peace that is prophecy. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/21/2008 2:57:13 PM | A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
As i gaze through the crystal ball.....what was cloudy, becomes much clearer......as clear as crystal....that what may be touted as prophesy....is most likely an observation based on past experiences....not necessarily of his own.
If he had read or had knowledge of the contents of Edward Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" (published 1776) he may have made the parallel between two great nations.....at different phases of the life cycle of their megapower. His only foresight is in acknowledging that nations and civilisations don't last forever....and that eventually the United States of America will decline too, as had the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Persians etc etc.
Pratt's commentary about how it would all end is just a matter of speculation, based on how things have usually ended in the past.....
now.....if he had predicted that an African American was a clear contender for the POTUS, in 2008 then I'd be taking a little more interest  | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/21/2008 5:59:48 PM |
Okay my turn for prophecy: "In the future...there will be....a fire - rockondon, 2008"
I got a better one...."1000 years from now a meteor will strike the earth" | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/22/2008 12:24:06 AM |
Is there an actual chance here that because Pratt was a Mormon that certain people in this thread are not willing to give this prophecy (definition as follows so this is a prophecy....1 a prediction.) any credit?
No, I do not give it any credit because I am familiar with the political and emotional climate of territorial Utah at the time he spoke this.
Note the war he describes begins from the opposite direction then the Civil war began. Also note he could not of been thinking of Mormons leading this rebellion that he said would become a war because few Mormons lived in the existing US states at that time. Most Mormons lived in the Utah Territory. So obviously he was describing an insurection leading to a war that would mostly include people who were not Mormons. He does not describe it as begining from any "opposite direction" he simply says It will be a war of neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, county against county, state against state,... He is describing an all pervasive volatility, not a chain of escalation.
The rest of what you described is just a simple explanation of what happens in a country in chaos. It is not prophecy. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/22/2008 4:16:22 AM | *ignores thread to address OP*
It's easier this way. Seriously.
Elder Orson Pratt also described the anarchy that would sweep the nation: "What then will be the condition of that people, when this great and terrible war shall come? It will be very different from the war between the North and the South. Do you wish me to describe it? I will do so. It will be a war of neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, county against county, state against state, and they will go forth destroying and being destroyed, [and manufacturing will, [in a great measure,] cease, for a time, among the American nation.] Why? Because in these terrible wars, they will not be privileged to manufacture; there will be too much bloodshed, [too much mobocracy,] too much going forth in bands and destroying and pillaging the land to suffer people to pursue any local vocation with any degree of safety. [What will become of millions of the farmers upon that land? They will leave their farms] and they will flee before the ravaging armies from place to place; and thus will they go forth burning and pillaging the whole country; and that great and powerful nation, will be wasted away, unless they repent." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 20:151, given on March 9, 1879.)
Huh. A prophecy that makes vague suggestions of some sort of massive societal upheaval. That never happens! 
Show some details- names of cities, instigators, or even the months/years/decades it would take place in, and I may consider it an accurate prophecy. As it stands, it's little more than showboating, the equal of any hollywood terrorist flick or the TV show "24". Could a terrorist sneak a nuke into a football stadium? Maybe. Is the film "Sum of All Fears" a prophecy? No.
One more thing to consider of this warring within our nation he predicts, could this take place from home grown terrorists and or citizens getting tired of the goverment finally running all aspects of their lives and finally revolt?
No. A revolution cannot succeed without a military to enforce the new order, and defend or defeat the previous military order. Have you seen to stuff the US military has? Did you know that the fanciest stuff they show us civvies are over 30 years old? Do you really think a popular revolt, even the entire damn country, could possibly stand a chance against A-10 Warthogs, apaches, etc.? Of course not.
Could the citizens of this country actually end up warring with our own police and military agencies?
Impossible. Or, rather, conflict is possible. Success is not.
Leaving many of those people in the police and military agencies not wanting to go and detain and or shoot family/friends/etc.? A decision that could actually weaken the police agencies and military from controlling the possible rebellion?
Not in the least. To even have a chance, the entire civilian populace would have to be a united front. Look around- there is far more conflict than agreement, far more division than unity. It is the strength of the States as a whole that it survives such discord from itself, and indeed, this very conflict allows for differing views- which itself adds strength to the whole.
Violent, popular revolution? Not in the least. Social revolution? Political revolution? Ethical? Perhaps. But not martial. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/22/2008 12:16:42 PM | "He does not describe it as begining from any "opposite direction" he simply says It will be a war of neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, county against county, state against state,... He is describing an all pervasive volatility, not a chain of escalation." Everyone can see things from a different perspective. The point you leave out Paul is that Pratt knew what the Civil war was about and how's and who's started it. The point I made was that the way the Civil war began in the US is how most wars within a country begin. They begin from politics, sides are drawn and the war begins. Pratt knew that. But in his own future prophecy of the US he predicted another war would happen but would come from a different direction that it seldoms happens from.
What Trippy said in his post is very logical....."No. A revolution cannot succeed without a military to enforce the new order, and defend or defeat the previous military order. Have you seen to stuff the US military has? Did you know that the fanciest stuff they show us civvies are over 30 years old? Do you really think a popular revolt, even the entire damn country, could possibly stand a chance against A-10 Warthogs, apaches, etc.? Of course not.".......But Pratt was not aware of our day and what the US military would one day become. He made a statement from a vision/dream/ fanciful thinking of how (what we think an impossibility) the next war within the US would transpire. The obvious hurdal would be the US military branches. But as it happened before, what if some political agenda of tomarrow's disagreeing camps ended up dividing the loyalties of those branches so certain generals of the different branches were partial to certain politicians and pulled the soldiers partial to those generals with them to those politicians and their political camps? It did happen before preceeding and during the begining of the Civil war. Politicians disagreed, generals and their loyal soldiers went with their favored politicians and the political camps quickly became divided by colors, the grey and the blue. If you look at what is happening now in the US politically, the small things that are tearing us apart little by little because we have politicians that would rather disagree then to agree on so many matters, the two camps are more distinct now then ever before of the democrats and republicans. There is a real possibility that our present politicians are setting something up to happen in the future to this country. Pratt witnessed it done in his time and for some reason of his own thinking, he saw them doing it again at a future time. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/22/2008 3:07:24 PM |
The point you leave out Paul is that Pratt knew what the Civil war was about and how's and who's started it. The point I made was that the way the Civil war began in the US is how most wars within a country begin. They begin from politics, sides are drawn and the war begins. Pratt knew that. But in his own future prophecy of the US he predicted another war would happen but would come from a different direction that it seldoms happens from. No, I addressed that point. Pratt did no such thing.
Politicians disagreed, generals and their loyal soldiers went with their favored politicians and the political camps quickly became divided by colors, the grey and the blue. They did not go with "their favoured politicians." Generals and soldiers for the most part stayed loyal to their state. The US civil war was all about the death of a union of sovereign states and the rise of the single federal state we know today. from are to is.
The bickering between two parties that we have today is little different from how it has always been. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/22/2008 8:05:19 PM |
The prophecy is so freaking vague it's meaningless. This is probably the most succinct statement made in the thread. I even read the "prophecy" again to try as best i could to see it in the best possible light, and there's nothing there other than a general statement about a coming general malaise. I also really enjoyed paulthesane's comments -- very helpful historical background info.
You asked about bias, so I hope you don't mind me asking: Is the fact that he's a Mormon causing you to see his "prophecy" as more true and faithful than it really is, to see more there than is reasonable? You don't have to answer -- the answer is more for yourself than for me. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/22/2008 11:05:04 PM | "The prophecy is so freaking vague it's meaningless."
Prophecies/predictions have always been vague when it deals with an obvious unknown time period because one was not mentioned.
What is funny for me are seeing who the true skeptics are that this prophecy Pratt made is bringing out of the closet. Not a single person so far has been able to think of anything that has been happening in the last 60 years that might be remotely linked to a possible FUTURE out come as Pratt described it. Most in this thread seem to have a limited amount of thinking capacity that allows them to only attack what Pratt said as vague and meaningless. I am supposing that the true skeptics here really do not even wish to consider that we in our era in the US could be the possible reason that our present politics could cause future inner turmoil that could possibly bring the US to it's knees.
Of your question Romanticoptimist, if Pratt had been an atheist wouldn't of meant anything to me. What I like of this prophecy is that 1. it was a prophecy(no matter how vague of a time period)dealing with America and how Pratt saw it happening over 100 years ago. I know of no other religious or non-religious type person who lived 0ver 100 years ago who took time to make a prophecy/prediction of a future time of America and it's second civil war. I say civil because our present military can keep anyone from entering like we did with VietNam or Iraq...etc. So if a second war did begin at America's borders, that would be contrary to Pratts war prophecy because he stated the next war would begin within cities and spread outwards. And for those who obviously are not thinking about it, we have minor skirmishes already happening in various larger cities right now in America that is involving neighborhoods at present. It is called "Gang terf wars." It is a real thing and as America grows in population, so do these gangs regardless of the laws passed to put them in jail. The media/politicians have already color coded the states remember? We have states that are seen as liberal or conservative or a mixture of both. We have to political groups that have drawn lines and have dug in deep against each other, blaming each other for our past and present problems but are not solving anything. Gas/food/energy is sky high and all they can do is play the blame game. We have another really strong group that actually pits the two main political groups against each other. They are called enviormentalists.
But, to all the true skeptics here, none of the above can be connected in any fashion or way to any parts of a 130 year old prophecy/prediction and what could end up happening in the future due to our present political war that is taking place. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/22/2008 11:57:33 PM |
Prophecies/predictions have always been vague when it deals with an obvious unknown time period because one was not mentioned.
Yes and that is why prophecies in general are meaningless. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think? Posted: 6/23/2008 12:39:50 AM |
Not a single person so far has been able to think of anything that has been happening in the last 60 years that might be remotely linked to a possible FUTURE out come as Pratt described it.
That is because the only person intent on making this out to BE a prophecy is you. The historical background to the statement negates its validity as a prophecy.
Most in this thread seem to have a limited amount of thinking capacity that allows them to only attack what Pratt said as vague and meaningless. Resorting to an ad hominem just shows that you have lost this argument if all you can do is question the thinking capacity of everyone when they do not agree with your reading.
I am supposing that the true skeptics here really do not even wish to consider that we in our era in the US could be the possible reason that our present politics could cause future inner turmoil that could possibly bring the US to it's knees. And I am supposing that all your guesswork is nothing more than that, guesswork.
What I like of this prophecy is that 1. it was a prophecy(no matter how vague of a time period)dealing with America and how Pratt saw it happening over 100 years ago. I know of no other religious or non-religious type person who lived 0ver 100 years ago who took time to make a prophecy/prediction of a future time of America and it's second civil war. And what the rest of us are saying is that it is NOT a prophecy. And if you can find no other prophecies about a 'second civil war' from over the past 100 years, then you are not looking hard enough.
So if a second war did begin at America's borders, that would be contrary to Pratts war prophecy because he stated the next war would begin within cities and spread outwards. No. No he didn't. No matter how much you say he did, Pratt did not say that at all. If you can't even understand what Pratt actually said, then this discussion is over.
It is called "Gang terf wars." It is a real thing and as America grows in population, so do these gangs regardless of the laws passed to put them in jail. Wait, you think turf wars between gangs are new?
The media/politicians have already color coded the states remember? Meaningless.
But, to all the true skeptics here, none of the above can be connected in any fashion or way to any parts of a 130 year old prophecy/prediction and what could end up happening in the future due to our present political war that is taking place. Two can play this game! =) But to all the Montanans out there, non of the above can be accepted because they want so much for this to be a prophecy in order to add legitimacy to a faith that they claim not to be a part of yet with every breath scream otherwise. | |
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