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| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 6/29/2008 5:24:53 PM | Many of us...., (regardless of gender) suffer from some form/degree of depression from time to time.
It has always been my feeling/belief that women seem better emotionally equipped to deal with this.
Females deal with this (depression).., rather more quickly and effectively than males.
It is my beleif..., that this is largely because they are more unconditionally supportive...., ......'the sisterhood' ?
But it's not really a newsflash. From what I have heard on my beloved 'radio national' it has been known a while.
So, reading in the forums here...., I contiually see examples of women springing to the 'emotional rescue/defence' of each other....., 'unconditionally' ....., as a first responce.
In the forums and out there in 'so called reality'...., I do not see the same connection, support and brotherhood between males....,
IF..., I see it in other males..., it's usually 'conditional'..., as in there is a pre-existing relationship or connection.
And ironically males always call each other "mate"...., especially when they are in a beligerant frame of mind and smacking each other around. Go figure!
I understand things seem to be changing (slowly)....,
and males are becomming more 'emotionally intelligent' (the highest form).
I wish males could be more supportive of each other...., and of females too (unconditionally)....,
....., instead of attack and condemnation as a first reaction. It's really nice to see it...., when it occurs here on the forums
and elsewhere.
I have no real questions for fellow POF forum posters....,
....., just a general what are your thoughts on this situation.
Sorry it a bit of a rambleing generalisation/observation.
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| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 6/29/2008 5:39:51 PM | Im not sure about it sandy freckle.
I have never understood the way the male mind works!
Its a complete mystery to me and probably always will be.
But yeah gal pals tend to look out for each other both on here and in the real world. Real friends come along so rarely that when someone gives them a hard time my first response is to give as good as you get.
I think many people have the 'Muck with my family or my friends and I will come and bite you in the ass' way of thinking......or maybe its just me!! | |
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| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 6/29/2008 5:53:28 PM | I probably fit somewhere into the average Australian male category, and I can honestly say that it's not always easy to bolster your friends spirits without it feeling like your p!ssing in their pockets (so to speak).
Through my work I speak to people anonymously, and you would be surprised how many just need validation that they are still worthwhile. At a guess i would say the ratio of people seeking assistance would be 2/1 in favour of women, but the wheels are slowly turning and men are allowing themselves the opportunity to ask for help. | |
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| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 6/29/2008 7:10:29 PM | I recently took part in a suicide prevention workshop. It was an initiative to educate and build resilience in wheatbelt communities. Resilience is the ability to bounce back and weather down times and we build it through experience. Making it through one bad patch gives confidence that you can make it through another one.
One of the issues that was raised was how to recognise when people are hurting and how hard it can be for people to ask for help. Or even acknowledge that they might need it. We all grow up being told that grown ups dont cry.
Sometimes just being available to talk is useful. Just coming alongside and acknowledging that things are tough can be helpful. Men can do it as well as women. Not being a man (!) I dont know whether they actually do.
In a way, I think the forums help people feel connected. Vent, maybe? A bit of tolerance and acceptance can help us all through. | |
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Naamah
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Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 5 | |
| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 6/29/2008 10:18:41 PM |
IF..., I see it in other males..., it's usually 'conditional'..., as in there is a pre-existing relationship or connection.
Sandy I noticed you said this ^^^, but I see in the responses people are talking about females supporting their friends, which would also be a pre-existing relationship...so I just wanted to seek clarification. Were you talking about males not forming the same types of close friendships in the first place? Or were you talking about females being more inclined to support other females who are completely unknown to them? Just wanted to check before I commented. | |
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| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 6/29/2008 11:39:58 PM | In my opinion some men have been bought up to be tough,not cry and be able to handle anything .Old school I suppose you'd call it .
Some men see talking about thier feelings as weak and others don't know how to handle open and honest talk about feeling .
I hope things are changing ,I am certainly teaching my son to talk about how he feels . | |
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| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 6/30/2008 1:09:12 AM | Hi Naamah...., mainly talking about males not forming the same types of close relationships..., it seems to me that 'male to male' close relationships (I only know about hetro by the way as in "mates") are more conditional than female to female.
But the second supposition you mentioned is also very interesting...., as in females seem to be more inclined to support other females who are completely unknown to them ...., my experience is that males are less inclined to give support to a male unknown to them.
So yes to both of those....,
Also curiousaboutu77..., yes, males do like to fix things I certainly agree..., but I beleive the irony there is..., males really cant 'fix' anything without support and of course a willingness to communicate with that support...., as in 'no man is an island'....,
although some seem to think they are archipeligo's......, or even beaches...., or even a Caves Beach, love ya work mate.
I dont really agree with what Caves said ladies!
But I digress....., I am interested in 'unpacking' this question of limited and conditional male to male support a little is all....,
as in hearing others viewpoints...., and the way that there is a kind of sisterhood already in place.....,
as a result of what I dare not say. | |
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| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 6/30/2008 2:23:42 AM | I find (in general, of course it's not 100%) women feel reassured from talking about problems where as men prefer to act upon the problem or be shown a solution. As it has been said before, "Men are visual, women are imagination".
I'm a true believer in the men are from mars women from Venus points of view. Now where's my cave so I can go think. My mates support me, when I'm down is when I find out who is really my mate and who is only there for the good times. | |
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| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 6/30/2008 2:57:22 AM | Sandy Freckle,
I do believe as a female we are more "conditioned" to share problems. I think this is why there is a higher suicide rate in men. If I ring one of my girlfriend's in tears, she'll come straight over. I think if a guy called his mate crying, his friend would probably freak out and have no idea what to do. I don't believe his friend is shallow. It's just our upbringing. "Men don't cry." I hate that.
I believe there is a lot of social pressure put on men, especially in long term realtionships. If you have children, the girl will stay at home with the child. (Generalising.)
My example is my brother. He's fine. I can't imagine the pressure though. Him and his wife had a baby nine months ago. My beautiful sister-in-law is now a stay home Mum. $40kg a year gone. My brother has gone from night shift to day to spend time with his family. (Quiet willingly.) $12kg gone. Mortgage, beautiful new child. After 12 years together and bigger committments they earn 52kg a year less. What stress. As the man though, by society he is the "breadwinner."
I do think because men of our generation are raised to "be men"(ie: not talk and share their feelings) they suffer. That makes me sad. | |
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| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 6/30/2008 3:19:23 AM | When i'm down,its usually me who helps me.There's a little quote i say to myself,"ask not what some one can do for you but what you can do for some one else".Guess i'm a bit of a loner,don't like to bother other people with my problems,so i've learnt to deal with them myself.My dad was my best mate(one of them),so when he passed away all them years ago,i missed not being able to chat with him about stuff.
Agree with you Sandy(here i go again),women seem to be more supportive of each other and to a lesser extent men when they hear something emotional has happened to them.Seen on another tread a male had a emotional event happen to them and it was the women who expressed supportive comments,us men seemed to let it slide(me included) and not express anything supportive.Why,maybe,the big boys don't cry syndrome,none of my business,they'll deal with it,just deal with it and many others.No answers but hopefully like you said,things will change. | |
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| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 6/30/2008 3:35:41 AM | Looking at global forums here on POF I see a lot of males who actually do help and are very supportive. Not sure if it's an Aussie male thing to be a little shy in getting involved in expressing emotions or just my imaginations.
But generally speaking Maybe traditionally males were suppose to hold their sorrows in so to show their masculinity and to display physical and emotional strength. Also when girls where allowed to cry, boys where girls to cry and so through times we learnt girls can show sorrow and emotions but males shouldn’t. Therefore it was common to support females openly but not males.. maybe by giving males emotional support meant taking them away from their manhood. We have come a long way but still not long enough to have it done so openly.
Sometimes it's even hard for women to show their emotions, to some extend it's okay I suppose but if more than certain limit then she gets called drama queen or needy. | |
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| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 6/30/2008 3:56:41 AM | This I think summarises things perfectly.....
I do believe as a female we are more "conditioned" to share problems. I think this is why there is a higher suicide rate in men. If I ring one of my girlfriend's in tears, she'll come straight over. I think if a guy called his mate crying, his friend would probably freak out and have no idea what to do. I don't believe his friend is shallow. It's just our upbringing. "Men don't cry." I hate that.
I think this is true because men were traditionally the providers and protectors of their clan during pre-historic times. Think about it from a logical point: Let's say the men of one tribe are fighting against the men of another tribe and they suddenly start sobbing because they are losing the battle. What is likely to happen? The opposing side would see that as a weakness and they would get an instant boost in their morale. Thereby making it easier for them to defeat them. Women, on the other hand, weren't involved in hand-to-hand combat. So they had less to lose by showing their emotions.
Yes, the world has come a long way since those days, but some characteristics are not lost with time, unless there's a compelling reason (for example, the need to survive) to change.
Just for the record, if a male friend of mine was to call me even at 3am and was sobbing uncontrollably then I can assure you that I would do all I could to see him in person and try to comfort him. Does doing this make me something other than a man? Quite frankly, I wouldn't care. | |
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| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 6/30/2008 4:16:06 AM | I have a tendancy to look at the situation in a similar fashion to Bucky.....i got myself into this, i'll get myself out of it.
Another way to look at the subject ( from a male perspective) is........unfortunatley in the real world ( but not always) " the weak will become the hunted"......perhaps we tend to use this as a self defence mechinisim.......just to be on the safe side. | |
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Naamah
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Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 17 | |
| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 6/30/2008 4:59:42 AM |
Hi Naamah...., mainly talking about males not forming the same types of close relationships..., it seems to me that 'male to male' close relationships (I only know about hetro by the way as in "mates") are more conditional than female to female.
Ok well on that side of things, I was thinking about the relationship my husband had with his best friend.
The pair of them had been friends since primary school, and were always in each others lives. When he described the friendship, it was with pride at their closeness and he told me that they were very open with each other as far as talking about things…but I remember having my doubts early on.
At one point Damien wanted to mull over a few thoughts with his mate about some stuff at work. He’d just been promoted and was feeling a bit out of his depth and trying to get a handle on his new managerial role. It mattered to him and he was quite serious about wanting to discuss it…and he wanted a male perspective. So he organised to catch up with said best mate for some supportive advice. He came home some 9 hours later drunk and stoned.  The next day I asked if they’d talked, and he said the sum of his mate's response was "The only tip I’ve got for ya…don't sh@g the staff. Wanna beer?".
I was really disappointed for him that it got dismissed so lightly. After that, my thoughts were that his mate really wasn't much support. But truthfully, stuff like that is often only the tip of the iceberg of a male friendship.
His best mate was living in Ireland when my husband was diagnosed with cancer. I called him...and he got straight on a plane (left his job, his flat, and his girlfriend) and came here straight from the airport. Over the next 12 months he was always on hand. He went to almost every chemo/radiation appointment. He ran errands and did chores. He stayed here 4 days a week. He sat under the house and played guitar with my husband, he set up a pingpong table for them to play seeing as my husband couldn't play other sport anymore, and he helped my husband fence/construct/plant a vegetable garden...doing all the manual labour my husband could no longer do. In doing all these things, he enabled my husband to achieve things and feel like a "bloke", rather than an invalid.
So OK, that’s more the ‘doing’ thing than the ‘talking’ thing, but yeah, they talked, a lot. He cried with him, laughed with him, endured the angry stage without batting an eyelid. He didn't run away when the going got tough...unlike some of Damien’s other male friends who couldn’t handle the intensity of the situation.
As a comparison. When my husband lost the ability to stand up on his own, he needed to be lifted out of chairs. One day, my husband's brother and wife were visiting, and when I went to help my husband up my sister-in-law prompted Damien’s brother to lift him, to give my back a rest. His brother sort of put his hands under Damien's armpits and lifted him whilst keeping their two torsos apart. It looked sort of awkward and mechanical. In contrast, whenever his best mate did the same thing, he would lean right in, wrap his arms around my husband's torso, and hug him into a standing position. Then he would stand there, holding his frail friend to him, and wait for him to stabilise before helping him to where he wanted to go. The warmth, openness, and love in the way he played his part in caring for him, was pure and beautiful, and never covered with an awkward blokey deflection. He was here to the end.
It never failed to move me to see this man love my husband so much. I have never in my life seen such a beautiful friendship in action. It honestly awed me. And when Damien was gone, he both cried with me like a girl, and got p1ssed with me like a bloke. He also got my husband’s full name, date of birth and date of death, tattooed the full length of his forearm.
He stayed here at first, because he couldn’t bear to leave where he’d last seen Damien. He and I talked over the days and nights he was here, and I was stunned at the depth of the detail he knew about things. They did indeed talk to each other about feelings, and fears, and hopes…and support each other in more than a back-slapping way.
So yes, I think males can have deep friendships. | |
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| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 6/30/2008 5:31:56 AM | 'they can and I think they are getting better.
my son has a great mate and they laugh and they laugh.........they also want a stress free life (i cant break the news to them yet). but no matter what (even when he has a girly in his life who my son doesn't like) they are there for each other and do boy stuff together, just the 2 of them. and i know jack talks to lachie lots about things - things I can't help him deal with or understand. I know they talk on the phone for hours.
and they play jokes on each other, and they laugh and lean on each other. I think it is something boys today aren't afraid of now, they can be themselves and they can show their "feminine" side without fear or ridicule or rejection. about time too........! | |
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| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 6/30/2008 6:55:40 AM | I don't think it's just a matter of men wanting to solve their problems themselves without any help. The "Big boys don't cry" syndrome affects a lot of women as well.
I've had plenty of friends (both male and female) that I've sought comfort from in difficult times, only to later on have them tease or ridicule me for having and displaying those emotions.
That may be an age thing, however. (Gosh, don't we have any other teenager posters in the Aussie forum?) | |
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| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 6/30/2008 5:13:04 PM | Jeeze naamah..., Your recollection had me in tears. Literally
Especially as I read farther down..., I realised your late husbands relationship with his best mate had so many similarities to the connection between my best mate and myself...., although he ended his own life a few years ago.
He had had enough, and chose his own method of leaving this life.
Peter or Dali was actually a Buddhist monk for many years...., athough he had discontiued wearing the robes before his choosing to pass on.
He had M.S. for many years and was severely disabled by the end of his time.
I was one of his carers for 3 years, and miss him dearly as many others do.
It was very hard for me imediately after Peters passing as a close member of his family denied me access to the various funeral and rememberance occasions...., although I was on very good terms with the entire rest of the family.
I miss my mates wisdom, patience and compassion...., catch you later Pete. | |
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| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 6/30/2008 5:24:26 PM | This is a poem that was sent to me from a female friend - think it kind of sums up the male/female way of dealing with things? But I do believe men are getting better at dealing with their emotions and shaking off that "Big boys don't dry" theory.
Myself I couldn't get by without my really good girlfriends, the ones you can trust with you life. Having said that I find women are so much easier to open up to strangers even, I often talk to women I have just met and within an hour we have exchanged life stories and walk away better for it. My daughter says I have a habit of talking to 'random strangers', I always think you never know what pain might be behind that scowly face?
Women gather
Free to chat of impotent husbands
And not quite forgotton lovers,
Sharing dreams with old or new friends
And confiding depression,
Baring souls and unburdening hearts,
The leave relaxed and laughing,
Promising to lunch again soon,
Freed from the pain of no one knowing.
Men gather
Free to boast of the money they've made
Or will make soon - or the women,
Displaying how strong and controlled they are
And unafraid of competition
Sharing trumphs and hiding themselves,
Then leave with a handshake and "See you around",
Bleeding silently within themselves,
Bearing the pain of no one knowing. | |
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Hagars
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Msg: 22 | |
| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 6/30/2008 10:35:03 PM | But generally speaking Maybe traditionally males were suppose to hold their sorrows in so to show their masculinity and to display physical and emotional strength. Also when girls where allowed to cry, boys where girls to cry and so through times we learnt girls can show sorrow and emotions but males shouldn’t. Therefore it was common to support females openly but not males.. maybe by giving males emotional support meant taking them away from their manhood. We have come a long way but still not long enough to have it done so openly.
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While reading this thread my minds going over how to word my opinion, goddess's post is exactly what i would try to put across. For centuries there's been a stereotype of what males are suppose to be like and females.
It is so so wrong IMO, it is one small frame of the picture that once portrayed women as lesser beings than men and why men once held all positions of importance and voting rights and such.
WE all the same except we have different roles in reproduction, equal but different. As humans we all have the same feelings, same nervous system same stress's, what is different is upbringing and culture. We are told there is differences, taught and brought up with a big barrier between who and what we are about whatever gender we are.
Men frowned upon in society/family/community for crying, being emotionally verbal or sensitive, women for being strong, aggressive, tough, stubborn and independent.
On the op's opinion men are more susceptible to depression!!!!!!! That was not my experience in the health industry. Other way around taking into count post natal depression, which is quite rife. | |
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| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 7/1/2008 3:27:46 AM | Oh my god Sandy! What are you doing starting a thread about feelings... you'll be banished from the brotherhood for sure
Great post Namaah but shit, like Sandy, I was in tears by the end of it too…well not really... I wasn’t cryingsniff I just urrmm got something in my eye[I] sniff[/I]…it’s gone now though.
You’re right with your iceberg analogy there’s often a whole lot more going on than there appears to be on the surface.
Like your husband I have a great friend that I’ve known since I was 8 years old…we can often go months or even years with out catching up, but in times of trouble it’s always a great comfort to know he’s there, even if at these times I don’t always seek him out…lot easier to walk the tight rope when you know there’s a safety net under ya.
It is a wonderful thing to have a friend that knows almost every intimate detail about my life. This is the guy I built cubby houses in the back yard with, the kid I ran away from home with when I was 13, drank and smoked pot with for the first time. He knows how to make me laugh and what makes me cry.
I think having this sort of history together allows us to instantly connect, even if we haven't seen each other for years. We can talk about anything whether it's having a moan about our partners (or lack there of) or a more deep conversation about a death in the family and how it's affecting us.
As for supporting males that are completely unknown, I try to, although it takes a huge conscious effort to do it, I think the years of conditioning in my upbringing is what makes it difficult. It’s a shame that it doesn’t come more naturally as it seems to for women.
I see that my sons are becoming a bit better at it than me, which fills me with pride and a sense of achievement. I think if each generation can get just a little bit better at it then we’re heading in the right direction.
I think if dads can only teach their boys one thing, it should be how to hug properly…without always having to do the blokey back slapping thing. | |
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| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 7/1/2008 3:30:27 AM |
So, reading in the forums here...., I contiually see examples of women springing to the 'emotional rescue/defence' of each other....., 'unconditionally' ....., as a first responce.
By the same token I’ve also seen, both here and in the real world, women jumping to attack another woman they don’t know if they see them doing something wrong, particularly if it involves cheating with another woman’s partner. Often in these situations they will blame the woman rather than the man…perhaps the code of the sisterhood is more sacred than the code of marriage…not judging either way just an observation. | |
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| When you are down, hopefully it's your friends who will help you. But....,
Posted: 7/1/2008 5:16:02 AM | Sorry I just read this whole thread...blown away by the beautiful stories that everyone has shared....especially Naamah - yep that thing in Julianx's eye just blew into mine.......nothing that I can add to this thread, except to say, that Im having a bit of a rough trot at the moment and the support I have received from my friends both online - especially from the forums who Ive never met and "real world" has been totally amazing, especially as I have been rather woeful.....thankyou for sharing and being in my world and adding some color to it... how lucky are we to have our friends of either sex.....god where would we be without them, our true friends.... | |
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