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 Author Thread: Good idea or abuse of power?
 Guy Named Ray

Joined: 2/19/2008
Msg: 1
Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/2/2008 5:36:50 PM
Terror watch uses local eyes
By Bruce Finley The Denver Post
http://www.denverpost.com/commented/ci_9732641?source=commented-news
Article Last Updated: 06/29/2008 0942 AM MDT

Hundreds of police, firefighters, paramedics and even utility workers have been trained and recently dispatched as "Terrorism Liaison Officers" in Colorado and a handful of other states to hunt for "suspicious activity" — and are reporting their findings into secret government databases.

"Suspicious activity" is broadly defined in TLO training as behavior that could lead to terrorism: taking photos of no apparent aesthetic value, making measurements or notes, espousing extremist beliefs or conversing in code, according to a draft Department of Justice/Major Cities Chiefs Association document.

Here are examples of specific behaviors that terrorism liaison officers deployed in Colorado and a handful of other states are told to watch for and report.

• Engages in suspected pre-operational surveillance (uses binoculars or cameras, takes measurements, draws diagrams, etc.)

• Appears to engage in counter-surveillance efforts (doubles back, changes appearance, drives evasively, etc.)

• Engages security personnel in questions focusing on sensitive subjects (security information, hours of operation, shift changes, what security cameras film, etc.)

• Takes pictures or video footage (with no apparent aesthetic value, for example, camera angles, security equipment, security personnel, traffic lights, building entrances, etc.)

• Draws diagrams or takes notes (building plans, location of security cameras or security personnel, security shift changes, notes of weak security points, etc.)

• Abandons a vehicle (in a secured or restricted location, such as the front of a government building, airport, sports venue, etc.)

• Makes or attempts to make suspicious purchases, such as large amounts of otherwise legal materials (for example, pool chemicals, fuel, fertilizer, potential explosive-device components, etc.)

• Acquires or attempts to acquire uniforms without a legitimate cause (service personnel, government uniforms, etc.)

• Acquires or attempts to acquire an official or official-appearing vehicle without a legitimate cause (such as an emergency or government vehicle, etc.)

Good idea or abuse of power?
 sanderick

Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 2
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Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/2/2008 6:06:56 PM
Looks like an expanded version of the local "Neighborhood Watch" programs.

These programs are all over the United States.

http://www.usaonwatch.org/

These programs work. People protecting their homes and neighborhoods.

It is a good idea. I would suspect those that think it would be an abuse of some sort of power, would be someone inclined to actually conduct some type of illegal behavior and wouldn't want something like this to deter them.

Just IMOP

 whiskeypapa

Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 3
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Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/2/2008 6:27:43 PM
sounds more like the Ministry of Truth is keeping you worked up about Euroasia.
 Mr. Mxyzptlk

Joined: 10/12/2005
Msg: 4
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Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/2/2008 7:15:24 PM
Do you really have to ask? In the USA since September 2001, there is nothing that has been done in the name of "counter-terrorism" or of "national security" that is not an abuse of power.

If the aim of the September 11th terrorists group was to destroy the liberty and freedom of American society, they have succeeded, and they have had the whole-hearted and enthusiastic co-operation of the Bush administration in achieving their goal.
 TheStefano

Joined: 6/15/2008
Msg: 5
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Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/2/2008 7:27:54 PM
As long as they dont get too carried away with it, fine with me. I dont want someone tapping my phone or peeking in the my bathroom.

And maybe they will actually protect some places we are vulnerable? like more than 10% of the ships?

Id rather this stuff than the magical thinking of fighting them over there, etc. Defense is fine, offense isnt.
 h0ldfast

Joined: 12/19/2006
Msg: 6
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Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:03:10 AM
It's a great idea. All citizens should report behaviour that they feel is suspicious. If everyone did so, it would reduce not only the risks of terrorism, but also crime in general.
 Nightwing66

Joined: 8/1/2006
Msg: 7
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Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:20:27 AM
"Hello?.........Yes, I'd like to report some guy in a funny hat standing on a rock. He looks very suspicious, please send a SWAT team over ASAP."
 GOD.IS.A.BULLET

Joined: 6/4/2008
Msg: 8
Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:28:33 AM
You understand the problem with this is that any yahoo can become the morality police and judging by how dumb most people are it seems a bit scary to me to think that just anyone can be placed into authority positions. What's the test for these people to qualify them ? Actually what was the test for the people that currently run this country ? I can see it now , Future lynch mobs like back in the old days hunting down little old miss jenkins for watering her lawn too much.

People have to stop listening to all this terrorist fear mongering bullshit before the US becomes an all consuming state of paranoia.
 crushkerry23

Joined: 6/6/2007
Msg: 9
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Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:31:07 AM
I have always felt that people complaining about cameras in public places were making a big deal out of nothing. Afterall, if you’ve got nothing to hide, who really cares.
I would say I still believe that, but it is the people that use such protective and security means to dishonest and unfair and unwarranted ends is the frightening part of it all.
I am not one to jump onto any panic band wagon but you can never be sure what is happening behind the scenes.
It is absolutely terrifying to think of what this world is coming to, and to how it might end.
 texerotic2

Joined: 12/9/2006
Msg: 10
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Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:39:25 AM
It is a good idea, but it is *also* an "abuse of power." But, with the society the way it is,
what else can we do? The vast majority of Americans want the "government" to provide
them with everything they should be providing for themselves. Security is just another
one of these things that the average person should be taking a personal role in. One
poster accurately pointed out that this is just a different form of "Neighborhood Watch."
That is correct. The problem is that not enough neighborhoods, nor its citizens, have
the courage to do the "watching" - they don't want to become involved, or they think it
"is someone else's job."
 Guy Named Ray

Joined: 2/19/2008
Msg: 11
Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/3/2008 5:20:22 PM
Afterall, if you’ve got nothing to hide, who really cares.

If you've got nothing to hide why not sign a loyalty oath and give the government carte blanche over you and your family?
When fascism comes to America, it will be because the majority didn't care.
 verygreeneyez

Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 12
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Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/3/2008 5:54:30 PM

When fascism comes to America, it will be because the majority didn't care.

Yep. Sadly, apathetic folks will be the ones suddenly wondering "What happened????" PFT.
 sanderick

Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 13
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Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/3/2008 6:45:36 PM
It's funny how some people call this an abuse of power.

People can already do this, and have been able to for a very long time. This is just organizing them and setting ground rules. This way, you don't have some nut job, calling the cops, because someone is standing on a rock with a funny hat.

Since people can do this and have been. Wouldn't it be better to educate them as to what to look for?

Knowledge is strength, and there is strength in numbers.

I think that the abuse would be people Not educated in what to look for making bogus calls. If they are organized, you can single out the "cry wolf" folks and mitigate their impact.

It's called Neighborhood Watch, but on a National scale.

Nothing wrong with that.

 Buffalonian

Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 14
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Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:00:52 PM
Citizen spies.
What an original idea! Too bad George Orwell came up with the idea before -- in "1984"! (Hint: The "Big Brother" in that book with a theme of government lies and erosion of civil liberties is not the same "Big Brother " as the one "Big Brother and the Holding Company," i.e., the band associated with Janis Joplin.
 Last not Least

Joined: 10/27/2007
Msg: 15
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Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:08:06 PM
Orwell will eventually be found to only been wrong as to the timing of totalitarian state. But what is a couple of decades when you are talking about slavery?
 a bit nomadic

Joined: 6/14/2006
Msg: 16
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Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/3/2008 11:12:02 PM
"Terrorism Liaison Officer" sounds like the guy you call if you want to have tea with Osama bin Laden.
 Green Sangha

Joined: 3/12/2008
Msg: 17
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Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 7:07:33 AM
Benjamin Franklin got it right: "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both". I am not opposed to reasonable safety precautions, but in this case the devil is in the details. According to the guidelines if I am sitting on a bench near and areas that has security concerns and I am writing in my journal I become a suspect. If I am on vacation and that particular building has great landscaping and I a want to take a picture of a friend I am a suspect. If I ask the security guard what time they close I am a suspect.

If I am innocent then I have nothing to fear is the response many of you will give. Well, what if I am someone who goes to peace rallies and I am already in a database as the government has deemed peace activists a danger? Add to that my siting at an important building doing "suspicious" activities. Perhaps all it leads to is questioning but perhaps my name ends up on the no-fly list.

It is a slippery slope we walk.
 Last not Least

Joined: 10/27/2007
Msg: 18
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Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 7:31:30 AM
The devil may be in the details but it is the very lack of details that should cause the most alarm.
Witness the phrase "broadly defined" as to what constitutes suspicious activity. With such a nebulous definition, you are practically begging for abuse of the law. Even sitting in a parkette near some buildings reading a book on your lunchbreak could technically be considered suspicious. By the definiton of the law, you could be "casing the place out".

This is looking a lot like a wakeup call for everyone..........
 Romantic Heretic

Joined: 10/24/2007
Msg: 19
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Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 7:32:41 AM
Who watches the watchmen?
 OneBlend

Joined: 3/31/2007
Msg: 20
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Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 10:30:39 AM
Oh hell yes! A great idea.
Lets even stir up shit for that neighbor we don't like because his dog pisses on our lawn. Maybe we can jeer and sing, "whatcha gonna do when they come for you, bad boy?" Maybe we can have him stoned to death in a public courtyard. Afterall, it's his word against ours. Everybody likes a snitch.


By Berit Kjos
http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2002/spy.html

Perhaps our government assumes that people are too afraid of terrorism -- or too oblivious to the recent history of totalitarian oppression -- to see the threats behind this program. But ignorance is never bliss to those who have faced the tyranny of Nazism, the cruelties of Soviet socialism or the betrayal of civilian spies who masquerade as trusted neighbors.

The last of those practices is being revived in China as well as in America. In an article titled "China's Neighborly Snoops Reinvent Themselves," Eric Eckholm wrote,

“The old ‘neighborhood committees’ that watched over every household are among the more obnoxious memories of the early decades of Communist rule. Staffed… by one’s nosiest neighbors, the committees were empowered to scrutinize every visitor, report every antisocial activity and even monitor pregnancies….

"With the decline of Marxist fervor… the committees waned…. Now, with experiments in Shenyang and 19 other cities, the government is trying to reinvent this venerable institution."[4]

I barely remember the last year of World War II. Hitler's forces had occupied Norway, and my father faced torture and probable death in a Nazi concentration camp for his part in the Norwegian resistance movement. My grandparents' homes had been confiscated by Nazi officials and their sympathizers who had succumbed to the politically correct dogma and heady promises of power and prosperity.

Neighbors were afraid to trust each other. A chilling message on a plaque in the "Nazi Propaganda" section of the Holocaust Museum (Washington DC) explains why:

"The Gestapo gathered much of its information from private citizens. Even children were taught to report on their parents. The Gestapo's main sources, however, were Nazi party officials who constantly monitored the activities of all citizens [and] used such information to track political opponents."

Could this be happening in America? Strange as it seems, it could. And with today's sophisticated information and surveillance technology, no one would be free from the prying eyes of an intrusive government and its willing servants. Consider these reasons:

1. The blueprint for social control and loss of freedom was drawn decades ago. In 1934, former NEA Executive Secretary Willard Givens warned that "...all of us, including the 'owners', must be subjected to a large degree of social control... the major function of the school is the social orientation of the individual. It must seek to give him understanding of the transition to a new social order." [see Chronology] The leader of the powerful National Education Association would have been pleased with our "progress."

Two years earlier, Aldous Huxley's Brave New World had shed some light on the change process. The masses would have to be so addicted to pleasure and so dulled by trivial pursuits that few would resist the envisioned transformation.[5] Like the proverbial frog, the masses would barely notice the rising heat.

2. School children are trained to tattle on each other. While the 9-11 crisis conveniently prepared the adult masses to accept oppressive controls, the promotion of community spies had already begun to change the minds of our children. Bolstered by the school shootings of recent years, our government put increasing pressure on students, as well as staff, to report all activities that fit a new list of politically incorrect behaviors and attitudes.

To the dismay of agencies that sought more control, many children resisted telling on their friends. "It's the same story over and over," said June Arnette, associate director of the National Schools Safety Center (NSSC), "They don't want to be a snitch."[6]

Even so, the NSSC's guidelines call for tattling on friends and relatives as well as strangers. Its "40 promising strategies" includes social tactics that match UN strategies for conforming "the mental health of the population"[7] to global standards. For example, tactic No. 6 prompts educators to "Encourage students to report any suspicious individuals on school grounds. Provide students and staff with a toll-free, anonymous hotline."[8]

3. The neighborhood spies extends a pattern already tested in schools. When students use those anonymous "hot-lines" to report on classmates, they are not asked to prove their suspicions nor back accusations with witnesses. While most of the student informers probably tell the truth, others could feed slanderous reports into the government's life-long file on someone who happens to offend them. [See Zero Tolerance For Non-Compliance] The victim would never see the message or be able to set the record straight.

"Lifelong learning" is key to the international education system that links American education to the UNESCO blueprint. All people - from cradle to grave - become part of a system intent on producing "responsible" global citizens for the global community. Promoting solidarity by reporting non-compliance is part of that responsibility.

In his article, "US planning to recruit one in 24 Americans as citizen spies," investigative journalist Ritt Goldstein includes this warning:

"Historically, informant systems have been the tools of non-democratic states. According to a 1992 report by Harvard University's Project on Justice, the accuracy of informant reports is problematic, with some informants having embellished the truth, and others suspected of having fabricated their reports.

"Present Justice Department procedures mean that informant reports will enter databases for future reference and/or action. The information will then be broadly available within the department, related agencies and local police forces. The targeted individual will remain unaware of the existence of the report and of its contents."[9]

4. "Mental Health" and "hate crimes" policies promote such reporting. At the 1997 White House conference on Hate Crimes, former President Clinton announced that "The Justice Department will make its own hate crimes training curriculum available. A lot of hate crimes still go unreported.... If a crime is unreported, that gives people an excuse to ignore it." Then he announced a Justice Department website which invites children to tell "trusted adults" about "hateful" or exclusive expressions they might hear at home -- such as a negative comment about unbiblical lifestyles.[10]

The UN plan for "Healthy Cities and Communities" makes this kind of "prevention" a personal duty. "I challenge our young people to realize their important role in this seamless system," said former DHHS Secretary Donna Shalala at the 1996 National Children’s Mental Health Initiative. "Many times, you as friends are the strongest link in the chain of contact. You know best when your brother, your sister or your friend is facing problems..."[11]

Her call for young spies goes far beyond the need to stop violence, and each dramatic social crisis justifies more government control. We shouldn’t be surprised. "Brother will betray brother..." warned Jesus, "and children will rise up against parents.... And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake." Mark 13:12-13

5. All must be included in the global network of data banks. On July 16, 1996, President Clinton signed Executive Order #13011, creating a massive new bureaucracy with authority to manage "Federal Information Technology." It links the data gathered by the health, education, and labor departments to the data accessible to the FBI, CIA, EPA, other federal agencies and international data systems.

Standing alone, this executive order might raise little alarm. But examined in the light of UN documents and stated government intentions, it looks ominous. The UN has called for a sophisticated international computerized information system that would (1) disseminate its politically correct data and pseudo-scientific risk assessments into every community, (2) build consensus based on its visions, goals, values, and choices, then (3) monitor individual and collective compliance everywhere--including our homes.

That data tracking system was mandated in the Beijing Platform for Action, the official UN document signed by the nations at the close of the 1995 UN Conference for Women. "Develop gender-sensitive databases, information and monitoring systems," it states. It calls for the "consistent flow of information" among "national, subregional/regional [FEMA?] and international institutions" - all under the watchful guidance of the United Nations Social and Economic Council. [12]

So when President Clinton established an agency to oversee the implementation of the Beijing Platform, he endorsed a system that would snoop into homes, schools and workplaces. When in place, it would monitor all citizens and organizations (including churches) for compliance with feminist views on gender and a woman's place in the family and society. [See Mine is the Power]

6. Global surveillance networks lessen government accountability. The EU wants communications companies to record all phone calls, e-mails, faxes and net use -- an easy challenge with today's technology.[13] Echelon may be the most extensive global network. It allows the USA, Australia, England and Canada to bypass their own constitutional bans on domestic spying by spying for each other, then sharing the information. In other words, Canada can't spy on its own citizens, but the USA can legally spy for Canada -- making a mockery of law."

7. "Community Policing" programs have been preparing people to accept neighborhood spies. The website for the San Mateo (CA) program explains the new policy: "...continued communication must be maintained with the community. Keep them informed; this provides for a sense of accomplishment and opens up the citizenry to bring forward other problems. Reinforce the philosophy that citizens are the eyes and ears of the community."[14]
 sanderick

Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 21
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History
Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 10:45:37 AM
So I am getting from the previous posts that most people here are against Neighborhood Watch?

It takes a Village to raise a child and takes a Village to protect that child.

Here is some neighborhood watch information.



Neighborhood Watch is undoubtedly one of the oldest and most well-known crime prevention programs in history. While the modern day concept of program rose to prominence in the late 1960s in response to an increasing burglary rate, the roots of Neighborhood Watch can actually be traced all the way back to the days of Colonial settlements, when night watchmen patrolled the streets.

The modern version of the Neighborhood Watch Program was developed as a result of the multiple requests from sheriffs and police chiefs around the country who were looking for a crime prevention program that would incorporate citizen involvement and address the increasing number of burglaries taking place, especially in rural and suburban areas. In 1972, the National Sheriffs' Association (NSA) took the concept a step further by seeking funding to make the program a national initiative. Thanks to a grant from the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, the National Neighborhood Watch Program was started.

For the first two years, the program was devoted primarily to disseminating information on the nature and volume of burglary and securing residential property and making it less vulnerable to break-ins. From there, it evolved into a program that promoted the establishment of ongoing local neighborhood watch groups that encouraged citizens to partner with their law enforcement agencies in an effort to reduce various types of "neighborhood crime."

Since its beginnings, Neighborhood Watch has grown from an "extra eyes and ears" approach to crime prevention to a much more proactive, community-oriented endeavor providing a unique infrastructure that brings together local officials, law enforcement, and citizens for the protection of their communities. Today's Neighborhood Watch programs incorporate activities that not only address crime prevention issues, but also restore pride and unity to a neighborhood. It is not uncommon to see members of Neighborhood Watch groups participating in community cleanups and other activities that strive to improve the quality of life for community residents.

In addition, the adoption of community policing by local law enforcement agencies has contributed to a resurgence in Watch groups over the years. Neighborhood Watch fits nicely into the framework of law enforcement/community partnerships, and Neighborhood Watch meetings provide a useful forum for airing neighborhood problems and practicing problem-solving techniques.

Furthermore, Neighborhood Watch has become especially practical in our current society, in which two-income families are the norm and many neighborhoods are deserted during the day. While criminals have attempted to use this statistic to their advantage, law enforcement has uncovered an important reality: the communities in which citizens have observed and reported suspicious activity have enjoyed lower crime rates.

As communities throughout the country have adopted the program and reported success, the popularity of the Neighborhood Watch Program has grown, and it continues to still.

http://www.usaonwatch.org/AboutUs/AboutUSAOnWatch.php


Hmmmm, LOWER CRIME through a more close knit community.

and this is an abuse of power????????

Give me a break...
 OneBlend

Joined: 3/31/2007
Msg: 22
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History
Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 10:58:25 AM
You don't need a break. Apparently you need a history lesson. Maybe you've been on break too long - but that's okay .. everyone loves a snitch and what goes around comes around. Sorry hun, the latter is the law of the universe.
This isn't about "neighborhood watch" ... (shaking my head and laughing at fearmongering )
 Guy Named Ray

Joined: 2/19/2008
Msg: 23
Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 11:06:30 AM
Hmmmm, LOWER CRIME through a more close knit community.
and this is an abuse of power????????
Give me a break...


Neighborhood watch is neighbors looking out for neighbors.
The Terrorism Liaison Officer is not looking out for you, they are looking AT you.
 oddsrhuge

Joined: 7/10/2007
Msg: 24
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History
Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 11:14:52 AM

So I am getting from the previous posts that most people here are against Neighborhood Watch?


Did you even READ the original post?????

This isn't a post about a community protecting it's own, its about a concerted effort to employ as many "snitches" in public service to compile data on persons who are acting suspiciously. Unfortunately, "suspiciously" in these definitions includes everybody who walks, talks, reads, writes or draws. You don't think thats a little over the top?

Long live the new gestapo!!!

Peace
 sanderick

Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 25
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History
Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 11:15:47 AM
Over 3,000 people were murdered on 9-11 and this could have been prevented by a program just like this.

I'm sure that those people who had to jump out of the windows of the burning buildings to their deaths would have thought before they jumped.

"Here I am about to jump to my death, but I will die happy knowing that there wasn't an 'abuse' of power"



What most people here fail to acknowledge is that if there was an abuse of power the main stream media, and ACLU, would pounce on them in an instant, and the public outcry would stop it.

However, rest of the program that would save lives, would actually SAVE LIVES.

Hmmm, Saving People from being murdered by terrorists.

What a novel idea.

To bad we didn't start this Pre 911.
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