| Happy Independence but not quite free day...
Posted: 7/4/2008 4:05:54 PM | Hopefull you dont get to crazy tonight, and that you all stay responsible adults....
Pfft. Get yourselves a designated driver and enjoy the evening.
Tell us your plans, and then tomorrow you're more than welcome to share your wild stories for a couple of laughs.
Either way. Have a good one everyone.
-Rick | |
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| Happy Independence but not quite free day...
Posted: 7/4/2008 7:12:51 PM | ^^^Well, Independence Day is specifically to celebrate our freedom from British Rule. Seems like holidays keep getting watered-down from their original intent.
Secretary's Day = Administrative Asst. Day
George Washington's/A. Lincoln's Birthdays = President's Day
Remembrance Day = Memorial Weekend
These holiday's seem to have become mostly about corporate convenience. 3 day holidays from work or combined to lessen lost work time.
Let's celebrate and honor the men and women who made this day possible and continue to protect the integrity of our way of life. (or our lives as we would wish them to be).
....and watch things EXPLODE!!!! | |
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| Happy Independence but not quite free day...
Posted: 7/6/2008 5:00:32 PM | Independence Day is a Holiday? Why TF did I have to work 10 hours?!
Why? Because you picked a job where you have to work on holidays. In fact I suspect that holidays are your busiest days at work.
Independence Day is specifically to celebrate our freedom from British Rule.
No, it's to celebrate declaring independence from the Kingdom of Great Britain.
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| Happy Independence but not quite free day...
Posted: 7/6/2008 6:36:36 PM | "YOU need to travel more and really look around this world "
at the 26 countries who live in greater freedom than we do?
Or... per news reports tonight... at the countries where Big Brother isn't watching on thousands of cameras .. 1984 was only 20 years early in prediction. Cities only pay 10% of cost, Homeland insecurity and fear pays the other 90% | |
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| Happy Independence but not quite free day...
Posted: 7/6/2008 10:38:00 PM | I've looked at at least a few of the "26 countries freer than ours", and by my own standards though still find ours on top by a long shot: freedom to travel, freedom to choose what you will do, freedom to not be cast into an inescapable class ranking, freedom to get education, freedom to choose your mate, freedom to choose your religion, freedom of speech, freedom of thought and to explore, even freedom to fail.
Cameras: Working in the profession that I do, we find that people generally feel safer when cameras are around; they understand that they are for their own safety and security that a third person (note: most have first names like Larry, or Steve, or Sue rather than "Big") is watching. An honest person has no reason to fear camera review. However, it does point out the fact that if we have to put these devices in place to protect against the illicit, then maybe that indeed should be interpreted as a sign that we have given too much freedom to fail...... [With the flip side being: that we haven't taught responsibility and good citizenship enough...........but this thread isn't about those subjects, but rather just the freedom side (but however, with freedom must come responsibility to maintain it)]. | |
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| Happy Independence but not quite free day...
Posted: 7/7/2008 7:44:59 AM |
No, it's to celebrate declaring independence from the Kingdom of Great Britain.
No, It wasn't a holiday/celebration until we were free. I'm sure a few  's were hoisted at the time, but...
Don't get all "symantical" with me eeek!
Symantical: verb. Meaning to nit pik.
nit pik: verb. Meaning to pik a nit. | |
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| Happy Independence but not quite free day...
Posted: 7/7/2008 12:28:00 PM | Interesting political and societal rantings going on here. :-)
As for my Independence Day, I exercised my freedom and liberty to go bar-hopping at some ridiculous-yet-fabulous dives in the S.F. Mission District.
After 4 excellent hours in a karaoke bar, I enjoyed a 3am burrito with friends (gotta love the Mission!), and learned that burritos aren't really mexican after all, but a mexican-american creation. So my evening was somewhat patriotic, after all! | |
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| Happy Independence but not quite free day...
Posted: 7/7/2008 2:31:12 PM |
After 4 excellent hours in a karaoke bar
Ok, I must admit to some confusion here. I have never thought that excellent and karaoke could be legally used in the same sentence. It's just not natural! | |
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| Happy Independence but not quite free day...
Posted: 7/7/2008 7:00:02 PM |
Ok, I must admit to some confusion here. I have never thought that excellent and karaoke could be legally used in the same sentence. It's just not natural!
No less natural than using 3 kittens to spice up your profile picture, brother! Actually, now that I think of it, your strategy appears intact......crafty, even.
By next week I'll have a profile pic with me holding four daschund puppies. Top that! | |
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| Happy Independence but not quite free day...
Posted: 7/9/2008 5:52:50 PM | to o4
I have traveled the world. I was born in germany, and moved around all of europe as well as all over the US. also with today's passing law over the FISA bill. the government clearly shows that they don't care of the people in charge illegally spy on people for "national security" reasons.
Yeah, you could say that only criminals need to be afraid of being spied on, and that normal law abiding citizens have nothing to worry about. Well, that system is great and is definitely praised when its catching the bad guys. But what about when an innocent person is wrongfully accused and charged?
we had the checks and balances set up for a reason. so that one party couldnt have too much power over another. it just seems that Americans these days are too willing to give up freedoms because they don't want to take the responsibility for ensuring their freedom. they would rather someone else do the work for them.
yes, we have the freedom to seek an education, the freedom to choose our lovers, and definitely the freedom to fail, but some of the other ones you state are slowly slipping away. Our freedom of speech is fine as long as its supportive of the government, Ive seen plenty of peaceful protesters go to jail. we don't have the freedom to not be cast into an inescapable class ranking, people work their entire lives, and most still are barely able to put food on the table. I would have to say, that's inescapably close to poverty.
The founding fathers risked their lives and fortunes to fight oppression from the most powerful empire in the world back in their day. How many people are willing to do that today? Very few.
I'm a member of the armed forces, I swore to uphold the constitution. But it just looks like the famous "living document" is being called outdated and cant be applied to modern society. thats not what america is about. | |
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| Happy Independence but not quite free day...
Posted: 7/10/2008 2:05:53 PM | Let me tell you a little story about the "freedom" we have in America. It's a laugh. Every single one of our constitutional amendments has been watered down and now exists in a re-written and barely recognizable form. Every single issue for which we decided to revolt from British rule has been reimposed upon the American people.
1. Taxation without representation?: Yeah, we have that. Washington, D.C. is taxed extremely heavily and has no representation in Congress.
2. Stamp/Tea tax: ROFLMAO, we tax the hell out of everything these days
3. Tariffs? Yeah, we got em.
4. Quartering of troops: If your neighbor calls the cops and tells them you are selling drugs out of your house because he just doesn't like you, guess what they can do? They can break your door down if you don't answer it within 20 seconds, they can handcuff everyone inside and sit you in your garage for 6 hours or more while they search your house, they can search your person, they can arrest you for anything illegal they find (did you know that some of the movies you can rent on Netflix are considered child pornography in this country . . . even mainstream American films like the Blue Lagoon?), they can hold you for 48 hours without so much as a hearing, they can strip search you in a room with cops of both genders looking on . . . all because your neighbor didn't like your tree limbs going over the fence.
Did you know that you can be arrested for speeding one single mile per hour over the speed limit in this country? It's true! The US Supreme Court held that a person can be arrested for speeding. Of course, if you are arrested for anything, you can be searched without question incident to that arrest. This means that the cop can touch your privates (considered a sexual battery if anyone else does it) FOR SPEEDING. He can also search your car, impound it, search it again when it gets to the station, strip search you in front of cops of opposite gender, hold you for 48 hours without a hearing, and charge you for the stay in jail all FOR SPEEDING?!?!?!? Is that freedom? How can anyone who actually believes this country is free justify all of that to themselves? I realize that most Americans have no clue that this is possible because it has never happened to them, but this happens ALL THE TIME.
Did you know that these very same police have no duty whatsoever to render assistance to anyone? Did you know that there was a case out of New York where a couple saw a women being brutally beaten and thrown in the trunk of a car kicking and screaming and they followed the car as best they could. Then they passed a cop so they stopped and told the cop about the situation. The cop told them not to worry and that he would take care of it . . . but instead DID NOTHING. The court held that the cop had no duty to render assistance to anyone and thus had no legal liability for the woman who was repeatedly raped and stabbed and left for dead because he simply chose to do nothing.
So what are cops for if it isn't to help people? Well, they are there to make money for the State and to make sure that citizens are jailed for speeding or carrying marijuana on their persons. Why does America jail more of its citizens than China? Well, because our laws ensure that we are not free. Indeed, just stepping outside your house and into your car subjects you to all the things I have described above in this country. How can anyone claim that this means that we are free?
In the Netherlands and Germany, for example, you cannot go to jail for speeding (on most roads there aren't even speed limits), or for carrying small amounts of marijuana (legal in the Netherlands, decriminalized in Germany). Our country is a young one. It still has a big brother, heavy-handed sort of parental guidance theory. Once we figure out that it isn't about being restrictive, then we will truly be free. Until then, we are simply pawns in their game.
Consider this: can you claim a country is free when its people do not even elect their own leader!?!??! Did you know that the popular vote for President of the USA means aboslutely jack s h i t? Did you know that some presidents in our history lost the popular vote to another guy who got more votes and yet still became president? That's right, your vote for president means absolutely nothing. It has no effect whatsoever on who eventually becomes president. Did you know that if no one cast a single solitary popular vote for president that a president would be elected anyway? Why? Well because WE, the people, DO NOT ELECT THE PRESIDENT. The president is elected by "electors" who can choose to vote any way they please. In fact, it is possible for ALL of the voters of one state to cast their popular votes entirely for one candidate, and yet have the electors all vote for the other and you know what would happen in that instance? ALL of the state's vote would go with who the electors voted for. Wake up you Americans with star-spangled eyes . . . you are NOT free. Don't fool yourselves. But hey, if you want to blow up some Chinese inventions to celebrate putting off British rule for a more oppressive American one, be my guest. | |
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| Happy Independence but not quite free day...
Posted: 7/11/2008 8:19:04 AM | daveatcmf, there are canons of literature, films, songs, fine art, and every communication media I can think of giving different meanings for the term "freedom". It's a relative thing. Some people will tell you that their freedom ends at the tip of your nose. Some others will tell you that your freedom extends several inches (or many miles) further away from them than that. Although individuals can do many things on their own, just about every square inch of the planet is owned by a nation, which is also ruled by certain classes of people and they in turn are ruled by an even higher class of people, etc, etc... and being a citizen of any nation is a default situation... and pretty hard to leave whatever nation one is born in as a general rule.
Not that there's any small class of people that rules the world... it's just that we're all interdependant upon each other and our freedoms are restricted by that interdependance.
For instance: right now, the US government is over a barrel (of oil) by certain energy industrialists. No matter how powerful it is, it can't do whatever it wants about energy. We're restricted by what we have to do to make things work.
The dialogue and struggle over how we define "freedom" is a dialogue and struggle to improve the quality of life and when that debate becomes hottest and heaviest is usually when that quality gets better, in my humble opinion... BUT we can't just pretend like we can do anything we want. That kind of world is unworkable. | |
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| Happy Independence but not quite free day...
Posted: 7/11/2008 8:59:04 AM | StrangerInTheHouse:
Finally! An intelligent response to an honest opinion! I really appreciate your words sir and I fully respect them. You didn't feed me propoganda; you gave a measured and intelligent response and made some good points as well.
You are right, no one is entirely "free." I think what I'm trying to get at is that most Americans celebrating their "freedom" have very little clue about how free they really are with respect to anyone else in the world. It's true, MOST of the countries in the world would be far less "free" than our own. However, I do not believe we are the most free nation on earth and I think anyone fooling themselves into believeing such a thing simply lives his own life in such a fashion as to never come up against the forces that would tell him he can't do what he would like.
Another poster noted that peaceful protesters get put in jail these days. In the Vietnam era, we used to protest and I truly believe that it made a difference? What happened? Well . . . Kent State for one. The government showed us that it was willing to shoot and kill those who would question it. Since then, the people of the US have been afraid to protest. You are right about times of questioning the government . . . those are normally times when things get done. However, I believe the government has the people frightened with the terror lies and people are far more willing to give up their freedom in such times because they are afraid. Benjamin Franklin once said,
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither and will lose both."
My issue with those with star-spangled eyes who spout the fact that we are the freest country on earth know very little about freedom. The freedoms they would cite are freedom of speech, or of religion. However, they know very little about freedom of speech because they have never attempted to use it when it conflicted with the government or popular opinion. The alien and sedition acts have put MANY people in jail since the 1800's for simply speaking their minds. Eugene v. Debs was put in jail and got a million popular votes for the presidency in 1920 from his jail cell. He was jailed for speaking out against the government in a "time of war." One only has free speech until one choose to exercise it against the government. However, one of our own founding documents, the declaration of independence, says that people have the inalienable RIGHT to speak out against their government when it oppresses them and indeed every citizen has the DUTY to do so. I asked one of my law school professors if he believed that someone could be jailed if they read the declaration of independence in a public place. He said that if it incited violence then they could, but I think that simply reading the thing (because it advocates overthrow of an oppressive government) during a time of war would be enough to be jailed. Interesting, no?
I think that freedom and happiness are proportionate for humans. I've noticed in the countries that are freer than ours that the people are generally happier. They have lower crime rates, they don't walk into schools and start shooting people, etc.
Again, with the "patriot act," most Americans don't care that this is 1984 in action because they have never read 1984 and because its provisions will never be carried out against them personally. It will be carried out against minorities, or those suspected of terrorism. Most whitebread americans will never be a victim of the lack of freedom in this country because they are the very same people who accept the backward laws and police fascist rule unquestioningly and without reason to fight it. No one is ever upset about freedom until their own freedom is compromised. Well, I've been in the back of police cars and have been handcuffed (never arrested because I wasn't ever doing anything wrong) and searched and throw on the ground by cops for "driving while teenage." If it doesn't happen to you, then you can believe that it doesn't happen to anyone else either. You watch the show "cops" on tv and they only carry out their oppression against crackheads, so it's all good, right? By the same token, we can believe that the government is only reading the e-mails and listening in on the phone calls of those who are terrorists, right? Well, if they knew they were terrorists, then they wouldn't need to do all of that. The truth is, they are listening in and reading our personal words and we will never know it as long as we follow their rules.
Freedom is something that cannot be defined. It is something we feel and never believe we lack until it is taken from us. The gun toting Americans learned this very recently when the USSCT ruled for the first definitive time on the 2nd amendment. I guarantee you there would have been an uproar if the court had gone the other way. Many Americans who never would have protested would have taken up arms (literally) for their cause.
All of us will eventually have what we feel is our "freedom" tested at some point because it is the way of governments to take and take and take because the more authority you have, the less resistance you have. Everyone who has their freedom restricted in some way must be vocal about it and must make their cause known. Thus, I must speak my mind about the freedoms I see wittling away because another part of the government's strategy is to cut spending on education concurrently with increasing spending on military actions. This way, you keep your people stupid so that they don't have the intellect to question your actions. This is also a very 1984-esque strategy. We are taught to hate our enemies and then love them once they are on our side . . . until they aren't anymore.
So I encourage everyone to question and to keep their ears to the ground and to be vocal when your freedom is called into question. | |
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