| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 9:45:52 AM | It appears that roughly 40% of men and 80% of women adhere to old traditional values when it comes to dating. Now granted, if you are a lady, you naturally would enjoy a man with traditional dating beliefs. However, I am getting more and more convinced that traditional dating etiquette translates to traditional gender role expectations and could hence be used to gauge behavior to come.
As such, what are your thoughts in regards to this thesis? Are men with traditional dating etiquette more prone to adhere and believe in traditional gender roles as well? | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 9:51:09 AM | Where di you get these figures from?
Firstly it would surprise me greatly if 80% of women adhere to old traditional values. The lack of responses, or rude responses to appropriate messages clearly indicates that is not the case.
Secondly, what convinces you that "traditional dating etiquette translates to traditional gender role expectations and could hence be used to gauge behavior to come"? Is this anecdotal evidence? Experiential? What are the definitions?
I'm interested in this. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 9:52:58 AM |
Define what you mean by "traditional values when it comes to dating".
Traditional dating values would include:
a) The man asking the woman out.
b) The man plans and pays for the date.
c) The man adhere to chivalry tenets and believes (open doors, send roses etc).
d) The man is primarily responsible for the initial courting rituals etc.
Define "traditional gender role expectations".
These would include.
a) The man is the primary breadwinner and head of household.
b) The man is responsible for repairs and the financial aspects of the household while the woman is responsible for the maintenance of the home and children.
Does that help? | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 9:55:08 AM |
Secondly, what convinces you that "traditional dating etiquette translates to traditional gender role expectations and could hence be used to gauge behavior to come"? Is this anecdotal evidence? Experiential?
From living in the south for a few years my experience told me that this holds true in most cases. But it is just a thesis at this point based on observations and experience. Hence this thread. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 10:00:28 AM | OK what about this. Traditional values are embedded in mostly the older generation or those with anachronistic views and are based around men being the provider.
I think we've all moved on mostly from this now and whilst some traditions are good, I like women asking me out, I like that they might suggest something they would like to do/place to go, I especially like that they may even decide to pay their way. We're meeting up to see if we like each other, not for one of us to freeload off the other because there's a declared interest.
Interesting thesis. I'm guessing that it's based on one or two biased experiences rather than objective research, as I don't agree. :) | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 10:09:12 AM | No - we haven't "all moved on"! 
I'm a southern gentleman, and very traditional. By and large, the women I date are pretty traditional too. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. They are wonderful women...
My daughter attends a Christian school and has taken cotillion classes. If I've done my job, she'll grow up a southern belle and hold those same values too... Hopefully, so will the young men she chooses to date...
Mark
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 10:22:59 AM | 99% of all statistics quoted on POF are pulled right out of the OPs imagination.
Go to the thread "a date from hell" and you will quickly discover that those numbers are substantiated. But that is not the substance of the thread. Its whether or not traditional dating etiquette translates into gender role expectations. Is there a correlation or not? I believe there is from what I've seen but I might be wrong.
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 10:28:35 AM |
It appears that roughly 40% of men and 80% of women adhere to old traditional values when it comes to dating.
It appears you need your prescription changed on those traditional glasses you are viewing the dating world through.
Now granted, if you are a lady, you naturally would enjoy a man with traditional dating beliefs.
If you are a lady naturally!
However, I am getting more and more convinced that traditional dating etiquette translates to traditional gender role expectations and could hence be used to gauge behavior to come.
Times have changed the traditional gender roles have blurred . The woman is main
breadwinner in one out of three relationships. don't you just abhor averages?
As such, what are your thoughts in regards to this thesis?
These are not my thoughts but Rex Stout says it better than I....
There are two kinds of statistics, the kind you look up,and the kind you make up. ~  | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 10:29:26 AM | """""Go to the thread "a date from hell" and you will quickly discover that those numbers are substantiated. But that is not the substance of the thread. Its whether or not traditional dating etiquette translates into gender role expectations. Is there a correlation or not? I believe there is from what I've seen but I might be wrong. """
Is whether traditional dating etiquette translates into gender role expectations???
Well hmm, geees I don't know exactly what the question is asking except everything that gets talked about on POF but in different words...
Many "traditions" remain today for many people in many cultures.....But things have changed sooo much even since the 1960's....that Gays can now get married in many places. Does that definitively answer the question? Gender role expectations are all over the map nowadays, but there are some biological instinctual expectations most people inherently have. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 10:36:33 AM | Since there seem to be a significant amount of confusion regarding this question I will help to clarify:
If a man adhere to traditional dating tenets as defined above, does he also generally speaking believe in traditional gender roles (as defined above). Of course, there is a multitude of answers as there is a multitude of people, but what have you folks experienced in the real world? What are your experiences? | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 10:43:44 AM | People have all different kinds of relationships... I've known Southern Belles who got Master's degrees and earn six figures... if I got serious with a lady like that, would I expect her to quit her job and stay home? Of course not... But if she's going to be out working, and earning money for the family, then I can also step up and help with more of the housework, shopping, etc... It just all depends on the curcumstances... Now if I were getting serious with a woman who earned 20-30,000, then yea, I'd probably would want her to just not work... In my tax bracket, which would become hers if we married, it just wouldn't make any sense for her to work...
In general though, sure, I'll go along with your position... If I date a woman with traditional values, then sure, the relationship will probably wind up being pretty traditional too.
Mark
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 10:45:52 AM |
However, I am getting more and more convinced that traditional dating etiquette translates to traditional gender role expectations and could hence be used to gauge behavior to come.
"Traditional dating etiquette", at one time required the man to request permission of the lady's father( or other 'guardian/protector' figure, i.e, an adult brother, an uncle) to call on her.
When I and my sisters were teenagers/young women still living under our parent's roof, our dates came to the door, came in the house, met the parents...none of this driving up and honking the horn crap. And pretty much until such time as a relationship became quite serious, traditional dating patterns were followed. And that was pretty much the SOP among our peers. All of us( me and my siblings) went on to marry, AND work outside the home, contributing significantly to the finances of our households. While I wasn't closely involved, I'm fairly certain my brother followed traditional patterns when dating the woman who is now my sister-in-law. There have been times that his occupation/business was slow, and during those times he was more than happy to be "Mr. Mom" to their 3 kids.
So, speaking from my experiences, I DON'T think that traditional dating etiquette sets up a traditional gender role scenario.
Cindy O | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 10:46:58 AM | Since I haven't ever dated women, I can only give my personal [het woman] side of this. I hope it helps with your stats gathering.
Traditional dating values:
--most men ask me out first, but I put myself in the position to be asked out. No man *I* have EVER asked out has said yes, except online. And *I* have asked men out online, as well as been asked out by men online (50/50).
--I have paid for dates, although I must say MOST men insist upon paying. Since I do not believe in arm-wrestling for the check, I allow them to. I have actually had men be OFFENDED by my paying for the dinner or whatever--I INSULTED the men by paying. This is not rare, either. So, now, I offer to pay, and if he says no, I do not argue.
--I have rarely been given gifts by men, so the roses thing doesn't apply. I expect all humans to be polite, men and women and --yes-- even children. Many men hold the first door and allow me to enter first, but if there is an inner door, I will then hold THAT one for him.
--I'm not sure what the "initial courting" means, but it takes two to tango. I am a very private person, and as such, respect other people's privacy. Unless a man tells me specifically that he would like me to call him, I probably will not do it. Plus, I have in the past been treated as though I WERE interrupting their lives by calling; I will email without worry, though.
Traditional gender roles:
--I don't think that men necessarily make more money than women do any more, or not MUCH more, anyway. I DO think men feel the burden of making money more than do the women. I do not blame the women (or feminists) for this, though. I think men need to re-think what value they bring to a relationship--men are NOT just the money-makers, men bring much more to the table than their wallets. Women WANT much more from men than just their wallets.
--I do not really believe it has traditionally been the man's resposibility for "financial apects"--I think women always ran the households, and that includes making the budgets and paying the bills (dispersing the funds that he made appropriately). Now, I think whoever is better at that should be the one to do it. If a man is good at repairs (I am pretty handy, but there are some things I feel better left to pros), he may have at it--but only if he's competent. We ALL live in the house and we ALL work outside of it now, so I believe men should do their fair share of the housework (this should be a negotiable percentage based on the couple's particular circumstance, though, not an absolute set forth by the satte or PoF forumites). | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 10:55:33 AM | In my experience your stats don’t hold true. I have found that men adhere to traditional dating rituals more so than women, and that for these men it does not equate to traditional gender role expectations. These men value women and the varying roles they play. They seem to realize that a woman can be feminine and “ladylike” on a date while still being capable of a successful career and having various skills and interests.
Both my father and brother-in-law are very gentlemanly (opening doors, protective, asking their wives for dates, etc) and believe that women should be treated as ladies, while admiring the fact that women are intelligent and equally capable of many things. My sister and step-mother are extremely intelligent successful career women. My father loves the fact that he can brag about how I’ve renovated most of my house on my own, have a great career, travel all over the place on my own, but he would never dream of allowing me to walk outside in the rain to get the car when I leave his house just because I am a lady! | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 10:56:56 AM |
If a man adhere to traditional dating tenets as defined above, does he also generally speaking believe in traditional gender roles (as defined above). Of course, there is a multitude of answers as there is a multitude of people, but what have you folks experienced in the real world? What are your experiences?
Well I guess that would depend if the male is so stuck in HIS views on what is "traditional". I struggle with the "confusion" that soooo many men seem to suffer from. Last time I looked, the majority of "traditional" etiquette seems to be based on a man being interested in a woman, so that is how he shows his interest.....Where is the confusion here? Why would a man, that is interested in a woman, struggle with showing his interest? Why would he let something get in his way?
Why do so any men come on these forums and complain that women dont ask them out? Why do so many men whine about feminism somehow stealing their ability to indicate interest? I really dont get this. If you are so easily dissuaded from approaching a women that you ae interested in, then chanves are you probably arent relationship material. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 11:03:46 AM | I think what the OP is getting at is not so much traditional gender roles but the interpretation of them that is more along the lines of the barefoot and pregnant scenario, i.e. the man wears the pants and the woman should follow his lead.
In instances when men are into the whole proving that they are a man thing they do embrace "traditional" dating and gender roles. These types tend to be the ones that do not think it is appropriate for the SO to make a move without their knowledge or approval and say things like people should not put themselves in positions where temptation exists, etc.
In other words, it is individual attitude not a causal situation because people can embrace traditional dating and gender roles without requiring that either party be dominant. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 11:03:57 AM | Why do so any men come on these forums and complain that women dont ask them out? Why do so many men whine about feminism somehow stealing their ability to indicate interest? I really dont get this. If you are so easily dissuaded from approaching a women that you ae interested in, then chanves are you probably arent relationship material.
Great observation and I firmly believe that there is a great deal of confusion, especially amongst men, of what is being expected of them. I noticed that this confusion is more concentrated amongst gen X. Some are raised with emergent views while others with traditional value sets. The boomers tend to be more traditional while millenias are predominantly emergent. You add the tenets of equality into this mix and you have widespread confusion regarding expectations, especially amongst older generations. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 11:06:50 AM |
Define what you mean by "traditional values when it comes to dating".
Traditional dating values would include:
a) The man asking the woman out.
b) The man plans and pays for the date.
c) The man adhere to chivalry tenets and believes (open doors, send roses etc).
d) The man is primarily responsible for the initial courting rituals etc.
Define "traditional gender role expectations".
These would include.
a) The man is the primary breadwinner and head of household.
b) The man is responsible for repairs and the financial aspects of the household while the woman is responsible for the maintenance of the home and children.
Does that help?
I don't think men have a choice in the matter. Most western women will push for "tradition" when it serves them best and will push for "modern feminism" when it serves them best.
Most women will find it degrading to approach men and ask them out. Never mind modern feminism says a woman can do anything a man can do. You won't find many that will offer to pay for the whole first date. You won't find many that will buy their man an engagement ring.
It's all a game. If I don't pay for the first date, despite what most women will say out loud about dutch and equality and paying their own way, most of them will resent me for it deep down. Same for opening doors and buying flowers on Valentines Day.
If there was real "equality", women would share the burden of first contacts, asking guys out, paying for dates and the costs of courtship, both financial and emotional. Do they? Not a chance for most. Most women don't really want equality, but it sounds good to say it and scream it at most men.
When I deal with most women, my base question is this - "What's in it for her?"
When I find what gives her the most reward for the least amount of her effort, I line up which reasoning will best justify it in her mind ( often it won't in my mind and I'd wager it won't in most men's minds). If it's tradition, she will claim that. If it's modern feminism, she will claim that.
Take a man's last name. The dirty little secret is most women want a name that "sounds right" But saying that sounds shallow. The other dirty little secret is some women don't like how their own last name sounds compared to a potential new one from the guy.
"I'm keeping my last name for work!"
No, odds are you think yours sounds better and you don't want to sound shallow and petty so you fabricate a pro feminist reason.
"I'm in love and I am proud of my husband and I believe in the family unit!"
No, odds are you spent your life as Angela ButtheadCornholio and going to Angela Smith is much nicer and you don't want to sound shallow and petty over a name so you fabricate a pro tradition reason.
Women control sex and who gets it and when. As long as they do, most men will have to tolerate this behavior.
I think the mistake most men make when they list to most women discuss tradition versus modern feminism is they actually believe what they are being told. That's fine, words. But what really counts is what people actually do given a specific situation.
Most women will probably desire to get the most they can while expending the least effort to get it. (It's very human isn't it? And, in some ways, very American) The "roles" they desire a man to take or play will shift on that concept accordingly. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 11:16:33 AM | Eeek...I will scream if this thread turns into yet another who pays, thread!!
I do not consider myself to be traditional in my dating beliefs. I will do the asking, the paying, the sharing, the initiating,...Sam I Am! ;)
I like to think of it more as an equal endeavor...with the only time roles are actually gender based when it pertains to the person, more so than the gender. In other words...if HE works well on cars, and I love being in the kitchen...maybe those roles are taken on....but not because of our sex, more so preference.
I am also the sort who would put absolutely no weight on him making more or less of a salary...as long as he HAS a salary! ;)
Even the small gestures...like opening a door...it's a nice gesture, and one that I would certainly reciprocate by doing the same on occassion. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 11:22:53 AM | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^Too long to cut and paste....Unstoppable, what you forget is that women struggle just as much as men when it comes to dating and relationships. Just as many men have "traditional" ideas of how a women should behave as women. You make it sound like men are just these poor idiots, bumbling along trying to conform when that is not the case. For every man that has posted his frustration regarding dating there is a woman who did try to pay for a meal, only to have the man get offended, or have to deal with some clown who thinks he is owed sex because he dropped $50 on a date that HE arranged. Or make snide comments about how much monmey she makes, or how she must have got her house in the "divorce". No one gender has it worse.
So if you want to spend your time complaining that because women can get a divorce, have the same finacial rights, own their own home and somehow equate that to your not having the parts to indicate interest in a women, fill your boots.
I honestly wonder how these people get through life..do you have the same attitude when you are interviewing for a job, or when you deal with your banker when it comes to your mortgage or credit? | |
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