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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/13/2008 12:24:20 PM | In order to fill our ranks with enough bodies, the military is handing out wavers for people with convictions, allowing defendants to choose the the army instead of jail and allowing people with drug, alcohol and psychological problems waivers to get into the service and being deployed to Iraq. In 2003 it was around 4000 criminals and in 2007 that was up to 9935 criminals, mostly misdomeanors.
However they also they've allowed 1492 with serious fellony convictions and 2122 drug addicts and alcoholics get these waivers to join the military.
These are resulting in things like:
A sodier at Abu Graib stealing a gun from an Iraqi translator and trying to mail it back to the states where he's not allowed to own a gun.
Getting drugs to sell to other soldiers
A soldier on duty killing an Iraqi soldier by stabbing him 17 times with a bayonet for lighting a cigarette.
Do you care about our government sending rapists, thieves and crazy violent felons to represent us in foriegn countries?
Do you think those honorable, sane soldiers want to be working next to someone like this? | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/13/2008 12:43:33 PM | Just when I thought this fiasco couldn't get any worse...
Sure I want people like that to give supposed Freedom, to a nation that has been under a tyrant for 20 yrs. Would they notice the difference, after all their own government under Sadam was like that, so what is a little rape, murder and theft... (as I want to vomit)
Is the the US government hoping that the Iraqis have a better means of dealing with such felons? Does the US Government think this is some sort of rehab for unruly people?
Honorable and sane men and women have come home changed, dark, broading and sometimes violent. What do they think these that have a thought process of such acceptable violence is going to have?
Only in America I guess.... | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/13/2008 12:47:16 PM | | Since this is in reference to our Troops and even mentions specific incidences, I would like to see verifiable citations for the Original Post contents prior to commenting in depth and I would hope others would want it verified. Thanks in advance. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/13/2008 3:09:45 PM |
Since this is in reference to our Troops and even mentions specific incidences, I would like to see verifiable citations for the Original Post contents prior to commenting in depth and I would hope others would want it verified. Thanks in advance.
Did ya ever hear of google? It's not just for republican propaganda searches.
So you can do your own references but I suggest you type in felons in the military you'll get pages and pages of references to do your own homework, I've already done mine.
But since you've asked, you can start googling:
Army Sgt. 1st Class Randal Ruby
Lance Cpl. Delano Holmes
Army Spc. Shane Gonyon
Then maybe you'll come back and answer my questions or state how you want to "kill the messengers" or at least call the press too liberal. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/13/2008 3:31:53 PM | I've heard something about this along the lines a few years ago where they Army unknowingly wounded up recruiting folks from racist groups (Aryan Brotherhood, etc.) as well as ex-cons.
As for how I stand, I personally do not have a problem with the issue at hand. They've served their time, and if they wish to serve their country, even better and they shouldn't be stopped from doing so. The objections to ex-cons in the Army startle me.
Besides, as much as people wish to carry out the death penalty for every damn thing under the sun these days, who's to object to them getting shot in an uneccessary war? Serves them right, eh? | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/13/2008 9:51:29 PM | The seriously mentally ill and criminals should NOT be soldiers or be qualified to serve in the military. We should not be letting criminals and the mentally ill serve, while perfectly qualified gay and lesbian soldiers are being kicked out for being born with a different sexual orientation than the majority! These folks WANT to serve, and are otherwise qualified. They should be allowed to serve and not have to hide who they are.
Our military also represents our country when they are in other parts of the world. Criminals in particular do not make our country look good, and we can look to Bush and its minions to see why those thugs should not have been allowed to be elected. Bush was an AWOL coward and had a criminal record. I believe that no one who has a criminal record should be allowed to become Commander in Chief, let alone be allowed to serve. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/13/2008 10:36:09 PM | Liars make me mad…but for this I will assume the OP did not mean to intentionally spread untruths, instead being a victim of his own ignorance. 1st off, I’m amazed he even started this thread, as this practice is actually extremely old and certainly pre-dates the modern times...
soldier on duty killing an Iraqi soldier by stabbing him 17 times with a bayonet for lighting a cigarette.
Yes this did occur. However the OP either intentionally or unintentionally failed to mention several very important contributing factors: When deployed in a combat-zone soldiers are forbidden to engage in activities at night, outdoors, that may give-off any illumination (light) – particularly smoking cigarettes. The reason for this is that a glowing cigarette in the dark can be a target for enemy snipers; in addition, Iraqi policeman / soldiers sympathetic to the insurgency have been known to use lit cigarettes as a form of signaling. As for the situation in discussion, here is what I remember of the article (Google it if you want):
An Iraqi soldier on guard (at night) with an American Marine lit a cigarette…
The American Marine asked the Iraqi to put the cigarette out…
Iraqi refuses…
American Marine insists he puts the cigarette out…
Iraqi refuses again…
American Marine knocks cigarette out of the Iraqi’s hand…
A fight ensues; Iraqi reaches for his firearm and is then stabbed to death by American Marine with a utility knife.
Do you care about our government sending rapists, thieves and crazy violent felons to represent us in foriegn countries?
There are no convicted rapists serving in the United States Military – and if the OP knew anything about how Recruiting and MEP’s (Military Entrance Processing) works, he would know this is an impossibility; Rape is not a crime that can be waived, period. And in addition, whether any criminal-conviction is waived or not really depends on the individual – character-references he’d be able to collect and his ASVAB score.
Do you think those honorable, sane soldiers want to be working next to someone like this?
HOW THE **** DO YOU KNOW WHAT SOLDIERS WANT? Soldiers want equipment that works and good CO’s who’ll get them home alive – enough said.
The seriously mentally ill and criminals should NOT be soldiers or be qualified to serve in the military.
Those who have a recorded history of mental illness aren't, they'd never make it thru MEP's...stuff like a history of going to theraphy, taking medication, suicide-attempts, etc...are all automatic DQ's; it is 'technically' possible to get such things waived, but its highly unlikely, but once again as mentioned above, it can depend on the individual.
Edit: As relating to gay soldiers: The reason that gays serving in the military is so unpopular with military brass, isn't because of any real bias against homosexuality, its because the top-brass feel that many gays simply want to concern themselves with making social-statements - and if your busy making a social-statement, your not doing your job. As soon as an individual puts 'being gay' ahead of being a Soldier / Marine / Sailor / Flyboy...theres gonna be problems. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/13/2008 11:05:18 PM | The government allows a similar type of thing to happen in the trucking industry. The big difference is that drivers are welcomed into big rigs AFTER they serve their time. This is because there is such a labor shortage, just as there is a troop shortage. Ex-cons are often times cheap labor.
While many ex-cons have killed people from behind the wheel of a big rig, it doesn't appear the occurrences are skewed in their direction.
Just one short article from Texas:
http://www.projo.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/transportation/stories/121006dnmetroadhazards.3319667.html
Sorry to go off-topic | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/14/2008 4:47:46 AM |
An Iraqi soldier on guard (at night) with an American Marine lit a cigarette…
The American Marine asked the Iraqi to put the cigarette out…
Iraqi refuses…
American Marine insists he puts the cigarette out…
Iraqi refuses again…
American Marine knocks cigarette out of the Iraqi’s hand…
A fight ensues; Iraqi reaches for his firearm and is then stabbed to death by American Marine with a utility knife.
Those who have a recorded history of mental illness aren't, they'd never make it thru MEP's...stuff like a history of going to theraphy, taking medication, suicide-attempts, etc...are all automatic DQ's
Delano Holmes used a bayonet (that doubles as a utility knife). He was hospitalized in HS for threatening suicide and twice caught using drugs before being deployed to Iraq.
Excerpts from his court martial where he was convicted.
During the struggle, Holmes felt Hassin reaching for his loaded AK-47, so he stabbed him with a bayonet that doubles as a utility knife that was attached to his jacket, Cook has said.
Prosecutors, however, said that Holmes killed the soldier and then set up the scene, firing the soldier's AK-47. Capt. Brett Miner said Holmes "mauled" Hassin with 17 stab wounds, 26 slashes and a chop to the face that nearly severed his nose.
"Not a scratch. Not a blemish. ... There is not a mark on him. There is no self-defense," Miner said. "There can be lawful killings during a time of war. This is not a lawful killing."
There are no convicted rapists serving in the United States Military –
I guess you missed the story about a US soldier raping an Iraqi teen and then killing her family and setting fire to their home to cover it up.
You didn't google Shane Gonyon twice convicted felon and arrested for trading sex for pot with a 13 year old girl.
HOW THE **** DO YOU KNOW WHAT SOLDIERS WANT? Soldiers want equipment that works and good CO’s who’ll get them home alive – enough said.
Well that's why I asked the QUESTION: "Do you think those honorable, sane soldiers want to be working next to someone like this?" | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/14/2008 5:05:18 AM |
Do you care about our government sending rapists, thieves and crazy violent felons to represent us in foreign countries? The kind of representation is in this case that of occupying a country and terrorizing its people. I think we should send nobody else but our worst offenders and of course the mentally ill, because that suits the work perfectly. I mean, if we are going to go around invading countries, oppressing people, ruling by the use of violence, might as well do it right with the best thugs we can get and the most feeble minded and unbalanced types who can more easily commit their charge. Besides, the army has traditions and this is one of them going way back. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/14/2008 5:50:18 AM |
and this is one of them going way back.
That'a right. Methamphetamine was created for military use, so those drug addicts have gone back to their roots. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/14/2008 5:52:37 AM |
He was hospitalized in HS for threatening suicide and twice caught using drugs before being deployed to Iraq.
MEP's cannot check Juvenile Records or Medical History - they can only go off of what the recruit tells them in those areas. The only way they would've known about any suicide attempts would be if the individual told them, or if it happened after he was 18 and the police were called, in that case a record of the incident would be available at the Police Department and would've shown up on a criminal-background check. I know its a big loophole, but legally doctors / theraphist have to respect their clients and cannot release an individuals medical history to anyone; and if you think they should, your gonna open up a whole new can-of-worms regarding privacy and confidentiality.
I guess you missed the story about a US soldier raping an Iraqi teen and then killing her family and setting fire to their home to cover it up.
And was he convicted? Is he still serving? And what I originally ment was that a man with a conviction of Rape on his criminal record CANNOT enlist in the US Military - Rape and Murder are crimes that cannot be waived.
Edit: People always find this hard be believe, but its not as easy to get into the Military as people think. Just about anything can DQ you and waivers are not guarranteed. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/14/2008 6:37:16 AM | And was he convicted? Is he still serving? And what I originally ment was that a man with a conviction of Rape on his criminal record CANNOT enlist in the US Military - Rape and Murder are crimes that cannot be waived.
Edit: People always find this hard be believe, but its not as easy to get into the Military as people think. Just about anything can DQ you and waivers are not guarranteed.
Really?
From Reuters:
Military Continues Recruiting Serious Ex-Felons While Discharging Qualified Gay Service...
Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:00pm EDT
New Data Shows Growing Number of Sexual Offenders, Kidnappers and Arsonists
Allowed to Serve
WASHINGTON, April 21 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The House Oversight and
Government Reform Committee today released data showing a dramatic rise in the
number of moral waivers issued to recruits joining the Army and Marine Corps.
The number of waivers granted to recruits convicted of manslaughter, rape,
kidnapping and making terrorist threats, doubled between 2006 and 2007.
During that same time, the Pentagon continued discharging service members
under the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" law banning lesbian, gay and bisexual
personnel from serving openly in the military. Pentagon officials released
the data following a request for the information from Committee Chairman,
Congressman Henry A. Waxman (D-CA).
"This data shines a bright light on the outrageousness and absurdity of 'Don't
Ask, Don't Tell,'" said Aubrey Sarvis, executive director of Servicemembers
Legal Defense Network (SLDN). "On the one hand, the Pentagon is discharging
highly-qualified, honest, law-abiding men and women because they are gay,
while on the other hand granting waivers to rapists, killers, kidnappers and
terrorists. Granting waivers for child molesters and rapists to serve while
discharging lesbians and gays is utter madness. Repealing 'Don't Ask, Don't
Tell' will reduce the need to grant felony waivers."
In 2006 the Pentagon discharged approximately 700 service members under "Don't
Ask, Don't Tell." According to the Department of Defense data, in 2007 the
Army granted 511 felony waivers, including: three soldiers convicted of
manslaughter, one soldier convicted of kidnapping or abduction, seven soldiers
convicted of rape, sexual assault, criminal sexual assault, incest or other
sex crimes, three soldiers convicted of indecent acts or liberties with a
child, and three soldiers convicted of terrorist threats including bomb
threats. Moral waivers are granted to personnel who do not otherwise qualify
for military service due to a criminal background.
………………..
To see the Department of Defense data on felony waivers, visit
oversight.house.gov
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS225420+21-Apr-2008+PRN20080421 | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/14/2008 6:38:01 AM | It is worth remembering that a significant percentage (60% I think) of soldiers who fight in conflicts such as Iraq, Afganistan, Vietnam or any other conflict suffer from some form of mental illness after they return. Over 80% of homeless people in London have been involved in the military and have seen some form of military action. They return to their home country suffering from a wide range of mental illnesses, broken homes & families, alcohol and other drug dependancies and are often violent and they are often unemployable.
Sending criminals and those with mental illnesses to these war zones should be less of a concern than those who return from there. Although we often refer to them quite rightly as true hero's, we offer them no support or councelling when they return and they are often left to try to survive here as criminals living and begging on the streets. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/14/2008 6:49:16 AM |
Really?
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS225420+21-Apr-2008+PRN20080421
whether any criminal-conviction is waived or not really depends on the individual – character-references he’d be able to collect, his ASVAB score, and any lobbying done by the Recruiter.
Believe me, a helluvalot more people were turned away for every waiver got.
And as far as gays, I answered that question:
The reason that gays serving in the military is so unpopular with military brass isn't because of any real bias against homosexuality, its because the top-brass feel that many gays simply want to concern themselves with making social-statements - and if your busy making a social-statement, your not doing your job. As soon as an individual puts 'being gay' ahead of being a Soldier / Marine / Sailor / Flyboy...theres gonna be problems.
'Don't Ask Don't Tell' would work wonders if people actually followed it...
Essentially what it means is that an enlisted-personnel will NEVER, EVER, be asked to identify their sexual orientation on any official grounds; but many homosexuals for some bizarre reason feel the need to alert everyone around that they're gay, and this goes back to being more concerned with making social-statements than doing their job. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/14/2008 7:36:32 AM | Ray, I think you are missing the point. But anyway, it's clear that some people with convictions for violent felonies are serving in the military. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is debatable....but clearly, it IS.
On the gays in the military thing: another topic, only referred to in my post because it's part of the reuters piece. But to me, I have to say that I don't believe for a second that the "reason" for anti-gay discrimination in the military is fear that gay soldiers will be more concerned with "making a statement" than with doing their job. Sorry, I'm calling BS on that one, whatever this or that recruiter might SAY.
And "Don't Ask Don't Tell" is a bigoted policy. Why should anyone be held responsible for cooperating in bigotry against himself (or herself)?
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/14/2008 8:20:13 AM |
And "Don't Ask Don't Tell" is a bigoted policy.
How so? They dont ask, you dont tell.
A CO doesn't give a shit whether the persons beneath him /her suck****or eat ****- he / she just wants them to do their job; and if their busy letting everyone know they're gay or straight then they arent doing their job. Theres nothing wrong with gays serving in the military as long as they're a soldier 1st, and gay 2nd; but the very notion behind 'Don't Ask Don't Tell' is that if people are made aware that your gay its because your telling them because no one is asking you - and that means that your putting 'being gay' in front of being a soldier.
Conclusion: Whether your gay or straight in the Armed Forces - keep it too yourself, because no one really cares. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/14/2008 8:29:13 AM | ^^^ oh yes, and I'm sure that soldiers don't sit around talking about women, talking about HOT women, making sexual jokes from a straight male POV, using lots of sexual innuendo from the same POV, on the assumption that the people they are communicating with are straight?
Get a grip. There's an ASSUMPTION of heterosexuality, and much flows from that assumption. If one man says to another man, "wow wouldn't you like to tap that," and the other man says "Not really"... Boom--don't ask don't tell is shot to hell.
You get all this hype about "bands of brothers," etc.....men serving together are supposed to be close, extremely close, right? Won't leave a brother--always have each other's backs. And you are telling me that it isn't discriminatory to have one set of people that have to hide something central to their own identity from their "brothers"--for fear of being thrown out?
Try reversing the situation, Ray--the military is predominantly gay and straight people, if exposed as straight, are kicked out. How long would you like to live your life, 24 hours a day, seeing the same people constantly, serving with them, "bonding" with them....all as a gay man?
Conclusion: Whether your gay or straight in the Armed Forces - keep it too yourself, because no one really cares.
Right. ha ha. If it were true that "nobody cares," there would be no need for a policy of either secrecy or expulsion. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/14/2008 8:48:10 AM |
And was he convicted? Is he still serving? And what I originally ment was that a man with a conviction of Rape on his criminal record CANNOT enlist in the US Military - Rape and Murder are crimes that cannot be waived.
Yes he and others were convicted.
FORT CAMPBELL, Ky. - A soldier convicted of rape and murder in an attack on an Iraqi teenager and her family was sentenced Saturday to 110 years in prison.
The sentence was part of a plea agreement attorneys for Pfc. Jesse Spielman had made with prosecutors that set the number of years he could serve in prison, regardless of the jury's recommendation.
The jury had recommended life with parole, a sentence under which he would have to wait longer for the possibility of parole. He will be eligible for parole after 10 years.
Story continues below ↓
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Spielman was convicted late Friday of rape, conspiracy to commit rape, housebreaking with intent to rape and four counts of felony murder.
Military prosecutors did not say Spielman took part in the rape or murders but alleged that he went to the house knowing what the others intended to do and served as a lookout.
Spielman, 23, of Chambersburg, Pa., received the longest sentence of four soldiers who have been convicted. Three other soldiers pleaded guilty under agreements with prosecutors for their roles in the assault and were given sentences ranging from five to 100 years.
And what I originally ment was that a man with a conviction of Rape on his criminal record CANNOT enlist in the US Military - Rape and Murder are crimes that cannot be waived. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/14/2008 8:55:17 AM | @a bit nomadic
^^^You will NEVER, EVER, EVER, be asked in a official context whether you are straight or gay in the Military. Please stop spinning what I'm writing. If an individual comes-out in the Military they are doing so on their own free-will; *repeat* an individual will never, ever, ever, ever be asked in an official context what their preference is. And you know why? Because no one gives a ****!!! Its not an issue. It's only MADE INTO an issue once an individual decides he / she is gonne put their sexuality ahead of their job. DO YOU WANNA WORK WITH SOMEONE WHO IS CONSTANTLY PUTTING THEIR SEXUALITY AHEAD OF THEIR JOB?? Do you put your sexuality ahead of your job?
Gays are welcome in the Military as long as they don't put their sexuality ahead of their job - which many seem interested in doing considering they have to let everyone know within a 10mile radius that they're gay. And for every gay that is discharged from the Armed Forces there are thousands more who aren't, and you know why? Because they don't put their sexuality ahead of their job, they're there to serve their country 1st and be gay 2nd - enough said.
@ MacKevinized
Good, they should've been shot. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/14/2008 9:36:07 AM | I find this thread interesting from a number of perspectives.
It would appear that our military has gotten so desperate that it has reverted to using the worst elements of society to bolster it's numbers. I suppose the point of this thread is to suggest that our military is inept, irresponsible and should be stopped.
I disagree.
Consider that military service provides structure, discipline, training and purpose to the enlisted and these factors are in many regards exactly what many living on the fringe of society are lacking so it could be that military service in a sense can function as a social rehabilitative program thereby salvaging people from an otherwise dysfunctional existence.
It would seem that buying into the premise of this thread would mean than one has little or no regard for the concept of rehabilitation or a persons ability to change let alone the value of our justice system. If it's true that once a criminal always a criminal or the mentally ill cannot ever function in a responsible manner then where does that leave us in terms of what to do with the vast numbers of such people.
Personally I feel that the military providing an opportunity for those who have broken the law or have some tenative hold on reality speaks to the greatness of our society. I do believe that boot camp and training for the most part weeds out those who can and those who can't and yes there are those who slip through the cracks just like any other place in society, nothing's perfect however the intent to not descriminate against individuals because of a rap sheet or a diagnosis is admirable.
Frankly it's surprising to me that OP would choose to herald such a negative spin on any societal aspect providing an opportunity to anyone on the edge given that OP has been the recipient of such simply because some who have completed the program have not been successful. | |
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