| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/25/2008 5:24:35 AM | I was reading the Bible Camp thread, and a line from the original OP caught my eye, something to the effect that the Mom signed an OK to the prayer thing at school.
Just down the road from me, there's a revivalist church that is having their annual three day kids revue. It is really entertaining with rappers and skits and such. Anyway, my neighbour told me she had to sign a bit of paper allowing prayer, and asked me my opinion. I silently began to recite the Lord's Prayer, and in a flash of insight, decided it could be construed as generic..
Our Father, who art in heaven
My father is the Great Spirit, or All that Is. No problem with that. My view is that yeah, He's in heaven, but everywhere else too, and it does go on to say this, I think.
Hallowed be thy name
Good with that too.
Thy kingdom come
I say it is already here, but maybe that's what it is saying? Need some help with this.
Thy will be done
Initially I had problems with this, but if I believe that I am part of All That Is and that All is Connected, would His will be my will?
on earth as it is in heaven
Just tells me His rules apply everywhere.
Give us this day our daily bread
I would add "please?". Just common courtesy.
Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us
Just good common sense there.
I was brought up old school Baptist, where scripture was beat into your head. I seem to remember something about forgiving our debts as well as our debtors. (That Jesus was a good guy) I have to wonder why that wasn't included in this prayer. Anyone care to speculate?
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil
At first glance, it would appear that God is leading us to commit wrongdoing, but with just a small change in perception, it could be construed as a plea to help us avoid temptation. "Evil". At first glance, it looks like "please protect me and mine", and it's all good. But my own personal concept of evil is now about levels of understanding, so I think this may be a plea to help me understand the way the world works with compassion.
For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, forever and ever, Amen
Just tells me everything is His, and as a child of "Our Father", I share in it, for all time.
I often recite the Indian Prayer, and one of the lines is "May my ears be sharp to hear your many voices". Maybe my shift in perception is allowing me to see this prayer in a new light? I know my disdain for the dogma has closed my mind to a lot of stuff, as I've also been looking at Psalm 23 in a new light too; been noodling it about for the last three weeks, but that's another story....
I guess my question is, if a person had not ever heard one word of Christian dogma and were to hear this prayer, and only given the information that is was written two millenia ago, what would they think?
Cheers, Raven | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/25/2008 8:01:53 AM | When I was in school, the question of school prayer came up. The population of the school I was in, as it happened was about 50% Jewish, so they were searching for a solution that wouldn't offend anyone. So they settled on the Lord's Prayer.
Well, of course it caused a fuss. The name is the Lord's Prayer because Jesus originated it. It's not that the content is offensive. Far from it. But it is far from the neutral prayer that they intended. I still wonder whether they were terribly naive or really had an axe to grind.
As for actual content, there is nothing in the Lord's prayer that offends me as a Jew. Why should it? In fact, aside from the other details, it was written by a Jewish man.  | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/25/2008 1:20:25 PM | | There should never be official prayer in schools. Schools are a place of acquiring scientifically valid education. If someone wants to be part of official prayer or learn about religious nonsense, that is what churches and other religious buildings are for. | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/25/2008 2:29:20 PM |
There should never be official prayer in schools. Yes. The incident I related above happened many years ago, before this principle was established.
As we look back on today's separation of church and state, please remember how precious it is, and how fragile. There was little of the concept in past years. Church and religious people, being dedicated to their repective religions, gave little thought to respecting other faiths, let alone secularism.
Today, the churches are as strong as ever, living largely in a society that fosters separation of church and state. Yes, they bitterly complain, but I don't see them going out of business. In most American towns there is a church on every corner. The surest way to make a buck, as the Scientologists have proven, is to be a religion.
Nevertheless, I respect religions. I just feel that homes and churches are adequate for them. | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/25/2008 3:37:32 PM | Muslims have an equivalent to the Lord's Prayer, it translates:
Praise be to God, Lord of all
The merciful, the beneficent
King of judgement
To you do I pray, to you do I turn for help
Lead me on the straight path,
The path of the blessed,
Save me from the path of those who anger you,
and those who go astray.
The translation is as close to literal as I can get in English; the 'save me from' part doesn't literally read that way, but it is the inference and intent of the words used, which if literally translated wouldn't make sense in the way they were intended. Arabic isn't a Roman language. It frequently doesn't translate well.
Pretty generic, too. Almost forgot to mention. Both prayers are considered by many to have significant numerical (I did not say numerological) meaning. Long story short, each prayer in its native language when properly recited is supposed to act as a key to unlock communication between earthlings and the Divine.
In both cases it's not only the words and their meanings, but the number of times your lips touch that matter. Crazy, huh? | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/26/2008 8:03:12 AM | | hello Singular Intellect. how do you feel about schools teaching secular and religious thought, that way students learn both ways of thinking. | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/26/2008 8:09:12 AM | ^^ Why not teach the poor little buggas to think for themselves instead?
Its an old sales trick to present 2 possibilities
It makes people think they have to choose one of them
And they usually do
I would have a problem with indoctrinating the children into choosing between the 2 choices someone else decided they should have
They still arent choosing!
ie making their own informed and impartial decisions | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/26/2008 9:26:37 AM |
hello Singular Intellect. how do you feel about schools teaching secular and religious thought, that way students learn both ways of thinking
It is sometimes called the fallacy of the false dichotomy....there are other options than just the secular and religious ones....as champrins has pointed out.
In my view...equal weight need not be given to both sides of the religious / secular equation when it comes to a childs education in a school context. Children are hard pressed learning the 3R's without adding a 4th R. | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/26/2008 10:18:08 AM | | I don't see any harm in religion being taught in a comparative way, but as with the handling of any toxic substance, care should be taken. No stating as fact that Man is a fallen creature and we are all sinners, then pushing the blood sacrifice guilt trip of "Jesus died for our sins, believe or be damned" claptrap. I think that stuff should be X rated and only available to consenting adults who have formed some kind of critical faculty. | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/27/2008 8:18:53 AM |
But it is far from the neutral prayer that they intended.
See, when I quickly started reciting it in my head, I could not find fault in the words themselves.
In fact, aside from the other details, it was written by a Jewish man.
lol, cute.
There should never be official prayer in schools. Schools are a place of acquiring scientifically valid education. If someone wants to be part of official prayer or learn about religious nonsense, that is what churches and other religious buildings are for.
I agree. But for the most part, I was asking if anyone else felt that this prayer could be a generic prayer.
Muslims have an equivalent to the Lord's Prayer, it translates:
Praise be to God, Lord of all
The merciful, the beneficent
King of judgement
To you do I pray, to you do I turn for help
Lead me on the straight path,
The path of the blessed,
Save me from the path of those who anger you,
and those who go astray.
Thank you for that, and it is very serene.
Long story short, each prayer in its native language when properly recited is supposed to act as a key to unlock communication between earthlings and the Divine.
In both cases it's not only the words and their meanings, but the number of times your lips touch that matter. Crazy, huh?
Can I ask that you explain this? First time I have heard of such a concept, except being ordered to say a number of Hail Mary's as a form of punishment.
I would have a problem with indoctrinating the children into choosing between the 2 choices someone else decided they should have
They still arent choosing!
ie making their own informed and impartial decisions
Agreed again, but if a parent must sign a paper allowing their children to recite the Lord's Prayer in a religious setting, is it the dogma behind the prayer or the actual words that are offensive?
I seem to remember something about forgiving our debts as well as our debtors. (That Jesus was a good guy) I have to wonder why that wasn't included in this prayer. Anyone care to speculate?
It just seems to me in this day and age, where there are so many foreclosures, bankruptcies and such, that this forgotten bit is more than appropos than ever! Why was it exempted, I still ask?
Cheers, Raven | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/27/2008 12:34:39 PM | hello Singular Intellect. how do you feel about schools teaching secular and religious thought, that way students learn both ways of thinking.
Well, for starters, our children are recieving secular instruction already.
The only thing missing is spiritual instruction. I'll make you a bet, my spiritual friend. I vote we devote one hour a day of "religious study", to include both the Christian doctrine and the religion of Islam. What says you? 
(Lets have a friendly religious how down at the public schools and watch the teachers go totally mad) LOL | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/27/2008 1:44:37 PM | | We used to recite the Lords Prayer at school in morning assembly. It was part of a dull daily ritual, that was occasionally livened up by a pupil fainting in the hall where assembly took place, and having to be dragged into an adjoining room to recover. I used to wonder if some of these physical collapses were feigned in an attempt to escape a dreary twenty minutes of shuffling from side to side, trying to look interested. Can't say I ever thought too much about the words to the prayer. The whole thing was just an accepted ritual before lessons. We would also sing a hymn. Maybe, He who Would Valiant Be or, Jerusalem. The words to the latter were written by William Blake. I dunno who wrote the tune, but it's a good un. | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/27/2008 3:45:18 PM |
hello Singular Intellect. how do you feel about schools teaching secular and religious thought, that way students learn both ways of thinking.
Unacceptable. How about not teaching religious thought to children in public schools, period. If parents so badly want their kids brainwashed by religion, then send them to private religious schools, and/or ensure they attend their churches/religious locations.
There is one reason and one reason alone that any religious individual argues for religious teachings in public schools...they want their particular faith to be taught to children who are not their own.
And which religion, anyway? Islam? Christianity? Hinduism? Buddhism? Judaism? All of the above?
The only option I'd laughingly support would be all of them, because then we could watch as all of the different religious groups get into a uproar about other faiths being taught there. They only want theirs taught in public schools. | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/27/2008 3:48:38 PM | And which religion, anyway? Islam? Christianity? Hinduism? Buddhism? Judaism? All of the above?
Why not?
The only option I'd laughingly support would be all of them, because then we could watch as all of the different religious groups get into a uproar about other faiths being taught there. They only want theirs taught in public schools.
*clears throat* I am a Christian, and I have already suggested that. So your theory just went waaay south. (Like Mexico south) | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/27/2008 3:52:47 PM |
Why not?
*clears throat* I am a Christian, and I have already suggested that. So your theory just went waaay south. (Like Mexico south)
In that case, I'd accept so long as the Pastafarian Faith (www.venganza.org) gets taught as well, along with any other faith under the moon.
With any luck, there will be so many faiths being taught there won't be room for silly things like mathematics, physics, computers...you know, all that other useless stuff. | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/27/2008 3:54:09 PM | Unacceptable. How about not teaching religious thought to children in public schools, period. If parents so badly want their kids brainwashed by religion, then send them to private religious schools, and/or ensure they attend their churches/religious locations.
yes,if anybody is going to do any brainwashing here it will be the education system.no other brainwasshing is exceptable. | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/27/2008 3:59:28 PM |
In that case, I'd accept so long as the Pastafarian Faith (www.venganza.org) gets taught as well, along with any other faith under the moon.
Why not, seems absolutely groovy. (Course the children may become more intelligent after learning of all things, spiritual and secular, and therefore recognize when theyre being patronized...)
With any luck, there will be so many faiths being taught there won't be room for silly things like mathematics, physics, computers...you know, all that other useless stuff.  Ive suggested an hour course out of 8 hours of study.
Yeah, like no extra time will be left for all that useless crap.
(How long does gym take anyway?)  | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/27/2008 4:03:03 PM |
yes,if anybody is going to do any brainwashing here it will be the education system.no other brainwasshing is exceptable.
Because as everyone knows, learning to read, spell and count consitutes 'brainwashing'. | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/27/2008 4:05:31 PM | Because as everyone knows, learning to read, spell and count consitutes 'brainwashing'
if that is we learned in shool it would be a pretty poor education. | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/27/2008 4:08:07 PM |
Ive suggested an hour course out of 8 hours of study.
Yeah, like no extra time will be left for all that useless crap.
(How long does gym take anyway?)
So what you're suggesting is a class where any and all religions can be taught with no bias, right?
I love that suggestion; only an athiest is a unbiased party when it comes to any religion, therefore the only type of candidate acceptable for the teaching position. We need more athiest teachers. | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/27/2008 4:09:48 PM |
Because as everyone knows, learning to read, spell and count consitutes 'brainwashing'
if that is we learned in shool it would be a pretty poor education.
If you see tears in my eyes, it's because of the enormous amount of laughing I'm doing at the absolute irony of your reply. | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/28/2008 9:17:01 AM | So what you're suggesting is a class where any and all religions can be taught with no bias, right? Void of bias? If the instructor was a nonreligious man, than yes. (Admittedly, I would be unable to teach Christianity void of proclivity, while HRH QUEEN B would have an equally difficult time teaching a monotheistic Abrahamic religion.
I love that suggestion; only an atheist is a unbiased party when it comes to any religion, therefore the only type of candidate acceptable for the teaching position. We need more atheist teachers. If you belive that atheist are nonreligious, than you clearly are not a true atheist.
Secular Humanism has been recognized as a religion by the US supreme court and, In my opinion, is the most bigoted religion of all, for its goal is to exterminate all other religions. | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/28/2008 9:44:54 AM |
How about not teaching religious thought to children in public schools, period.
I imagine they could stop teaching "The Golden Rule." They have already forgotton how to credit its author.
Meanwhile, the could introduce "Moby**** as a book by Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes. | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/28/2008 4:51:23 PM |
If you belive that atheist are nonreligious, than you clearly are not a true atheist.
You obviously don't know what 'atheist' means, then.
Perhaps you could amuse everyone by explaining what you think the term atheist means?
Secular Humanism has been recognized as a religion by the US supreme court and, In my opinion, is the most bigoted religion of all, for its goal is to exterminate all other religions.
Yes, and I'm sure they're well on to their way to accepting bald as a hair color, too.
As to atheism being bent on exterminating all religion, perhaps you'd care to justify this assertion?
Perhaps you could point me in the direction of the 'atheist' bible that demands it followers to 'have no gods before none!', or 'all non atheists shall suffer eternally in the pool of non existence! | |
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| The Lord's Prayer
Posted: 7/29/2008 4:22:08 PM |
So what you're suggesting is a class where any and all religions can be taught with no bias, right? Void of bias? If the instructor was a nonreligious man, than yes. (Admittedly, I would be unable to teach Christianity void of proclivity, while HRH QUEEN B would have an equally difficult time teaching a monotheistic Abrahamic religion.
Sorry if I'm a bit confused here. I thought that HRH claimed to be a Muslim. Islam is a monotheistic Abrahamic religion. So what it should be difficult for her to teach without bias would be any NON monotheistic Abrahamic religions, pretty much the same as a Christian or a Jew.
As far as the U.S. Supreme Court recognizing secular humanism as a religion that's a fallacious appeal to authority, and frankly IMHO not a very good one; certainly not expert in the arena of theology, they're lawyers.
You can't take religion out of the teacher (the U.S.S.R. and China tried it, didn't work). But you can train the teacher to be professional enough to attempt to leave their bias out of their teaching. Religion is already taught in school. You can major in it. It's called Theology. Trust me on that one. | |
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