| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 7/29/2008 1:05:48 PM | I just finished watching a programme on The Neanderthal Genome Project. I found it really, really interesting. They found that some homo sapiens genes like FOXP2, which is apparently linked to being able to speak in a complex language, are also in Neanderthals. Since Neanderthals are supposed to come from a different evolutionary branch, these evolutionary anthropologists were very surprised.
The conclusions of these scientists were that Neanderthals had sex with us, and we got many genes, like FOXP2, from them. They also concluded that it is quite possible that Neanderthals never died out, and instead simply mated with homo sapiens, and became part of our gene pool.
However, what I found fascinating, was their conclusion that of all the genes that could have come from Neanderthals, they found FOXP2. Practically every human on the planet can communicate, even deaf people, blind people, and mute people, can all communicate. So we all must have FOXP2, or at least very nearly all of us. But surely that means that we all descended from humans who descended from Neanderthals, doesn't it?
Doesn't that mean that our ancestors were Neanderthals? Maybe not ALL our ancestors, but everyone has at least ONE Neanderthal ancestor, right?
What do you think? Do you think our grandmothers were Neanderthals? | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 7/29/2008 1:39:14 PM |
What do you think? Do you think our grandmothers were Neanderthals?
I can't speak for everyone, but my greatgreatgrandfather on my father's mother's side was definitely a Neanderthal. He was a potato farmer in Ireland around 1844. | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 7/29/2008 3:53:28 PM | The wiki post seems to explain it best:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_Genome_Project
From what I've read, there wasn't any cross-breeding between humans and Neanderthals although it does make sense that they might have cross bred. It sure does sound like much more work/research needs to be performed. | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 7/29/2008 4:01:46 PM | The TV prog sounds interesting scorpio. Wish I'd known about it earlier. Is there any way to conjure the thing up from the depths of webland? I've been checking out BBC iplayer but it only covers Beeb stuff.
I consoled myself with watching a good ten minute interview with Neanderthal expert Dr Chris Stringer on Richard Dawkins.net. He said that within the next year we should have a complete Neanderthal genome, enabling a three way comparison to be made between us, chimpanzees and Neanderthals. He also comments that the data coming through so far indicates very little evidence of interbreeding between the two human species, and also suggests a much earlier divergence date for Neanderthals from our common ancestor than previously thought, of maybe as long as 800,000 years ago. | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 7/29/2008 5:16:54 PM | [qu0te]They found that some homo sapiens genes like FOXP2, which is apparently linked to being able to speak in a complex language, are also in Neanderthals. Since Neanderthals are supposed to come from a different evolutionary branch, these evolutionary anthropologists were very surprised.
Very interesting. I would take this to mean that our most recent common ancestor had this gene. | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 7/29/2008 9:04:48 PM | @ OP
Doesn't that mean that our ancestors were Neanderthals? Maybe not ALL our ancestors, but everyone has at least ONE Neanderthal ancestor, right?
...first of all, there is no direct proof that "foxp2" alone is what is responsible for our ability to communicate as you described..............for all we know, this gene group could have been present in most hominids that preceded the neanderthals and the Home erecti/sapiens lineage
...the other question is: how many specimens were sampled for this gene?...where was it extracted....was the same gene(s) extracted from different specimens by "blinded" independant researchers?.
But surely that means that we all descended from humans who descended from Neanderthals, doesn't it?
....if anybody had superior means of communication it surely was the early homo-sapiens, whose socially advanced skills and capabilities enabled them to co-exist and relate to one another for their own survival.......and eventually displace all other hominids!
What do you think? Do you think our grandmothers were Neanderthals?
i doubt it, but i'd be willing to bet that this world woulda been way better off if the neanderthals had come out on top! | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 7/30/2008 7:02:23 AM | The whole idea that neanderthals "died" out because they were "assimilated" within the humans gene pool has been put forth before. Instead of being wiped out by violence, their species absorbed by "love -ins". Perhaps more a combination of the two.
Take a look at the sexual practices of mankind over the ages. IF there was no women available, they would use prisoners, each other, animals, etc.
Say a group of ancient men has decided to wipe out a group of neanderthals. If away from home for a long period, perhaps they did capture and have sexual relations with a female neaderthal. But to actually stop and raise a family? {shrug}...knowing the attitudes of some modern animal lovers, this could well have happened. Or, a human captured by neanderthals, or raised by them, or nursed back to health, or even just staying the winter with them while travelling. Any number of reasons why or how this mixing of the genetic pools could have happened. Perhaps the whole "bigfoot" idea is actually true...but they are neanderthal holdouts.
Chimps have something like 97% of their genetic structure in common with mankind, yet cannot successfully breed with them. Yet a rabbit and a cat can, and produce offspring. (Wonder what that experiment entailed...lol!)
Although the neanderthal had "religious" ideas and a sense that there was an afterlife, they may well have been "human" in the idea that certain close knit groups have common characteristics. A "sub-tribe" of humans, and we just haven't recognized that yet.
Of course, all this study on ancient genomes should be taking a backseat to the study of current human genomes. We can use the information far better now for our own purposes rather than studying an outdated and wiped out species. It has been said that a culture with no history has no future though. | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 7/30/2008 11:27:46 AM |
The TV prog sounds interesting scorpio. Wish I'd known about it earlier. Is there any way to conjure the thing up from the depths of webland? I've been checking out BBC iplayer but it only covers Beeb stuff. Google "sex and the neanderthals". You might get lucky. | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 7/30/2008 4:50:39 PM | I swear I dated a chick who was a direct descendant of a fish once.
As for the disappearance of Neanderthals? It's simply a matter of a lower level of reproduction/fertility. It could also be because of their smaller brain which would lead to a higher mortality rate. If species are in direct competition, it wouldn't take long (geologically speaking) for the one to go extinct. I can't remember exactly where I saw this but made sense to me at the time. | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 7/30/2008 5:21:26 PM |
We furthermore find that in Neandertals, these changes lie on the common modern human haplotype, which previously was shown to have been subject to a selective sweep. These results suggest that these genetic changes and the selective sweep predate the common ancestor (which existed about 300,000–400,000 years ago) of modern human and Neandertal populations. From Krause et al., Current Biology, Vol 17, 1908-1912, 06 November 2007
In other words, Neanderthals and Homo-Sapiens had a fast-talking common ancestor - if you really believe in this funky evolution stuff. | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 7/30/2008 6:39:31 PM | Neanderthals had much larger brains than Cro-Magnon's (Homo-Sapiens actually).. less in the cerebral cortex but much more in the occipital lobe which governs sight and memory.. we aren't sure if they had a spoken language though.
They were also built much better for cold weather/environmental hardships and were very much stronger, heavier denser bones and a larger musculature.. though a bit shorter than we are. | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 7/30/2008 6:48:54 PM | Neanderthals had much larger brains than Cro-Magnon's (Homo-Sapiens actually).. less in the cerebral cortex but much more in the occipital lobe which governs sight and memory.. we aren't sure if they had a spoken language though.
They were also built much better for cold weather/environmental hardships and were very much stronger, heavier denser bones and a larger musculature.. though a bit shorter than we are.
Yep that's true. I wonder whether with increased head size and denser bones, birth must have cause huge risk for both the mother and the child. High birth mortality rates might put the whole neanderthal species at risk. Our brain size is pretty well set by maximum skull size that fits through the birth canal. | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 7/30/2008 7:02:31 PM | Interesting thought...
did they reach their maximum and die out due to infant/maternal mortality? It's a possibility. They must have had very wide skeletons.. and pelvis bones... | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 7/31/2008 6:36:39 AM |
did they reach their maximum and die out due to infant/maternal mortality? It's a possibility. They must have had very wide skeletons.. and pelvis bones
I guess what I am wondering is when there exist very little stress on species infant/maternal morality doesn't present as much of a threat of extinction, but when there are stresses such as climate change, competition for food, war,disease,etc it can be the formula for disaster. | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 7/31/2008 9:03:18 AM |
Neanderthals had much larger brains than Cro-Magnon's (Homo-Sapiens actually)..
Neandertals (correct modern spelling) -Homo sapiens neanderthalensis ARE Homo Sapiens.
From a University anthropology website:
Comparison of Cranial Capacities
range (cm3) average (cm3)
chimpanzees 300-500 ----
australopithecines 390-545 ----
Homo habilis 509-752 610
Homo erectus 750-1250 970
Homo heidelbergensis 1100-1390 1206
Neandertals 1300-1750 1450
modern Homo sapiens 900-1880 1345
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: There is a considerable range in body size among modern Homo sapiens, including large numbers of small people. Subsequently, the average brain size is smaller than would initially seem likely. However, the average for some modern populations (especially European and most African ones) is slightly larger than that of Neandertals.
Sperm whale brains and elephant brains weighs is about 5 times more than human brains. It's the other 'brain' where size matters! | |
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allno
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Joined: 4/27/2006
Msg: 16 | |
| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 7/31/2008 6:51:27 PM | If Julie Brown were around, there would be cross breeding.
"When I need somethin' to help me unwind
I find a six foot baby with a one track mind
Smart guys are nowhere, they make demands
Give me a moron with talented hands
I go bar-hopping and they say last call
I start shopping for a Neanderthal"
Carry on! | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 8/2/2008 6:36:42 AM | I am looking for a sincere, honest, beautiful, young, sweet and communicative, exciting and interesting Neandertahl lady | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 8/2/2008 12:16:29 PM | "Maybe not ALL our ancestors, but everyone has at least ONE Neanderthal ancestor, right?"
After attending my family reunion a couple of weeks ago, I am inclined to agree. | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 8/2/2008 3:27:43 PM | You all joke about the supposed barbaric and uncouthly nature of our primate cousins, and it is funny, indeed  but I think it's a little misplaced. There is little reason to believe that the H. neanderthalis was any more of a brute than H. Sapiens.
They burried their dead, painted on cave walls, and developed cooperative tactics for bringing down prey. Their cranial cavities were just as large as ours and in some cases even larger suggesting a comparable cognitive skill. Physiologically there were significant differences, which is why we're here and they are not. They were cold weather specialists, while WE are generalists and can survrive pretty much anywhere hot or cold.
There is another explanation for how the gene is present in both H. neanderthalis and H. sapiens: the common ancestor for both species possessed the gene as well. I'm not oppossed to the idea that they copulated with our species to produce offspring with traits of both species. It's no insult to me. I mean we are what we are, right? I'm just offering an alternative theory that would explain why ALL H. spaiens and ALL H. neanderthalis would possess the gene. | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 9/15/2008 3:52:47 PM | | This is more information to support the whole "primordial ooze"concept.It does not necessarily mean that our ancesters were neanderthals,check out how mutch dna humans have in common with sea sponges(it's something like 40%). | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 9/15/2008 10:06:25 PM | | Fox2P is a transcription factor that's involved in neural development in humans, birds, zebrafish, etc etc. So it really isn't too surprising that it's in the Neanderthals! | |
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| The Neanderthal Genome Project
Posted: 9/16/2008 1:18:30 AM | They burried their dead, painted on cave walls, and developed cooperative tactics for bringing down prey. Their cranial cavities were just as large as ours and in some cases even larger suggesting a comparable cognitive skill. [/post]
Their brains were actually bigger than ours, but structured in a different way. We have more neocortical mass than they did...which is tied to higher faculty cognitive functioning, like say the capacity for language. Our capacity for language and language-based learning sets us apart from the animals. | |
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