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| | Adam & Eve & the snakePage 1 of 5 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) | So.....if Adam & Eve were tempted by Satan in the guise of a snake and thus the snake was punished to crawl on it's belly as punishment, the question begs to be asked: How did the snake move before deceiving Adam?????
And, why would an infallible, omniscient god punish snakes for something they had no choice or control over; where the blames rests with Satan?
Let the games begin and get yer popcorn ready! | |
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/6/2008 8:39:45 PM | popcorn is made,kicks back waiting,waiting...hmmmm,I be craving apples. | |
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/6/2008 9:27:48 PM | Snake: "oh man I made God mad - I'm so gonna burn for this one."
God: "You are cursed more than any cattle. You are cursed to..."
Snake: (I'm so screwed so screwed so screwed)
God: "...to crawl on your belly for the rest of your life."
Snake: "But I already cra...I mean...OH NO, God that's like so totally a cruel curse I mean like whoa you that's like such a bad punishment for me, seriously."
Man I love the bible. Now that my brain is free from its clutches it is enormously entertaining reading material. | |
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/6/2008 10:13:25 PM | if the snakes was really Satan in disguise, and Satan is a demonic supernatural presence second only to god in his powers, then how could poor Eve...a mere mortal in childlike mind, possibly rebutt the evil supernatural powers of this demonic presence when he seduced her into taking a bite of the fruit? Keeping in mind of course that snakes are known to hypnotize their prey into doing whatever the snake wants them to do. So heres poor Eve...naked and blond...sashaying her butt thru the garden...minding her own business when along comes this evil, demonic snake with supernatural powers and he hypnotizes Eve into taking a bite of the fruit!
And we're supposed to blame Eve for this??!! what was she supposed to do? just simply say the magic words..."Begone demon...for I have free will and I choose not to disobey god...even tho I have childlike innocence and have no clue what disobeying means" "And even tho you have supernatural demonic powers that I cant posibly defend against, all I have to do is "Say No to Demons" Adam should have gotten her a T-shirt.
Thats about as believable as waking up TinkerBell by clapping your hands! "Wake up Tink, Wake up!! | |
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/6/2008 10:28:02 PM | snake, Adam, Eve, garden of Eden, god...
they must have been smokin some powerful weed to come up with stuff like this
then there's the huge population of the world that really takes this stuff ...literally?
must be mass hysterics | |
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/6/2008 10:45:54 PM |
before knocking it you should all get your facts right
and what "facts" might you be talking about? | |
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/6/2008 10:53:26 PM |
How did the snake move before deceiving Adam?????
allrighty then...I figure the snake was just hanging in the tree as if it were a part of the tree.
the title of this thread sounds kinda sexy | |
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Vancer
| | Joined: 10/29/2006
Msg: 9 | |
| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/6/2008 11:05:06 PM | Yeah, I also thought the snake was up to that point hanging on the tree.
I thought it was just meant to be colourful metaphors. Designed to get people's attention so that they'll stop and listen to the whole story out of curiosity. | |
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/6/2008 11:37:44 PM | And, why would an infallible, omniscient god punish snakes for something they had no choice or control over; where the blames rests with Satan?
Ehh...sounds like god might have been reading too many "nice guy" threads where the blame is put on anything and anyone but where it should be if you ask me.
That's right...let's put the blame on that snake...no wait...let's put the blame on that eve wimmin....no wait...I created that perfect wimmin in MY perfect image so how how could I blame my own perfect creation....oh god help me I'm so confuse...oh wait I AM god....oh jesus have mercy...oh wait... I AM jesus too....or is jesus me....oh god what do I do now...think man THINK...okay okay I'm thinking......eve...snake...evil....eve....eve... ev...il...eve....evil.....eve = wimmin...eve = evil...god...go...od... god...good...god = man....man = good....wimminz = evil...that's it my god I think I got it!!!
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/7/2008 6:31:38 AM | We must conclude that serpents (Bible doesn't call them "snakes") had legs and the ability to speak in a language humans understood. Either serpents spoke "Human" or humans spoke "Serpent".
God punished all sepents because one allowed Satan to possess it. Just like God punishes all humans because one disobeyed a direct order (never mind the part that the Tree of Knowledge allowed humans to know the difference between Right and Wrong and it wasn't until after sinning could they know that disobedience was "wrong"). That's just the way God is!
The serpent is not Satan, just a creature that was possessed by the Evil One so that Eve could be communicated with and deceived. Since God punished the serpent, it follows that the serpent also must have free will and knew that allowing Satan to use it as a communication tool was "wrong". Serpents must have religion too!
The punishment for serpents was to lose their legs. We can conclude that they still have the ability to speak "Human".
Or, we can dismiss this entire line of thought, and see the story as a metaphor.
Could it be an attempt to discredit the Caananites and other religions that had a female diety (which used fruit, particularly apples, to represent the female breast and snakes, symbolizing a circle of infinity ( a snake eating it's tail)? Nah!  | |
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/7/2008 6:35:09 AM | you ask, OP,
So.....if Adam & Eve were tempted by Satan in the guise of a snake and thus the snake was punished to crawl on it's belly as punishment, the question begs to be asked: How did the snake move before deceiving Adam?????
And, why would an infallible, omniscient god punish snakes for something they had no choice or control over; where the blames rests with Satan?
I do not know, but I have my thoughts and so offer this as an optional perspective....part of this answer I am borrowing from another post I wrote about nudity, which touched by some on the adam and eve story, and in posting there, I offered my present day thoughts about that story, and now add thoughts about the snake too....or 'serpent' is I believe the 'truer' translation of the hebrew words that originally wrote the bible.
To premise, I do not believe the story of Adam and Eve and the snake was about satan and sin at all....here is what I think in excerpts, as I said, from my other post -
"....I too was raised with the story from the bible about Adam and Eve and honestly, from how I understood it as a child from my teachers in hebrew school, it only seemed to make sense to me in a way as if God was a 'dirty old man' and before they became self conscious and were naked, all was fine....but once they covered themselves up, then God banished them from the Garden of Eden.
Now that is a really twisted view, and yet, as a child, I could not make sense of the story at all, for as far as I knew from everything in school, anything from the 'Tree of Knowledge' sounds like a gift to me and must be wonderful....and yet the Adam and Eve story made it sound like evil. And if knowledge was evil, why was I in school being taught it?!
And so, along with most everything else that did not make sense to me in the bible, I sought to find what did spiritually....and now my view of that story is a little different....
....My understanding now is The Tree of Knowledge definitely was a gift, though it did not cause Adam and Eve shame, but they became aware of themselves - they became self conscious - meaning conscious of self. Before they ate, they were in paradise and a totally divine state with God - one with God....but when they ate, they became self conscious and now had another state of consciousness so they could now look at the divine state they had been in with awareness....it's like now they knew where they had been. It's almost like if you're in an all white room, you won't know you're in there without stepping into a darker room to see the contrast. Or the idea of you know happiness because you know sadness, and vice versa.
So, now Adam and Eve, having eaten, now became aware of themselves and now realized there were states of 'being' that were not all divine anymore. Why did God banish them? I think because symbolically (remember it's all symbolism, imo), symbolically, God had to send them on their journey to find that divine part of themselves again - this time consciously.....so they would really know it. (which, imo, is the journey humanity is still on - re-discovering and re-membering consciously that divine state of unity with God and each other.)"
So no Satan, no sin, everything happened exactly as it was meant to, in my opinion.
Regarding the serpent - my thoughts turn to this - there is in Eastern traditions this concept of Kundalini - the idea that in the human body there is a channel that rises from the perinneum, up the center of the back to the pineal gland in the head, down through the roof of the mouth to the heart, solar plexus, lower belly and back to re-connect in the perinneum.....basically this channel touches all the Chakras or energy centers (vortexes) in the body.
What I have been taught is this channel can be visualized as a serpent, or snake, connected in one circle with its head biting its tail located in the perinneum - the base chakra. I'm sorry this all sounds so Eastern and 'out there' but I believe all Spiritual paths are speaking the same 'truths'.....including the bible with eastern and western, northern and southern spiritual beliefs, if one just adjusts one's focus a bit. :)
Anyway, another aspect of the Kundalini idea is it connects the lowest chakra -sexual pole - with the highest chakra - spiritual pole.....and so the belief of the Kundalini rising is a very big thing for it is almost like it is connecting and turning on energetically all these important centers of energy in the human body - unifying us.
SO, the serpent of the bible and the Adam and Eve story was not evil at all - as it seemed to me even as a child growing up - yes it was the temptor, the temptress, but it was leading Eve and Adam ultimately to walk the path to find Spiritual Truth - to connect their sexual aspects with their spiritual aspects God blessed us all with. One other view was unifying our internal energy paths connect our roots with the Earth energies coming up from below with those coming down through us from above.
Sadly, imo, as long as the story was interpreted as an evil, sinful 'lesson' never to succumb to the tempations of snakes and serpents and seductresses, it is losing the very soul and blessing and beauty of the story.
The snake moved before Adam and Eve as it was created to - to be hidden and silent most of the time, and to appear for those who are seeking its knowledge and path. It is hardly punishment for the snake - it is a divine gift and blessing it holds such honor.(imo) | |
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/7/2008 7:39:57 AM | So how many *snakes with legs* fossils have been found to date? | |
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/7/2008 7:55:46 AM | ^^^^^
I believe that would be my dead first husband
So, now Adam and Eve, having eaten, now became aware of themselves and now realized there were states of 'being' that were not all divine anymore. Why did God banish them? I think because symbolically (remember it's all symbolism, imo), symbolically, God had to send them on their journey to find that divine part of themselves again - this time consciously.....so they would really know it. (which, imo, is the journey humanity is still on - re-discovering and re-membering consciously that divine state of unity with God and each other.)"
So no Satan, no sin, everything happened exactly as it was meant to, in my opinion.
^^what she said.
Cheers, Raven | |
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yna6
| | Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 15 | |
| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/7/2008 1:27:58 PM | In answer to the real question...how did the serpent get around...I think it may have actually been a tree dweller. It was condemned to crawl on the ground, eating dust with its food...which was a mark of degradation during those times. Not to mention getting its head crushed by man, and having women hate it, etc, etc.
I didn't come across any reference to Lucifer (aka the devil) taking over the serpent and using it for his own ends.
Animals were living in harmony with mankind before that...so some form of communication must have been available to them. I guess they lost it when they got tossed out of the garden. But...they continued to live in Eden....just not allowed access to the garden. | |
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/7/2008 5:24:52 PM | "Tree of Knowledge." Don't take a bite from the apple of the Tree of Knowledge.
Sounds to me like that story's trying to demonise the power of knowledge.
Why would it do that?
Well, the more we find out and know about the universe, the more the Bible and Christianity seems like fairy tales and fables. Christianity doesn't want this, becuase they want control and power, which they'd lose if people suddenly stopped and said "Well, this makes more sense..."
Another perspective is that Satanael as the snake is a metaphor for Adam's d*ck, tempting Eve. Through this snake, Even knew sin. Make sense? | |
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Vancer
| | Joined: 10/29/2006
Msg: 17 | |
| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/7/2008 5:41:36 PM | Sounds to me like that story's trying to demonise the power of knowledge.
I got that impression from the Tower of Babel stuff too. But it was probably more about the pride it lead to.
People seem to function well until they learn enough to become envious, proud or jealous of what else is out there. | |
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/7/2008 5:42:23 PM |
So.....if Adam & Eve were tempted by Satan in the guise of a snake and thus the snake was punished to crawl on it's belly as punishment, the question begs to be asked: How did the snake move before deceiving Adam????? Ever heard of legs? Well, the snake had them, and then G-d took them away. I know that science says that it is impossible for that to happen unless an omnipotent G-d changes the very cells and the DNA of the snake so that it no longer has legs in its design. The thing is, science does accept that an omnipotent G-d can do that, and the Bible does say that an omnipotent G-d did that. So science and the Bible are not in disagreement in this regard.
And, why would an infallible, omniscient god punish snakes for something they had no choice or control over; where the blames rests with Satan? If you read the Bible, you'll see the snake talks to Adam and Eve. Can a snake talk? Obviously this was a snake that talks. Can you talk without a brain that has choice or control? Obviously this was a snake that had a brain that has choice and control. Why did the snake do the bidding of Satan? Some people say the snake WAS Satan. Some people say it chose to do the bidding of Satan.
Let the games begin and get yer popcorn ready! This isn't a game. This is a thread. If you want a game, I highly recommend some video games, like Halo, or Project Gotham 2. If you do want to argue about something, I suggest that you pick something in quantum physics. Trying to force your opinions on others does make me wonder if you are trying to sell your ideas to yourself because you don't really believe them. | |
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/7/2008 7:22:42 PM | So how many *snakes with legs* fossils have been found to date?
Several genera, most of which are actual snakes. That is, they were more closely related to some living snakes than to others.
Podophis
Haasiophis
Pachyrhachis
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P3-383838711.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3790/is_200305/ai_n9255186
[^^^ that one is great for discussing relationships, evolutionary mechanisms, etc.
A good all-round insight into what is known and understood about how evolution works]
http://www.digimorph.org/specimens/Pachyrhachis_problematicus/
http://www.karencarr.com/gallery_legged_snake.html
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1692386&blobtype=pdf
[full paper on a limbed marine snake]
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VJ1-41V31XP-G
&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_url
Version=0&_userid=10&md5=7e9a85457c8923fb7c86578aa7adb001
http://paleopolis.rediris.es/cg/CG2003_A01_JCR-FE/CG2003_A01_JCR-FE_uk.pdf
I found THIS interesting...not for their recurrent fallacies, but for the amount of science they were actually willing to acknowledge:
http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/5716/
And others. Interestingly, most of these fossils come from the Middle East. The evidence provided is also rather compelling regarding the whol "proof of evolution" debate. The first theories about the evolutionary relationships of snakes were presented roughly 150 years ago. One of the most prominent theories is STILL the favored one, and the main remaining question concerns whether snakes evolved as burrowers, swimmers, or both. The most primitive living snakes are burrowers, while the marine species are among the most advanced. The closest living lizard relatives are terrestrial, but strong swimmers in general. The closest fossil lizards are marine, and the limbed snakes appear to be terrestrial. Incidentally, several other groups of lizards also contain limbless members, all of which are terrestrial burrowers or grassland dwellers. A couple genera contain species which are fully limbed, along with close relatives with varying degrees of limblessness, according to habitat and habits [see Lerista].
Amphibians provide an interesting perspective. All living caecilians are limbless [some fossil species have limbs], and all are burrowers. The primitive species have aquatic larvae with gills while the advanced species are generally livebearing. All species pretty much live in damp soil, often near water. The so-called Typhlonectidae [just a small group of relatives within a larger group] are considered aquatic, but in reality they largely live in burrows in swamps and along rivers. Burrowers first, swimmers second.
With regard to the Biblical story...without ANY regard to any other part of the Bible or what I may think about it, I have always taken the story of "how the snake lost its legs" to be nothing more than a fanciful explanation created by people who had no explanations. Mind you, I grew up reading things like "How Nanuk lost his tail", so I've seen plenty of creation myths of all sorts. | |
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/7/2008 10:54:02 PM | | The snake was not the devil or anything associated with him, the snake was just a snake. This particular aspect is an etiological story as to why snakes have no legs and to explain their behaviour. | |
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/8/2008 7:13:05 AM | I believe this was meant as a metaphor, to explain how God made Adam and Eve
"in his likeness" which would mean perfect, and then was able to grant them "free will" so as to be able to learn. The story works perfectly to achieve that goal.
Sherry | |
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/8/2008 10:07:59 AM | I was wondering how long it was going to take for someone to say that snakes had legs.
And these mysterious serpents.......is this serpent creature now extinct? Like the rest of the 99% of all creatures that have once lived and are now extinct?
To suggest that a snake(or anything) could resist Satan's will and therefore must be eternally punished for it is ludicrous. Satan was said to be god's most perfect angel and yet a little ol' snake is supposed to resist someone of his power???
There are many problems with the whole story because for one thing, I don't believe A&E could have been tricked by anyone but God as they were perfect. I mean, would you bet that you could trick Adam & Eve into sin if you met them in the garden? And just supposing they could be tricked, and they had curiosity in their natures to mess with that dastardly tree, then maybe God should have been more careful in what he created and how he created it.
I think the blame wholly rests upon God and I also think it's religious lunacy that "we" are to blame for something we had nothing to do with. | |
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/8/2008 12:04:35 PM | If serpents (incorrectly called "snakes" in this thread) had locomotion, it may be that they had wings, not legs. This would make the punishment of having to crawl instead of fly even more cruel. Since we don't have any evidence to suggest that serpents ever had any means of travel other than crawling, it is a subject of conjecture and opinion. We only have the story in the book of Genesis to suggest that they once had a method of transportation that was changed to crawling. And since this story was written thousands, if not million of years after the event, it may not be historically accurate. Certainly there is no scientific evidence.
If serpents were punished and were turned into snakes, then they must have had the ability to resist temptation and choose not to tempt Eve. We know little of Serpent religion, as they are too pithththththth at us to talk to us again (Look what happened last time one did!)
As I suggested before, the story is metaphoric at best and anti-feminist at least.
As in Adam all have sinned, so in Christ all are saved. It's the way things work with God.
I didn't event this idea, nor do I claim to agree with it. Merely reporting on it. | |
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/8/2008 1:20:16 PM |
I was wondering how long it was going to take for someone to say that snakes had legs.
And these mysterious serpents.......is this serpent creature now extinct? Like the rest of the 99% of all creatures that have once lived and are now extinct?
It is mythology, it does not have to make any more sense than spiders are descended from a lady turned into an 8 legged thing because she was boasting that she was a better weaver than a god. | |
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| Adam & Eve & the snake
Posted: 8/8/2008 1:38:34 PM | ok Frogo, went to those websites, and a 1500 page paper which thankfully put the description on the first page said this:
and well-developed hindlimb composed of femur, tibia, ¢bula, and tarsals.
So those two little tiny antennae type things at the end of the snake had bones? How exactly did those legs hold up the length of the snake? And at what stage of this animal's evolution are we talking? The end bit when the snake got about by slithering and the legs were just some primordial remembered vestiges? Going by this artist's rendering..
http://www.karencarr.com/gallery_legged_snake.html
But cool example of science meeting myth Um, you just may become the ID's spokesperson now, I hope you realise.....
Still going with my dead first husband, 
Cheers, Raven | |
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