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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > McCain broke Military Code of Conduct      Home login  
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 MacKevinized
Joined: 2/15/2006
Msg: 1
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McCain broke Military Code of ConductPage 1 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
John McCain seriously violated the Military Code of Conduct by trading military information and making numerous public statements that appeared favorable to the communist war effort in exchange for special treatment.

After being periodically slapped around for "three or four days" by his captors who wanted military information from him, McCain called for an officer on his fourth day of captivity. He told the officer, "O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital." -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
________________________
Nov. 9, 1967 (U.S. government documents) Hanoi press began quoting him giving specific military information.

One report dated read, "To a question of the correspondent, McCain answered: 'My assignment to the Oriskany, I told myself, was due to serious losses in pilots, which were sustained by this aircraft carrier (due to its raids on the North Vietnam territory - VNA) and which necessitated replacements. From 10 to 12 pilots were transferred like me from the Forrestal to the Oriskany. Before I was shot down, we had made several sorties. Altogether, I made about 23 flights over North Vietnam.'"

In that report, McCain was quoted describing the number of aircraft in his flight, information about rescue ships, and the order of which his attack was supposed to take place.

___________________________
1999 - March 25, 1999, The Phoenix New Times: Ted Guy and Gordon "Swede" Larson, two former POWs, who were McCain's senior ranking officers (SRO's), at the time McCain says he was tortured in solitary confinement, told the New Times that while they could not guarantee that McCain was not physically harmed, they doubted it.

"Between the two of us, it's our belief, and to the best of our knowledge, that no prisoner was beaten or harmed physically in that camp [known as "The Plantation"]," Larson says. ". . . My only contention with the McCain deal is that while he was at The Plantation, to the best of my knowledge and Ted's knowledge, he was not physically abused in any way. No one was in that camp. It was the camp that people were released from."

In 1993, during one of his many trips back to Hanoi, McCain asked the Vietnamese not to make public the records they hold pertaining to returned U.S. POWs.

Just like bushie, McCain likes to to hide the details that prove he is not as honorable as he claims to be.

Would you want to see those records McCain wants to keep hidden or keep your head in the sand?
 Hagars
Joined: 4/20/2008
Msg: 2
McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 4:03:25 AM
It was a war, he fought in it, he got captured, shiit happens in them situations. in mccains case we should move on.
bush is different though.
 LillyAmber
Joined: 7/26/2008
Msg: 3
McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 4:08:32 AM

Would you want to see those records McCain wants to keep hidden or keep your head in the sand?

Not really.Every one has a past. Bad or good. People can change. If they cant, then Obamas line of "Change"is useless.



Just like bushie, McCain likes to to hide the details that prove he is not as honorable as he claims to be.

I think that also describes just about everyone in the world.
 MacKevinized
Joined: 2/15/2006
Msg: 4
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McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 4:50:08 AM

Not really.Every one has a past. Bad or good. People can change. If they cant, then Obamas line of "Change"is useless.



HOW MUCH MORE INFORMATION DID HE GIVE?

McCain has admitted that the Vietnamese repeatedly threatened to withhold much needed operations unless he would give them more information. Did he provide it?

After six weeks of this type of threats and medical treatment, he was delivered to Room No. 11 of "The Plantation" and into the hands of two other POWs, who helped further nurse him along until he was eventually able to walk by himself.

For the next 22 months, McCain was kept isolated from the other American prisoners. Because the Vietnamese considered him a "special prisoner" he was the target of intense indoctrination programs. His communist interrogators believed that because McCain came from a "royal family," he would, when finally released, return to the United States to some important military or government job.

The communist were very much aware that POW McCain would be under great psychological pressure not to do or say anything that would tarnish his famous military family and they considered that to be the key to eventually breaking and then "turning" him.

During that period of time McCain was visited by several foreign delegations (including Cubans) and interviewed by many high ranking North Vietnamese leaders including Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, North Vietnam's Minster of Defense and national hero . . .

On Dec. 7, 1969, McCain was moved out of "The Plantation" and into the "Hanoi Hilton" with other prisoners of war.

McCain was released as a prisoner of war on March 15, 1973.

Following various medical and surgical procedures, he attended the National War College in Washington, D.C. and was later posted as commanding officer of Replacement Training Squadron 174 in Jacksonville, Fla.

In 1977, McCain was ordered to the Office of Legislative Affairs and was assigned as the Director of the Navy Senate Liaison Office, where he remained until disability retirement in April 1981.

A year earlier, in 1980, his marriage and personal life soured. His marriage to Carol, who had been seriously injured and crippled in a motor vehicle accident during his confinement in Vietnam, ended in divorce.


Now that would be scary if McCain was brainwashed during those 22 months captivity do do the communists bidding, so his past in this case is very pertinent. And it would kind of explain his view that torture is OK.
 neopol
Joined: 9/26/2006
Msg: 5
McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 5:35:32 AM

John McCain seriously violated the Military Code of Conduct by trading military information and making numerous public statements that appeared favorable to the communist war effort in exchange for special treatment.


So did John Kerry, but my Democratic party declared it unimportant, null & void. Its not an issue or violation anymore since the 2004 election. It applies to both parties.



When Kerry went to Paris in the summer of 1970, he ‘claimed’ it was for his first honeymoon with heiress #1.
-He met with assorted communists to engage in extensive discussions about plans, procedures and how to get the U.S. to surrender to Vietnam…WHILE HE WAS CONTRACTUALLY OBLIGATED AS A NAVAL RESERVE OFFICER.
-Kerry’s covert lobbying were never reported to the Navy.
-Kerry was also subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
-As a commissioned officer, he was prohibited from making adverse statements against his chain of command or statements against his country, especially during time of war.
-Kerry lied under oath against fellow soldiers before the US Senate about crimes committed in Vietnam.
-Kerry claimed to be a war criminal on national television. The U.S. Constitution's Article 3, Section 3, defines treason as "giving aid and comfort" to the enemy in time of warfare, in direct violation of the Military Code of Conduct.


Been there, done that, yawned.


Would you want to see those records McCain wants to keep hidden or keep your head in the sand


No, because, Kerry did the exact same thing. He didnt sign off until May 2005, 6 months after the election. Democrats have set protocol. McCain is merely following this established trend.


On May 20, Kerry signed a document called Standard Form 180, authorizing the Navy to send an ''undeleted" copy of his ''complete military service record and medical record" to the Globe. Asked why he delayed signing the form for so long, Kerry said in a written response: ''The call for me to sign a 180 form came from the same partisan operatives who were lying about my record on a daily basis on the Web and in the right-wing media. Even though the media was discrediting them, they continued to lie. I felt strongly that we shouldn't kowtow to them and their attempts to drag their lies out."


You can very easily delete the name "KERRY" & insert the name "MCCAIN in the previous paragraph, & it would make the same sense both ways.

Been there, done that, yawned.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 6
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McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 5:44:57 AM
If McCain's party wants to keep giving out dirt on Obama...then fair is fair.

Otherwise, they should stay out of the kitchen.
 Chiny®™©
Joined: 7/2/2006
Msg: 7
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McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 5:48:07 AM

In 1993, during one of his many trips back to Hanoi, McCain asked the Vietnamese not to make public the records they hold pertaining to returned U.S. POWs.


Hmmmmm.............Yes indeed.

Just recently, I watched a TV interview with the actual Vietnamese commanding officer of the Hanoi Hilton guards that watched over the Senator. He (the Vietnamese Officer), remembers McCain with fondness and ardently assured that McCain was never tortured or abused in any way.
In fact McCain was treated scrupulously well and received the appropriate medical attention for the injuries he acquired when he ejected from his aircraft.

So I’m not surprised that the Senator would not want that treatment to be common knowledge, given his own claims.

It would make an excellent current affair story for programs such as “60 Minutes”. Imagine the scandal if they went to Hanoi, accessed the official records and they showed that he was well treated? It would certainly end his claims to the throne and I doubt that the average US citizen would want another liar in the White House.
 TheStefano
Joined: 6/15/2008
Msg: 8
McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 5:51:44 AM
I think this is very inappropriate to bring up and a really pretty disgusting topic for a man who suffered so much in the service of his country.

OP: youre better than this, man.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 9
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McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 7:14:52 AM
Actually, far too many men died in captivity because they stuck to "name , rank, and serial number". The rules were changed, simply because of that great loss of life - with little gain.


"Now..after these factual descriptions....let's get to the guts of the slander about John McCain. Francois Chalais was a Frenchman. McCain was NOT in violation of the Code of Conduct in speaking with him. McCain did not speak against his country or any of our allies..which is what the Code prohibits. The news of his shoot-down was not a military secret, and in fact had been published by the U. S. Navy, just as all combat losses were reported. John McCain did not say anything to Chalais that was improper.

"The claims by the U.S. Veteran Dispatch is just plain bull. No factual basis. I know because I was there and saw these things personally.

"But, not only did I know this..so did many others. In the cell next door to us on one side were Captain Larry Carrigan and Major Mo Baker. Also on the other side were Captain Guy Gruters and Captain Bob Craner. Just adjoining us, but able to see most of what was going on were AF Major Jack Van Loan, Lt, Reed McCleary, and Charley Plumb. There are probably 15 other persons in that camp who can also personally verify the statements that I have made in my Email to you. They will all deny that John McCain violated the Code of Conduct by talking to Chalais or by having Vo Nguyen Giap come and look into John's hospital cell.

"Further, there was no meeting with any Spanish psychiatrist from Cuba. The Cubans had a delegation in Hanoi who were exploiting prisoners...one of whom (xxxx xxxxx) was tortured out of his mind by a Cuban we called Fidel. John mentions in his book Faith of My Fathers that the prison authorities brougnt a Cuban delegation by his room. John refused to talk with them. What they wanted was Communist propaganda. They didn't get it.

"P.S. I was John's commander for roughly 2 years after we first got separated in early May 1968. He was tortured. Tortured several times. None of the people who claimed he wasn't were not there in Hanoi. I was! They LIED."

Yours truly:

Colonel Bud Day Medal of Honor- Air Force Cross, DSM, Silver Star, DFC, Purple Heart 3 clusters, Bronze Star 3 clusters WW II, Korea, Viet Nam Senior Air Force Member- Code of Conduct Review Board, 1975

http://www.devvy.net/candidates/mccain_final.html


McCain loses nothing in my books with his actions, and this isn't anything worth discussing (except to dismiss it as meaningless).
 teachpeace
Joined: 9/19/2007
Msg: 10
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McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 7:24:00 AM
I've never served in the military so I don't have a clue what Code of Conduct means but I do know that it wouldn't have taken me three or four days.......maybe three minutes? I get a hang nail and I'm a wreck. I loath torture and have absolutely no idea how people survive it much less with hold information. While I'm utterly disinterested in judging anyone who's been through this, I also think the Repubs might want to be a bit more careful about the 'hero/military service' experience as their proverbial trump card. I also still can't fathom McCain's position on torture. Does he support it because it broke him?
 itechman63
Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 11
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McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 7:26:41 AM

I watched a TV interview with the actual Vietnamese commanding officer of the Hanoi Hilton guards that watched over the Senator. He (the Vietnamese Officer), remembers McCain with fondness and ardently assured that McCain was never tortured or abused in any way.
In fact McCain was treated scrupulously well and received the appropriate medical attention for the injuries he acquired when he ejected from his aircraft.


Yes, just as a guard at Auschwitz would call it a Day Spa for Jews.

There are things in this world I'm not even going to pretend to understand what they would be like and could never relate to... such as being a POW.

Here's what matters... is McCain capable and willing to reverse current failing policies, enact new ones that are sound and in the best interests of the whole of America, and provide solid leadership? Vote on what you feel that answer to be.
 eeeo4U
Joined: 6/25/2007
Msg: 12
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McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 7:29:26 AM
Thank you, Stefano...that shows quite a depth of sensitivity and honor. I appreciate reading this...
 MacKevinized
Joined: 2/15/2006
Msg: 13
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McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 7:42:35 AM

So did John Kerry, but my Democratic party declared it unimportant, null & void. Its not an issue or violation anymore since the 2004 election. It applies to both parties.


I wasn't happy with Kerry either but that's a whole other issue isn't it.


Just recently, I watched a TV interview with the actual Vietnamese commanding officer of the Hanoi Hilton guards that watched over the Senator. He (the Vietnamese Officer), remembers McCain with fondness and ardently assured that McCain was never tortured or abused in any way.
In fact McCain was treated scrupulously well and received the appropriate medical attention for the injuries he acquired when he ejected from his aircraft.


There's a picture of McCain hugging that officer.


McCain loses nothing in my books with his actions, and this isn't anything worth discussing (except to dismiss it as meaningless).


Thanks for the conflicting info, I knew there must be some and you may think it's not worth discussing but you just did.
 NERO1
Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 14
McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 8:01:00 AM
Interesting post, OP. You know, I have often wondered why John Kerry (who actually did something in Vietnam besides just getting shot down and held captive the whole time) had his military record put under scrutiny by Republicans and yet for some reason questioning McCain's has been for some reason beyond the pale. Yes, he was held captive. That had to be traumatic, obviously. Admirable that he survived I suppose (although I've heard he was offered or given somewhat "easier" treatment when they found out who his father was). Other than that though, in all reality, what's really so heroic about getting shot down and captured? I'd admit he was a real bada$$ if he had, say for instance, broken OUT of the camp whether I liked him politically or not. He never rose to the rank of admiral either, which they say he should have. What happened to him over there makes me wonder if he wouldn't get the whole country shot down and captured (metaphorically speaking) as C.I.C.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 15
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McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 8:22:46 AM
If you are going to attack the man, hit above the belt. There's more than enough to aim for there.

McCain gave up information that the North Vietnamese almost certainly already knew - his ship's name, squadron number, and target.

He then used that base to lie.


Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant. Pressed for more useful information, I gave the names of the Green Bay Packers' offensive line, and said they were members of my squadron. When asked to identify future targets, I simply recited the names of a number of North Vietnamese cities that had already been bombed.

"Faith of My Fathers"[Page 194*]


That's enough of a "concession" to stay alive, and use to make your captors think you are giving them additional valuable information. It betrays nothing that violates OpSec, while doing so.

He did that only under rather incredible psychological strain, and intense physical pain.

Suggesting that this in any way is something wrong, or cowardly is doing a great disservice to McCain - and many other POW's , who have done similar things.
 teachpeace
Joined: 9/19/2007
Msg: 16
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McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 8:38:27 AM
Hell a guy that knew the GREEN BAY PACKERS' offensive line can't be ALL bad.......hmmmm
 PurpleCrayon~
Joined: 9/26/2007
Msg: 17
McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 9:03:55 AM
There's a video the Viet made of McCain to persuade the US to do their bidding. I watched it on a documentary. McCain is tied to what looks to be tree limbs as he is paraded through the village paths. Arms stretched apart and legs stretched. At the time of this, he had broken arms and legs from the crash. The VC were sticking sharp objects into his groin, sides, etc. You could see the blood dripping down and skin flying off his body as they punched and beat him. They dragged him through the streets with his back on the rocks and dirt. He was pulverized.

You can probably 'google' it and watch it for yourself. It's not pretty though so be forewarned.

McCain had been shot down prior...giving air cover to troops and yes, dropping bombs on the enemy. He was shot down several times. I think the 5th time is when he was captured.

The Democrats may get McCain on his memory ... just as Obama has the memory lapses. But, they will get nowhere trying to discredit McCain's service to this Nation. If they try, it will backfire.

McCain broke no Military code at all. None. He gave info he knew the VC already had and yep, gave the names of the pro football team.
 ThymeKiller
Joined: 2/1/2008
Msg: 18
McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 9:18:15 AM
TheStefano and MontrealGuy I take back every awful thing I've ever said to you. You show real class.

From what I've read the prisoners had a code of how much pain each offense was worth. A signed confession was so many days of torture a taped confession was even more torture. They knew they couldn't hold out but they had to sell each propaganda point as dearly as possible.

It's widely understood that not adhereing to the code of conduct isn't possible under torture. Nobody can hold out under the torture they were subjected to and they weren't expected to.


(c) Understand that, short of death, it is unlikely that a
POW may prevent a skilled enemy interrogator,using all available psychological
and physical qethods of coercion, from obtaining some degree of compliance by
the POW with captor demands.


references
OPNAV 1000.24B
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/codeofconduct1.htm
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 19
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McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 9:31:26 AM
No doubt he suffered greatly.

Doesn't make him a good candidate for president. Doesn't make him a bad one either.

I respect the pain he endured for America. However, I respect Adm Stockdale more.

McCain isn't a bad choice because he was a POW, he is a bad choice because he represents the same failed policies of the republican party since 1981. Democrats more closely resemble the Republican party of Ike, Goldwater and Nixon. Hillary and Bill are Goldwater conservatives. Obama is a moderate. Our country can't take more of the necon greed and corruption. No reason to believe it will change with another republican.

So, yes, he served his country, I don't care about him breaking. I respect those who didn't a little more. But regardless of his military service, he is simply not qualified to bring our country out of the mess his predecessor left us!
 eeeo4U
Joined: 6/25/2007
Msg: 20
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McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 9:32:38 AM
Thymekiller, thanks...I was going to look that up since I remember my Code of Conduct saying that we were supposed to resist as much as possible and basically make them work for anything they got.
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 21
McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 9:52:12 AM
I don't blame McCain for that... anymore than I blame enlistees for bugging out rather than go back in when they get backdrafted. We all have our breaking points.
 Scherri
Joined: 7/14/2008
Msg: 22
McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 10:01:52 AM
^^^ I agree, this won't make for good political strategy for the democrats. I hope they don't go there. Even if his claims of the events are not what truely happened, I think it would still backfire on them.
 TheStefano
Joined: 6/15/2008
Msg: 23
McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 10:26:48 AM
PurpleCrayon, I dont know who you are referring to with "the Democrats".....were a mixed bunch, maybe mixed nuts, too.........but I dont hear Obama engaging in this and it would be a million years before he did.......as with the rest of us. We all acknowledge what John McCain suffered as well as his incredible bravery and fortitude.

You will find fringe Dems who will engage in this kind of thing, but take a good look at how disgusting such a thing is and then apply it to the kind of mean-spirited tactics that Republicans so often do..........and certainly did in Kerry's case in 2004.
 flyonthewall!
Joined: 3/31/2008
Msg: 24
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McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 11:15:10 AM

I have often wondered why John Kerry (who actually did something in Vietnam besides just getting shot down and held captive the whole time) had his military record put under scrutiny by Republicans and yet for some reason questioning McCain's has been for some reason beyond the pale.


Seems like a little history might help you. John McCain did a lot more than "get shot down".

In the first place, McCain got shot down because he didn't return after his plane was hit and continued to throw bombs on the target. He won a Distinguished Flying Cross for this.

Secondly, he did a lot for his fellow POWs while in captivity, especially considering he was in solitary for a year and a half at the Citadel (Plantation), and a year and a half at Hoa Lo (the Hanoi Hilton).

Bud Day, McCain's cellmate along with Norris Overly at the Plantation, credits McCain with saving the use of his arm. Bud's arm was broken by his captors after an escape attempt, and they purposely set it with the bone sticking out so that he wouldn't be able to fly again after release. McCain set his arm by pushing his leg into Day's underarm and pulling on his wrist, and then hunted down pieces of bamboo to use as a splint. Mind you, he did this while in mutliple casts himself. McCain took bandages from his own wounds to form a new splint for Day's arm. Later, after Day returned to flying, his doctor said that he got a very good repair in Vietnam. Day commented that it was not his captors who were responsible but "Dr. McCain".

McCain held religious services for fellow POWs during the time he was not in solitary.

McCain refused early release, which was the reason he was put in solitary for more than half of his incarceration.

Helping another POW the way McCain did, and paricipating, or leading religious services while in captivity was met with severe punishment. The captors tried to keep the POWs from communicating in any way in order to break down their spirit.

Yet they kept in touch and helped each other, sometimes being tortured for doing so, because they knew they could only make it with each other.

Believe it or not, the POWs followed military code, and when they had to "break" the code, they would only do so under the orders of their senior officers. McCain and others only gave enough information in confessions to placate their captors, but they would make up all kinds of stories, give bombing locations that had already been bombed, instead of providing real information.

The POWs were very creative, they have an average IQ of 135, and were able to use good common sense to stay alive while figuring out a way to stay alive.


He never rose to the rank of admiral either, which they say he should have.


McCain never rose to the rank of admiral because he left the navy before his promotion to Commodore (the equivalent of a one-star general). He was already on the promotion list when he left. So had he not left the service, most likely he would have risen through the ranks just like his father and grandfather.

Really, get your facts straight before posting them in a public forum.
 neopol
Joined: 9/26/2006
Msg: 25
McCain broke Military Code of Conduct
Posted: 8/7/2008 3:22:08 PM

I wasn't happy with Kerry either but that's a whole other issue isn't it.


NO IT ISNT ANOTHER ISSUE. Its the same thing, except to a partisan bullshit master.
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