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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/10/2008 4:23:44 AM | Heard this on the news this morning, and thought, wow, what's going on? Then went to the Asian news sites to hear their take on it.
From http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/366404/1/.html
Asia Pacific News
Bush visits church in China, calls for religious freedom
Posted: 10 August 2008 1247 hrs
Photos 1 of 1
Chinese policemen near the Beijing church where US President George W. Bush has attended a Sunday service.
BEIJING: US President George W. Bush on Sunday attended a service at a Protestant church in Beijing, reinforcing his call for freedom of religion ahead of a meeting with his Chinese counterpart Hu Jintao, a witness said.
Bush, in China since Thursday on a visit to the Olympics combined with some high-end diplomacy, attended the service Sunday morning, according to an AFP photographer at the scene.
Bush has repeatedly returned to the theme of religious freedom in China during his trip to the Far East in recent days, and during his presidency.
He has also pledged to raise the question of human rights when he meets with Chinese leaders later Sunday. He was due to meet Hu at 12:30pm (0430 GMT).
During a visit to Seoul earlier this week, Bush insisted he would not back down from his support for religious freedoms while in China.
"I have been meeting Chinese leaders for 7 1/2 years and my message has been the same: you should not fear religious people in your society," Bush told a press conference.
"As a matter of fact, religious people will make your society a better place."
Critics say Bush should have boycotted the Olympic opening ceremony because of China's rights record. The US leader defended his decision.
Bush said his reasons for going to the Games were twofold: "One, to show my respect for the people of China; and two, to cheer on the US team."
- AFP/yb
Due to my overwhelming mistrust of this man, at first blush, I thought, finally, he's doing something right by promoting human rights issues and tolerance.
And then I saw this and thought, yup, back to the same old, same old....
"As a matter of fact, religious people will make your society a better place."
As I am unable to look into his heart, it is hard to discern his motives. (I am most sympathetic to the plight of Tibetans) Certainly, on CBC newscasts, soundbites show him saying, "God's love is universal". But this same newscast has reports from Chinese officials stating that Bush has no right to meddle in people's private affairs. (sorry, can't find any links to these remarks, yet)
But as a mother whose son is an atheist, this remark peeves me to no end. It infers that those who do not practise any religious beliefs do not make society a better place. And the skeptic in me certainly sees how tolerant the US gamut of religious affairs has the country torn apart, and many decisions are definitely influenced by religious thought. How he dares to impinge his religious beliefs on another country just shows me how his ego knows no boundaries. "A better place" indeed.
Anyone care to comment? Exactly whose religion does he want promoted in China? Whatever happened to religion and state should be separate? I very much support the human rights angle, but what does religion have to do with anything in this matter?
Cheers, Raven | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/10/2008 7:47:54 AM |
Bush: "As a matter of fact, religious people will make your society a better place."
But as a mother whose son is an atheist, this remark peeves me to no end. It infers that those who do not practise any religious beliefs do not make society a better place. Only if you really want to be offended. What he said is what he said. You have to use "infer" or say "what he really meant was" to make it work. He didn't' say what you choose to be offended by. Hey, I'm no fan of Bush, but the insult here is not in the transmission.
And the skeptic in me certainly sees how tolerant the US gamut of religious affairs has the country torn apart, and many decisions are definitely influenced by religious thought. The first I can't comment on because I don't see it so I regard it as a hyper-sensitivity on your part. To you this is the way it is. It's subjective at best.
How he dares to impinge his religious beliefs on another country He's not impinging his "religious beliefs" on the Chinese. He's stating the US government's position on human rights. Unless the US has changed it's position on Human Rights. Because I might be out of the loop and didn't get the memo.
Exactly whose religion does he want promoted in China? None. But that was obvious.
I very much support the human rights angle, but what does religion have to do with anything in this matter? Freedom of religion is one of those parts of that "human rights angle". I'm surprised you missed that. | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/10/2008 8:30:39 AM |
Only if you really want to be offended. What he said is what he said. You have to use "infer" or say "what he really meant was" to make it work. He didn't' say what you choose to be offended by. Hey, I'm no fan of Bush, but the insult here is not in the transmission.
Gotta disagree Romantic. He said "as a matter of fact, religious people will make your society a better place". (bold is mine)
Um, at this level of world affairs, personal opinions on religion, "inferring" to the leader of a secular nation that they would be "a better place" is, in my opinion, offensive.
The first I can't comment on because I don't see it so I regard it as a hyper-sensitivity on your part. To you this is the way it is. It's subjective at best.
Well, I certainly can't pretend to be an expert on US politics. But, a casual observer can easily see that consistent mention of Obama's religious leanings are certainly a big issue on the news. Vets who want the Pentacle put on their gravestone and the fight that had to ensue to make the government bow to his wishes certainly speak to a country that was loathe to comply due to the Vet's "different" beliefs. The ongoing insistence that abortion is a religious issue. Prayer in schools, and the list goes on. But you're right, subjective.
He's not impinging his "religious beliefs" on the Chinese. He's stating the US government's position on human rights. Unless the US has changed it's position on Human Rights.
Actually, no he didn't. Again, he told China.......
"As a matter of fact, religious people will make your society a better place."
Freedom of religion is one of those parts of that "human rights angle". I'm surprised you missed that.
Not at all. But Bush is especially pushing the religious issue. Why not the multitude of other issues such as Tibet occupation, Sudan/Zimbabwae/Myanmar weapons supply, lack of freedom of speech, democracy, & media manipulation? (got these examples from another thread) There are many more....
Anyway, Cheers! Raven | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/10/2008 8:40:31 AM |
Um, at this level of world affairs, personal opinions on religion, "inferring" to the leader of a secular nation that they would be "a better place" is, in my opinion, offensive. I misunderstood. You're offended by the statement made, and no the opposite of the statement made, that which you inferred as contained within the statement made? OK. I must have missed that in your first post. Now I'm offended by your inference that religious people will make their society a worse place. 
But Bush is especially pushing the religious issue. Possibly. Oh, but wait, let's check out the context. He was attending a church service, yes? It makes sense to me. I would suppose that if he was visiting with the Dalai Lama, Tibet would be front and centre, if Tiananmen Square, freedom of speech would be front and centre, more than religious freedom (the actual issue he was "pushing"). But I expect you will not see that context as useful. | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/10/2008 8:56:04 AM |
Now I'm offended by your inference that religious people will make their society a worse place.
Ok Ok, lol lol lol...was totally confused, but I see what you're getting at. But the thing is, China is a self described non-religious country, and as such, implying that it can be "a better place" with religion, is in my opinion, offensive.
Possibly. Oh, but wait, let's check out the context. He was attending a church service, yes? It makes sense to me.
Can I direct you back to the original article posted?
Bush has repeatedly returned to the theme of religious freedom in China during his trip to the Far East in recent days, and during his presidency.
It wasn't just after his attendance at church, but intermittently throughout his visit and presidency.
lol, just like the old times...Cheers, Raven
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/10/2008 10:48:27 AM |
US President George W. Bush on Sunday attended a service at a Protestant church in Beijing, reinforcing his call for freedom of religion ahead of a meeting with his Chinese counterpart Hu Jintao, a witness said.
Religion is not forbidden in China, least not to my knowledge. People in China can worship whomever they want. What the Chinese come down really hard on is if religion attempts to make a foray into the political governing of the country.
It’s a secular governed country and they vehemently enforce that secularism.
Completely different from the USA, whose government and government decisions are dominated by extreme Christian fundamentalism and yet they plea secularism.
Surely the fact that Bush could attend a Christian church service in downtown Beijing is evident of China’s open policy regarding religion and not indicative of religious coercion?
Don't know what the Yanks go on about sometimes!
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/10/2008 2:27:55 PM |
he didn't specify that it has to be his religion or any religion in particular, merely that people that subscribe to a belief system based on a core values and ethics that reference a higher power, give the world a moral compass.
See, thats the sin that god believers commit...assuming that athiests have no morals. Thats the attitude that offends me the most. That they think you have to believe in god to know right from wrong. Or that their moral compass is the only true direction to take. And when they say core values, what they mean is values that match what they think is right. Example: homosexuals have no core values. So while all of us immoral athiests are running around breathing up all the good air, Mr morality starts a war and sends everyone elses kids off to die in it.
In any case, the President also has religious freedom, and has a right to express his opinions. He is no a king, and is not "imposing" anything on anyone by expressing his beliefs.
Yes, he has the religious freedom within the privacy of his own home to express his beliefs to his family, friends and the dog! But since he's the president of a country where church and state are seperate, I dont give a rats azz what he believes. He has no more business expressing his religious opinions on the people of this country, then he does to annouce how he enjoyed his last prostate exam! | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/10/2008 2:43:19 PM | Raveninns, I call myself agnostic and I take no offense to Bush's comment.
What Bush is basically saying is
A->B
A = Being a religous person
B = Helps society
The only way I could see you be offended is if he said
!A->!B
which he did not say, and is a logical fallacy to assume he did taking A->B as a premise.
Basically, I think that religous people can help society, especially if there are few religous people in that society. I think the real point to be made here, is that having people with a diverse thinking process and beliefs is better than having everyone have the same point of view. In corporate America this is a well accepted premise as diversity between sex, race, etc is encouraged and has been proven to help company bottom lines.
To kind of give an example taking this comment into context. One can claim that religion helps society because if everyone were to follow the religious view of no sex before marriage, then STDs would be less wide spread, and HIV and AIDS could likely disappear completely. From the same token the non-religious view can be argued to help society as well. For example, the non-religious view could argue that there should be government funding for stem cell research as a non-religious person sees nothing negative about it, and only positive things.
On a separate point, I think Chiny made a good point, by stating China allows religion (proof by Bush attending a protestant church), but has a secular government. I personally think the United States could learn from China in this case. When the constitution was originally written, separation of Church and State was specifically put in there. If this was rigidly followed, then Bush couldn't use his religious beliefs to stunt stem-cell research, or make ridiculous comments like God told him to start the war. (Clearly I'm not a Bush fan.) | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/10/2008 3:17:43 PM |
The comment that a society that has a belief system in a higher power, overall, will have a higher ethical standard for individuals. It doesn't matter if it's Christianity, or the ancient Roman gods, there is a higher standard of conduct that individuals, overall, impose on themselves through having a belief in a higher power, than those who have no belief in anything greater than themselves.
This statement isn't even true. A person who does not beleive in a higher power may or may not impose a higher standard of conduct on themselves.
Take for example a FEW of the Roman Catholic priests who raped little boys. You'd be pretty hard pressed to argue that they held themself to a higher standard to law abiding atheist. What you may be suggesting is that an atheis may have less incentive to hold themself to a higher standard. I would be more inclined to believe this. | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/10/2008 3:45:41 PM |
The comment that a society that has a belief system in a higher power, overall, will have a higher ethical standard for individuals.
I understand completely what the comment meant, and it's totaly an opinion
It doesn't matter if it's Christianity, or the ancient Roman gods, there is a higher standard of conduct that individuals, overall, impose on themselves through having a belief in a higher power, than those who have no belief in anything greater than themselves.
That is total bull! It suggests that as a non-believer, I'm more likely to commit murder since I have no belief in Hell. I believe thats the company line coming out of the christian camp, that people that dont belive in god are more dangerous to society. Pretty funny since the majority of prisoners in our prison system believe in god.
And of course only god believers can decide what that higher standard of conduct is defined as, right? It insinuates that christians, or any other religious people that believe in a higher power, are better contributors to society then us self centered, self absorbed, habitual masturbater types! Thats just a lot of fancy talk that still says the same thing...Religion wants to control all the activities and lives of everyone in order to protect their power! It's the same story all throughout history.
Please point out the provision in the first amendment that bars the President from speaking about his faith, wherever he chooses to do so.
There dosent have to be one. Just like there isnt any official document that specifically states that America has a seperation of church and state policy. The fact that the first amendment declares a freedom of religion for all Americans confirms it. Otherwise the constitution couldnt work if there wasnt. I, as an athiest have the constitutional freedon NOT to believe in your god, so why would I want to hear my president talk about something that is not within the scope of his job? His job is to run the country, not to tell me about his ingrown toenail or his swollen roids! How is hearing that, or his religious beliefs gonna reduce the price of gas? Nah, for seven and a half years he's been playing the ole "If you throw enuf shiit againt the wall, some of it is bound to stick" game!
I can, on the other hand, point to resolutions passed by Congress demanding that freedom of religion should be allowed in China. It is a matter of public policy.
Well could it be that my conspiracy theorys are true? There are conservative christians planted in congress and their plan is to sytematically convert the world to a one world religion? This would be step one. And of course it just so happenss to occur during King George's administration. Lets just keep sticking out noses into other countries affairs...especially when it benefit's some specific agenda. | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/10/2008 4:12:06 PM |
What part of the word "overall" is too difficult for you to comprehend. "Overall" consists of many individuals, and within those individuals, there will be many different results. However, if one views history, one can note the decline of civilizations has a direct correlation to the decline in the belief and practice of religion within those civilizations. That's true, whether the gods were the roman or greek gods, or Christianity.
I disagree with your assertion. You can't even claim that overall, people who believe in a higher power hold themself to a higher standard then people who don't. Speaking of history ever hear about the crusades? These were basically wars where the self defined holy people went out and killed everyone who disagreed with their religion. Thats not holding one self to a higher standard. In fact, a more reasonable conclusion to derive about the fall of societies is to put religion at fault. I don't see atheists going out and causing events such as 9/11 using an extremist rational to justify it. I don't see atheists saying that God told them to goto war. And as a previous poster mentioned, most people in jail aren't atheist, they believe in a higher power. Also in histroy wasn't there a King who killed people who didn't accept his religion. How is any of this holding themself to a higher standard. Face it, religion doesn't define some one's character, only that person does. You don't have sufficient evidence to come close to such a conclusion. Also, I don't see by how reviewing history you could see a direct correlation between the falls of societies and less practice of religion. Care to provide some support for such a statement? | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/10/2008 4:41:04 PM |
There are those on the left, who I refer to as moonbats, who never stick to a point, and will reach out to obscure, irrelevant issues, so one can never have a reasoned discussion. So I withdraw. The Crusades? Relevant to President Bush calling for religious freedom in China in 2008, how?
Lets see this is how the discussion progressed.
Bush claims that religious people help society
-You attempt to support bushes claim by stating that people who believe in a higher being are overall more ethical
-I claim that your premise is not justified
-You attempt to use history to justify your claim
-I use history as a counter example to your claim (Crusades)
Its on topic to the original disucssion becasue it is being used as a counter example to a premise you tried to introduce to support the original claim. Are you basically telling me your allowed to introduce what ever premise you want to support the original discussion without allowing anyone to call you on that premise. In that case I could choose to use this premise to disclaim bushes claim. Religion does not help society because there can be spirits in religion, and those spirits will scare everyone so badly they won't want to leave their home. Sorry, you can't point out how ridiculous this assertion in doing so you'll be off topic. | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/10/2008 4:44:56 PM | Individuals like Bush like to preach 'freedom of religion' and argue their particular faith is being 'suppressed' or 'attacked'.
What in fact really has them all hot and bothered is that their particular religion doesn't currently exercise domination over all others. | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/10/2008 5:49:11 PM |
Its on topic to the original disucssion becasue it is being used as a counter example to a premise you tried to introduce to support the original claim. Are you basically telling me your allowed to introduce what ever premise you want to support the original discussion without allowing anyone to call you on that premise. In that case I could choose to use this premise to disclaim bushes claim. Religion does not help society because there can be spirits in religion, and those spirits will scare everyone so badly they won't want to leave their home. Sorry, you can't point out how ridiculous this assertion in doing so you'll be off topic.
Hey jonathan, thats excellent analytical thinking there buddy...I'd of blown up by now and would have got tossed by ole fiddy. You said exactly what I wanted to say, but without the cursing..lol | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/10/2008 5:52:24 PM | kissnguy said:
homosexuals have no core values I find that very offensive. What evidence do you have to support such a bigoted claim?
singular_intellect said:
What in fact really has them all hot and bothered is that their particular religion doesn't currently exercise domination over all others. Yeah. Right. Whatever. Yawn. | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/10/2008 5:52:56 PM |
Individuals like Bush like to preach 'freedom of religion' and argue their particular faith is being 'suppressed' or 'attacked'.
What in fact really has them all hot and bothered is that their particular religion doesn't currently exercise domination over all others.
Another point thats exactly on target. I think thats exactly Bush's plan. It's a slow plot to convert the world to christianity. | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/10/2008 6:07:33 PM |
All of this is really off topic, anyway. President Bush, while attending a church service, expressed U.S. policy calling for freedom of religion in China.
How does the US even have a policy that allows them to stick their nose into the business of another country? And where does christianity get off thinking they have a voice in anything related to governmental policy's? Because you know Bush is going in there representing the religious conservatives of this country. They're just a special interest group and nothing else. Thats no different then the NRA demanding that Bush tell China that they have to start selling guns to it's people.
If some don't like it, too bad/so sad, what do they propose to do about it?
Simple....vote Democrat!
I'm voting for Obama cause it sounds so much like Yo- MA- MA! | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/10/2008 6:22:11 PM |
kissnguy said:
homosexuals have no core values
I find that very offensive. What evidence do you have to support such a bigoted claim?
Simple...I never said it. How did you read something I wrote and take it so completely out of context? What I wrote was an example of what I felt the religious conservatives believe...not what I believe. Heres what I said:
{Thats the attitude that offends me the most. That THEY think you have to believe in god to know right from wrong. Or that THEIR moral compass is the only true direction to take. And when THEY say core values, what THEY mean is values that match what THEY think is right. As an example: homosexuals have no core values. }
"THEY" being the Religious Right. And the poster I was replying to said that IHO only god believing people have core values.
Thats ok, no neeed to apologize | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/11/2008 1:12:53 AM | No one understands that seperation of church and state is indeed guaranteed in the constitution. John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin were all against dogma, were tired of the oppression of organized religion, and Benjamin Franklin even questioned the divinity of Christ.
When it comes to religious freedom, people have to understand that it means freedom of religion for all religions, not just your own. The Evangelical community is asking for religious freedom for themselves only because they feel entitled to it. | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/11/2008 4:51:02 AM |
Religion is not forbidden in China, least not to my knowledge. People in China can worship whomever they want.
I was watching a BBC news feed last night. You are absolutely correct. But, a lot of Christians are forced to commune at "house churches", complete with cloak and dagger means of entry and attendance, as they have very real fears of being ostracised by the government. Also discussed were the Muslims in Western China, who the Chinese government take great pains to especially muzzle, probably due to their more "extremist nature". (not my value judgement, theirs) And the current Buddhist spiritual thought is the most sanctioned of all, which is strange, as they only promote peace and self understanding, which in hindsight does promote rational thought....hmmm, but I can remember a thread here about a decree issued by the Chinese government that one is not allowed to believe in reincarnation. I don't know how true that is, but it sure did crack me up.
What the Chinese come down really hard on is if religion attempts to make a foray into the political governing of the country.
It’s a secular governed country and they vehemently enforce that secularism.
Agreed. And it brings me back to my point, why would Bush try to push his religious agenda to this government, and in addition, tell them they will be better if they do so? I can imagine if the Chinese leader went to the US and told the folks there that they would be a better government if they stopped using religion as a moral compass and get rid of evangelical right blocks of voters.....
I can, on the other hand, point to resolutions passed by Congress demanding that freedom of religion should be allowed in China. It is a matter of public policy.
Can you see how outright arrogant this is???? What business is it of theirs how they choose to run their business? The Chinese choose to have a secular society. I do not agree that faith should be hidden or practised in secret, no, but I think the Chinese are actually on to something. That the US Government feels that they have the right to comment and suggest alternatives regarding another country's religious policies is the epitome of arrogance, in my opinion.
Well could it be that my conspiracy theorys are true? There are conservative christians planted in congress and their plan is to sytematically convert the world to a one world religion?
Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say it is a world wide conspiracy, but did anyone watch "God's Warriors" on CNN last night?? Oh my, some scary shite there, wow. Many of Falwell's cronies and evangelicals actually say that their aim is to get a Republican elected so that two of the old folks in the Supreme Court can be replaced with their choice of judges who are staunch advocates of ID, zero rights to homosexuals and gay marriage, criminal abortion legislation and women have no say in the affairs of the church. I swear, I am not making this up.....
Individuals like Bush like to preach 'freedom of religion' and argue their particular faith is being 'suppressed' or 'attacked'.
What in fact really has them all hot and bothered is that their particular religion doesn't currently exercise domination over all others.
What I saw last night certainly does lead one to come to that conclusion. Certainly, those same evangelicals are the same who had a large part in getting Bush elected.
It's a scary scary world that I live in sometimes....
Cheers, Raven | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/11/2008 6:51:06 AM |
{Well could it be that my conspiracy theorys are true? There are conservative christians planted in congress and their plan is to sytematically convert the world to a one world religion?}
Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say it is a world wide conspiracy, but did anyone watch "God's Warriors" on CNN last night?? Oh my, some scary shite there, wow. Many of Falwell's cronies and evangelicals actually say that their aim is to get a Republican elected so that two of the old folks in the Supreme Court can be replaced with their choice of judges who are staunch advocates of ID, zero rights to homosexuals and gay marriage, criminal abortion legislation and women have no say in the affairs of the church. I swear, I am not making this up.....
Raven, I know your not making it up. Thats exactly what I was refering to. It's a movement called "Dominionism" A group of hardcore, fundy extremists that are no better then Islamic terrrorists. And their goal is to replace the constitution with the bible and return to old testament law. Public executions by stoning, flogging, beheading, everything and anything you can think of. I'll try to find the link that explores more about them. Buyt I was reading on that site is one of the leaders of that group regularly has lunch at THE WHITE HOUSE! Im telling you..Bush is doing everything he possibly can to make this happen. Because I also remember reading somewhere else that certain fundy's believe that the reason jesus hasnt returned yet is because the whole world isnt Christian. Hows that grab ya? It's not enough that religion dosent have to pay any taxes, they want the whole ball of wax. | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/11/2008 9:21:37 AM | In regard to China and religious freedom, the government allows registered and approvedreligious groups to operate under strict guidelines and require membership lists be supplied. Groups on this list (not always marginal groups either) are illegal and subject to arrest and imprisonment for illegal meetings. That's not "freedom of religious thought" as we understand the basic Human Right. Therefore, China does not allow this basic Human Right.
<div class='quote'>I can, on the other hand, point to resolutions passed by Congress demanding that freedom of religion should be allowed in China. It is a matter of public policy.
Can you see how outright arrogant this is???? What business is it of theirs how they choose to run their business? The Chinese choose to have a secular society. I do not agree that faith should be hidden or practised in secret, no, but I think the Chinese are actually on to something. That the US Government feels that they have the right to comment and suggest alternatives regarding another country's religious policies is the epitome of arrogance, in my opinion.The issue of the lack of religious freedom in China has nothing to do with them being a "secular" society. It is part of the State's means of control by forbidding or controlling large groups of people.
It's not about one nation telling another nation how to institute religion. I know you really want to spin it this way, but it's about supporting a basic Human Right for all, including Chinese. It's about wanting others to have the same rights you enjoy. I don't know if you can understand that because you seem to have a blind spot when it comes to Christianity, Bush, and Evangelical America. But there it is. Think "Every human being has the right to believe in religion (or not) and practice same (or not) without censure, punishment, or harm, and ever State has the responsibility to protect that freedom."
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kissnguy said: homosexuals have no core values
I said: I find that very offensive. What evidence do you have to support such a bigoted claim?
kissinguy said: Simple...I never said it Of course you did. It's a direct quote. And that's a lot more empirical than making up stuff that other people are supposed to be saying and then attacking them for it. Anyway, I think the lesson has been learned. No charge.
Edit: Do either of you have any proof of these wild conspiracies or are you making it up as you go along? Any proof? Other than anecdotal opinions? Thanks so much if you do. | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/11/2008 9:59:06 AM |
kissnguy said: homosexuals have no core values
I said: I find that very offensive. What evidence do you have to support such a bigoted claim?
kissinguy said: Simple...I never said it
Of course you did. It's a direct quote. And that's a lot more empirical than making up stuff that other people are supposed to be saying and then attacking them for it.
No, I may have typed it, but it's not a belief of mine. Learn to read everything that people post and not just one line and then quote. I said that conservative christians belive that homosexuals have no core values....not that i believe it. And Ive been around enough of them to hear all about how they think they should be executed, run out of the country, etc. And it dosent matter to them if they have no proof that homosexuals have no core values...all they have to do is believe it. You christians should know all about believing in something that has no proof. This is the last time Im going to defend this statement. if you cant read, thats your problem
Do either of you have any proof of these wild conspiracies or are you making it up as you go along? Any proof? Other than anecdotal opinions? Thanks so much if you do.
Wild conspiracies?? Hell, even Fiddler brought them up in a post somewhere a week or so ago. Fiddler...help! | |
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| Bush calls for religious freedom....
Posted: 8/11/2008 10:42:59 AM |
Edit: Do either of you have any proof of these wild conspiracies or are you making it up as you go along? Any proof? Other than anecdotal opinions? Thanks so much if you do.
Well, a real quick Google brought up this stuff....
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/7235393/the_crusaders/
"Most people hear them talk about a 'Christian nation' and think, 'Well, that sounds like a good, moral thing,' says the Rev. Mel White, who ghostwrote Jerry Falwell's autobiography before breaking with the evangelical movement. "What they don't know -- what even most conservative Christians who voted for Bush don't know -- is that 'Christian nation' means something else entirely to these Dominionist leaders. This movement is no more about following the example of Christ than Bush's Clean Water Act is about clean water."
After helping found the Moral Majority in 1979, Kennedy became a five-star general in the Christian army. Bush sought his blessing before running for president -- and continues to consult top Dominionists on matters of federal policy.
italics are mine
"Our job is to reclaim America for Christ, whatever the cost," Kennedy says. "As the vice regents of God, we are to exercise godly dominion and influence over our neighborhoods, our schools, our government, our literature and arts, our sports arenas, our entertainment media, our news media, our scientific endeavors -- in short, over every aspect and institution of human society."
bold is mine
and from:http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm
The appeal to evangelicals went further. On April 29, 1985, Billy Graham, the respected and world famous evangelist, told Pat Robertson’s audience on the 700 Club show that:
“[T]he time has come when evangelicals are going to have to think about getting organized corporately….I’m for evangelicals running for public office and winning if possible and getting control of the Congress, getting control of the bureaucracy, getting control of the executive branch of government. I think if we leave it to the other side we’re going to be lost. I would like to see every true believer involved in politics in some way shape or form.”
According to Schaeffer, Robertson, and Billy Graham, then arguably the three most famous and influential leaders in the American protestant church world, “God’s people” had a moral duty to change the government of the United States.[17]
And it goes on and on and on, not a big secret......
Again, with this agenda, and not human rights issues as you claim, Bush has no right to tell another country that they would be "better".
in the Supreme Court can be replaced with their choice of judges who are staunch advocates of ID,
Just noticed my mistake, I meant to say Creationism.
Cheers, Raven | |
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