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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 8/23/2008 11:33:52 PM | 
One issues that a lot of people in grass roots communities talk about that never makes the media is the appearance of double standards in how laws are up held in court in every state in America. Agents of the state; Police, sheriff, etc get away with anything they want. When they are caught violating a law they rarely get prosecuted, and very rarely if ever do any time.
Here's a few cases in point:
1. The Sean Bell Case in New York.
Many in the black community think that all of those officers should have did some prison time. Legal experts I have talked to say that would not have been possible under any circumstances.
One thing we should take into account as far as this case is concerned is the fact that the firearms that police are issued are semi automatic. meaning they will keep firing until the handler releases the trigger. A defense lawyer could easily argue that it was the heat of the moment, and they were defending themselves, and were not conscious of how many rounds they were firing. That is a legal argument for one clip of bullets.
NOW HERE'S THE TWIST THOUGH. One of the officers emptied one clip, than went through the trouble, and time of digging for another clip, put it in the firearm, and commenced to firing again and emptied that clip for a total of two clips. By the standards of the legal code of any state that constitutes INTENT, MALACE, AND FORETHOUGHT. ANY CIVILIAN WOULD HAVE DID PRISON TIME FOR THAT... WHY DID THAT PARTICULAR GET OFF SCOTT FREE?
QUESTION FOR ANYONE OF MIGHT HAVE WATCHED THE TRIAL ON COURT TV. HOW WAS THE PERFORMANCE OF THE PROSECUTION TEAM? DID THEY PERFORM LIKE NORMAL ADA'S OR DID THEY BOTCH THE TRIAL? I'm coming to why I pose this question in the second scenario. AND YES IT DOES ROUTINELY HAPPEN. WHEN A COP IS A DEFENDANT IN A CRIMINAL TRIAL THE PROSECUTION TEAM WILL BOTCH THE TRIAL.
2. In the Amadou Diallo murder trial also in New York, which involved 4 NYPD officers firing 50 shots at Mr. Diallo in the Vestibule of his residence, and killing him. They were bought to trial on murder charges. I saw that case on Court TV. So I am telling you what I saw with my own eyes. The prosecution team ADA WARNER, AND LIVINGSTON DID NOT PERFORM ANYTHING LIKE PROSECUTORS. WHEN THEY WERE CROSS EXAMINING THE THE DEFENDANTS THEY SOUNDED MORE JOURNALISTS INTERVIEWING FOR A STORY THAN PROSECUTORS TRING A CRIMINAL CASE, STRAIGHT UP!!! Anyone who is interested get transcripts from Court TV and see your self. Some of the hosts of the network, and all of them are lawyers were shocked at the performance of the prosecution team, absolutely shocked!!!
Some speculators believe that's why those officers got off on the criminal charges.
3. OJ Simpson: I am mentioning this one because of DETECTIVE FERMON, ONE OF THE detectives investigating Simson for the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson, and Mr. Goldman. I'M everyone on POF remembers that trial...
DETECTIVE FERMAN from the LA County Sheriff's Department, gets caught PLANTING EVIDENCE on the defendant. THE FAMOUS BLACK GLVOE. Ok let's think about this one here for a moment. What does this type of act constitute in any state legal code in USA? TAMPERING WITH A CRIME SCENE WHICH =OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE OR HINDERING PROSECUTION, OR BOTH. ANY CIVILIAN CAUGHT DOING SOMETHING LIKE THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN INDICTED ON OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE CHARGES BARE MINIMAL, AND UPON CONVICTION WOULD HAVE DID MINIMAL 60 DAYS WORK HOUSE TIME, AND PROBABLY WOULD BEEN PUT ON PROBATION BY THE COURT!!!
INTERESTINGLY THE PROSECUTION TEAM LET DETECTIVE FERMAN SLIDE, NO CHARGES AT ALL. 0 ZIP NADA, NOTHING. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT SINCE THIS COP IS THE ONE WHO CAUSED THEM TO LOOSE THIS TRIAL THAT THEY WOULD HIM HANG DETECTIVE FERMAN FORM THE ROOF OF THE LA COUNTY COURTHOUSE!!! I KNOW IF I WAS AN ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND I LOST A CASE OF MIN BECAUSE OF A COP I WOULD COME AT THAT COP TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW, AND THEN SOME. HE REGRET TAMPERING WITH ANY CASE OF MINE!!!!!
I look forward to reading thoughts on this thread. I suspect I'm going to get some entertaining replies to my writing about Detective Ferman LOL! Hey there are a lot of people to this day still who have strong opinions on the Simpson Trial.
HOPE EVERYONE ON POF IS DOING WELL...
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 8/24/2008 9:05:27 AM | Whats your point? That the police sometimes overeact when dealing
with criminals. Duh....
Considering what the police have to deal with , particularily in high crime areas, Im amazed that it doesnt happen more than it does.
Theres a reason they have the highest suicide and divorce rates.
Some facts. Irregardless of any misconduct by the police, Sean Bell was a thug. A criminal who had been arrested for 2 drugs and 1 firearms charges. The other 2 thugs involved in the incident had long arrest records. People have to take responsibility for how they live their lives. If you live your life like a thug, dont be surprised if you meet a violent end.
OJ simpson is a cold blooded murderer, and if there is a hell, thats where he
is headed, along with anyone who sympathized with him, wanted him to walk, or facilitated him escaping justice for butchering 2 innocent people. | |
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 8/24/2008 9:55:32 AM | First of all you need to get your shit stright, the following is not correct....
"the firearms that police are issued are semi automatic. meaning they will keep firing until the handler releases the trigger"
The firearms that police are issued are semi automatic, this is correct, but a semi-automatic fires 1 shot each time the trigger is depressed. A full-auto or select-fire(when in full-auto mode) will continue to fire until the trigger is released.
As far as your other comments there are bad cops in this world this is true, but there are some good cops too. My question is when will people learn when a cop says stop they mean stop. If you don't stop then be prepared to get shot, stop means stop.
If Bell would have stopped when told to he and his thug buddy's would have been searched and sent home.
I never heard about the other case you mentioned and I don't want to go into the OJ case, OJ is guilty and will rot in hell is all I will say. | |
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 8/24/2008 9:59:35 AM |
Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow? Well, not exactly. Rich and powerful people are similarly immune.
Welcome to the world!
Hope you enjoy your stay.
You will find that your stay here will be much nicer once you learn the rules.
It is possible that we omitted to insert a copy of them in the drawer of your nightstand, but they nevertheless are fairly obvious.
Thank you.
The Management. | |
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 8/24/2008 10:07:56 AM | The Police and government officials to some degree, protect themselves. This happens all the time, it's like the good ole boy network.
By FAR, more celebrities and famous people get off, when they have even been caught on film breaking the law.
Even worse. MILLIONS of illegal aliens have all broken the law. Yet we give them free subsidies, schooling, medical care, welfare, food stamps, etc...
A vast vast majority of these people do not get prosecuted. Some politicians simply view the illegals as a new voting block.
So, i'm more concerned with the millions of law breaking illegals then the tiny few police and government officials that might have got off.
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 8/24/2008 10:18:02 AM | ---just because someone lives their life as a thug doesn't mean they should get shot by police---
Well if they are acting like a thug, aka criminal, it goes to reason that they are
victimizing other people. Thats what a thug does. Maybe if the inevitable consequence of being a thug WAS being shot , there would be a lot less thugs, and a hell of a lot less victims. My sympathies lie with the innocent person who going about their lives
who are preyed on by the bullies and thugs.
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 8/24/2008 12:05:35 PM | Dacu63,
Interesting points:
Bell's surviving friends claim he did not know they were police, that he believed the oncoming vehicle was a group of thugs out to jack them up. It is rather ironic however that (according to reports I have read) Bell drove his vehicle toward the oncoming vehicle. It seems like some facing some thugs in a vehicle would be trying to get away from this oncoming vehicle. It's like any other case though if you were not there it's hard to judge for absolute certainty.
I Understand you point about stopping when a cop yells stop.
The question I am raising here though is AGAIN NOT PERTAINING TO THE OTHER TWO OFFICERS INVOLVED, RATHER THE ONE WHO STOPPED RELOADED, AND COMMENCED TO FIRING AGAIN, AND EMPTIED A WHOLE NOTHER CLIP, HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY THAT WHEN IN THE CRIMINAL THAT CONSTITUTES MALACE, FORETHOUGHT, AND INTENT, EVEN IN TEXAS A STATE KNOWN FOR HAVING VERY LIBERAL FIREARM LAWS A CIVILIAN WOULD NEVER GET AWAY WITH THAT.
Case in point Just recently in Harris County Texas there was a man who was a retired computer programmer for AT&T. He shot and killed two alleged burglars, on his next door neighbors property. He claims he was defending his next door neighbors. He discharged a rifle at them three times, according to reports.
HE DID NOT FIRE CONTINUOUSLY UNTILL THE RIFLE WAS EMPTY, AND THEN RELOAD AND EMPTY THE RIFLE AGAIN, LIKE THE COP IN THE BELL CASE. HE FIRED 3 TIMES.
THERE IS A LAW IN TEXAS PERTAINING TO PROPERTY OWNERS CALLED THE CASTLE LAW. IT GIVES PROPERTY OWNERS NOT ONLY THE RIGHT TO PROTECT THEIR OWN PROPERTY BY LETHAL MEANS, THE PROPERTY OWNER ALSO HAS THE RIGHT TO DEFEND THEIR NEIGHBORS PROPERTY BY LETHAL MEANS.
DESPITE THE CASTLE LAW... HE WAS SUMMONED BY THE HARRIS COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS OFFICE TO APPEAR AT THE COURT HOUSE IN DOWNTOWN HOUSTON BEFORE A GRAND JURY! THIS GUY LUCKED OUT. THE GRAND JURY VOTED NOT TO INDICT. IF THEY HAD VOTED TO INDICT HE WOULD BE AWAITING TRIAL RIGHT NOW FOR TWO COUNTS OF MURDER 2. DESPITE THE FACT THAT HE APPARENTLY ACTED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE CASTLE LAW.
I'm not getting your point about the Simpson case. The question I am raising is not about weather Simpson was guilty or innocent of his murder charges the LA County District Attorney's office indicted him on. The question I am rasing is this.
IS IT RIGHT/FAIR THAT DETECTIVE FERMAN GETS AWAY WITH TAMPERING WITH A CRIME SCENE? THE PROSECUTION TEAM COULD HAVE EASILY INDICTED HIM ON OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE CHARGES AT THE MINIMAL, THEY DID NOT. ANY CIVILIAN WOULD HAVE BEEN INDICTED, UPON CONVICTION RECEIVED 30 OR 60 DAYS WORKHOUSE TIME, AND POSSIBLY PROBATION FOR THAT. THIS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF AN AGENT OF THE STATE GETTING OFF SCOTT FREE WITH AN ACT UNDER THE LEGAL CODE THAT ANY CIVILIAN WOULD BE PROSECUTED FOR. THE QUESTION I AM RAISING HERE IS THIS A GOOD WAY FOR THE LEGAL SYSTEM TO OPERATE? | |
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 8/24/2008 12:43:41 PM |
One issues that a lot of people in grass roots communities talk about that never makes the media is the appearance of double standards in how laws are up held in court in every state in America.
It's interesting that you chose this. Think of the tens of thousands of cops in the country. Yes, cops are people and there is corruption.
But your talking about a teenie tiny small percentage of the thousands of good cops.
Another issue that people in grass roots communities talk about that has a HUGE double standard in how laws are upheld and enforced on the streets and in court in every state in the country, are the MILLIONS of people breaking the law, by breaking into this country.
Are immigrants committing homicides in America. Yes, all the time. And if the crime is violent enough to warrent a death penalty, they can just sneak back into Mexico and live freely there. Mexico will not extradite a murder suspect if they might face the death penalty.
Tampering with crime scenes, seems very unlikely and i'm not sure why you suggested that part.
As far as them not being indicted by the D.A. Just look at San Francisco's sanctuary city policy, which protects illegals criminals that routinely break the law.
So, the point is, your concerned with one tree, when the whole forest is on fire.
One on hand there are a handful of law breakers allegedly immune to the law, on the other hand you have millions of law breakers allegedly immune to the law.
Go figure.
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 8/24/2008 1:25:15 PM |
Agents of the state; Police, sheriff, etc get away with anything they want. When they are caught violating a law they rarely get prosecuted, and very rarely if ever do any time.
You might be interested in the book "Tainting Evidence" by John Kelly and Phillip Wearne. The book basically demonstrates how the FBI crime lab has misrepresented evidence, destroyed evidence, used sloppy procedures, and outright lied in courts in order to strengthen the prosecution's case. The government, in particular the FBI, blocked investigations into this but after whistleblower Frederic Whitehurst went public in 1997 with evidence of this misconduct hundreds of court cases had to be reopened. Some of the cases discussed in the book are Unabomber, Oklahoma City bombing, OJ Simpson, Ruby Ridge, and the World Trade Center bombing. | |
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 8/24/2008 1:34:38 PM | The OP mentions the LA detective Furman( correct spelling) planted evidence and it was proven,OJ's attorney alledged that the glove was planted. They did not prove that he planted the glove.An informed person also knows that leather glove that is saturated with a liquid and allowed to dry quite often will not fit properly when you first try to put it on.
When Mr. Bell came out of the night club and tried to assault the police with his SUV he should have known he was going to be shot.
IT is always better to be educated about your own post before you post it.Semi- automatic weapons are just that semi- Automatic.Duh!!!!!They don't fire automatically. | |
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 8/24/2008 1:38:40 PM | Bear 45408,
Hey did you used to be a stand up comedian? Your post contains entertaining satire.
Sanderic,
I don't think anyone is suggesting there are not good police.
MMM I am going to research San Francisco's ordinance you are mentioning here, very interesting that any city would have such an ordinance. Tell me if I am understanding this right according to your interpretation. Does this ordinance apply to any church within the boundaries of the city? Does this ordinance give illegal immigrants the right to essentially hide out in any church to evade immigration, and law enforcement?
Hey that's a good point you make about Mexico's extradition law. By the way Canada has the same extradition law. I am surprised that Mexico would have such a law. Canada has had theirs for ever. It seems the issues here though is not necessarily America's legal system, and enforcement, rather Mexico's law regarding extradition, and you could argue Canada also as since Canada has the same law. And yes there have been people accused of violent crimes who have fled to Canada, and have been allowed to stay there indefinitely. I don't know about Mexico, Canada will extradite if the DA's office that's pursuing the defendant agrees not to seek the death penalty.
Do you believe that the issues you're raising with illegals is really occurring on that grand of a scale?
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 9/2/2008 4:08:10 PM | One thing we should take into account as far as this case is concerned is the fact that the firearms that police are issued are semi automatic. meaning they will keep firing until the handler releases the trigger.
Fact check....this is a fully automatic description.For a semi it fires as fast as you can squeeze the trigger.Registered legal owners learn this. | |
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 9/3/2008 1:16:13 AM | CountIbli,
That sounds like a very interesting book, I'm going to check that out. They're claiming evidence of misconduct of the 9/11 case ha? It's ironic you bring that up because there is an association of Architects, and engineers who is pressing the Federal Government to reopen the 9/11 investigation. I attended a conference of their local chapter in St. Paul Minnesota. The Keynote speaker at the event Mister Cage demonstrated from a scientific perspective that there is no way the office towers could have been destroyed by the airplanes. His lecture, and demonstrations were so compelling, at the beginning and the end of his lecture he had the audiences show a raise of hands if they believed the governments story. In the beginning 10 people raised their hands. At the end that number went from 10 down to TWO.
The theory of the book authors you're mentioning is plausible because if the Federal Government was the perpetrator of 9/11 as a lot of scientists, and lay people believe, it would certainly make sense for them to enlist the FBI in assisting with suppression of evidence.
Jake you indicated that you have seen cops acting like bullies. What's an example you can cite of this?
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 9/3/2008 7:59:58 AM | I don't know about Jake , but I have witnessed cops acting like bullies several times.
I had my neck broken by a cop that was on drugs and making a false arrest.
The victim was me. He took me by the handcuffs which were behind my back and swung me a full circle before letting me slam into the side of his cruiser.
Then he grabbed my hair and started slamming my head repeatedly into the car.
The whole time people were yelling at him to stop and telling him that he even had the wrong person.
The other cops present were pulling guns and threatening to shoot anyone that tried to stop this madman who was clearly on drugs.
In the end, I sued Ft Lauderdale Fla and was paid off by the police benevolent society.
The day they paid the money his father who was also a cop stomped him into the police parking lot and even kicked in some of his ribs.
His Dad was a very good friend of my cousin who owns the gun shop in down town Ft Laud.
I have seen other cops act with just as much malice towards the public too.
I was sprayed with pepper spray and arrested several years ago and charged with obstruction of an officer for trying to call the cops on a fellow cop that was breaking all the rules and harrassing poeple at a garage owned by a friend of mine.
If you think the cops and others in government care about the people who pay their wages,, think again. | |
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 9/3/2008 8:39:58 PM | What happened to the Mayor of Berwyn Heights, MD, could happen to anyone in the US:
home violently invaded and seriously vandalized by armed thugs, family pets wantonly butchered, family members threatened with arrest, torture, or lethal force for "non-compliance," all done by badge-wearing criminals, who, following "procedure," have apparently done "nothing wrong."
Sure seems like "immunity" to me.
It really seems like something from 1930s Germany.
Next come the mass evacuations of "troublemakers" to forced labor camps, and ultimately...? | |
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 9/5/2008 1:55:39 PM | Beaugrand,
The police of this Maryland town Berwyn Heights invaded the mayors dwelling? Butchered his pets? Threatened his family with torture? MMMMMM. That is VERY USUAL FOR POLICE TO VIOLATE a politician, that is one thing they can suffer repercussions for. Am I reading your post right, there were no penalties for the officers for this, they actually got a way with violating the mayor of their city?
I would appreciate any reference you've got on this story. I would like to read further on this one.
"Next come the mass evacuations of "troublemakers" to forced labor camps, and ultimately...?" You're not alone on this one. There are a lot citizens of America, as well as all the other western countries who are fearing this. There are sections of the Patriot that do make such a think possible.
Nebula22,
I have heard of cases just like your second experience you write about where citizen allegedly sees a police officer committing a crime, they call 911 to report it, the police show up and instead of investigating the citizens allegation they arrest the citizen, and use violent force against them.
Did you complain to Internal affairs, or the Fort Lauderdale Civilian Revue Agency (If there is one in Fort Lauderdale)?
For the record that is what experts on this issue recommend. If you are a victimized by police, or if you witness a officer doing wrong, don't dial 911, try to get their badge numbers, and go to Internal Affairs, or if your city has a Civilian Revue Board (some cities do, some don't) go there to file charges, because in the vast majority of cases the cops are not going to investigate, or arrest one of their own.
Chocolatebrowne,
You say the law is never enforce equally. Why do say that?
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 9/5/2008 2:20:04 PM |
I am not getting your point here. Are you suggesting that there are illegal immigrants in America committing homicides, tampering with crime scenes, etc etc and not being indicted by the DA?
Stats indicate that nearly 30% of the prison inmates of this country at this time are illegal invaders who have been convicted of violent & or drug charges. I think homicide is very likely a popular conviction amongst that bunch of folks. Rape, robbery, etc...are some of the other choices. They not only had the opportunity to tamper with the crime scenes...they created them!
On your original point about law makers, & enforcement agents being held to a different standard: It is sad but very true in some cases. Others; not. There are good guys working in law enforcement & then there are some real Jacka**es making the rest of them look bad. Many cops don't give tickets to people who work in the medical field either on the off chance they find themselves at the recieving end of their care some day.
You can make the very same argument that doctors won't give incriminating evidence in a malpractice case against a fellow doctor in the event that the same doctor or a buddy of theirs may be called upon to give testimony against them some day. It is the "good ol' boy system" and it's hard to crack when it's in full force. I'm not saying don't do anything about it or ignore it. If you see a way to fix the problem, I say Go for it!!!! I just think most everybody else doesn't have a clue what to do about it but is hoping that some day, somebody will figure out a way to straighten it all out.
Let us know if anyone figures it out. | |
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 9/5/2008 11:59:04 PM | In some cases the police and other members of the government are protected by law from prosecution from some of the same laws that we as private citizens go to jail or are found guilty of civil liability.
Many of the civil rights acts have loopholes that protect congress from following the same rules.Your congressman has always been exempt from affirmative action laws. | |
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 9/6/2008 1:55:27 AM | AuroroA,
["Many cops don't give tickets to people who work in the medical field either on the off chance they find themselves at the recieving end of their care some day."] That's an interesting allegation there you're making that police refuse to give medical people tickets when they are in violation of traffic, and parking regulations. I would appreciate any references you have on this, I'd like look this up.
You're saying they give medical people breaks incase they are ever in need of their services. The question this raises why would that make a difference. A doctor is bound by a code of ethics, and by law to treat everyone coming into a hospital for medical services. If they don't they are in DERELICTION OF DUTY, ESPECIALLY IF IT'S A TRAUMA SITUATION.
Do you believe that a doctor would refuse to treat a police officer in need of trauma care if out of spite for getting a parking ticket? If yes what kind of impression does that give you of the medical field?
Eric,
You're claiming that politicians are exempt from abiding by federal affirmative laws. Tell me if I'm understanding you correctly. Does that mean that a senator for example does not have to have any black employees working for him in his office? One could argue not only double standards on this one, also what's the point of having those laws if a black person is guaranteed employments rights in the private sector, yet not the public sector though?
In your opinion should politicians be subject to those affirmative action laws, should a Senator be obligated by law to have a certain number of black employees like a corporation of a certain size and up is?
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 9/6/2008 7:23:54 AM | You're claiming that politicians are exempt from abiding by federal affirmative laws. Tell me if I'm understanding you correctly. Does that mean that a senator for example does not have to have any black employees working for him in his office? One could argue not only double standards on this one, also what's the point of having those laws if a black person is guaranteed employments rights in the private sector, yet not the public sector though?
In your opinion should politicians be subject to those affirmative action laws, should a Senator be obligated by law to have a certain number of black employees like a corporation of a certain size and up is?
It doesn't matter what my opinion is,it matters what the law is.If you research it ,you will find that most laws concerning Civil Rights do not apply to Congress. They can discriminate against you in hiring based on your race,creed, national origin,or religion.That way they can be free to pursue what ever agenda they want even if it is bigoted. For example a Congressman who supports the KKK can hire only whites,or a Black Congressman who hates whites can hire only blacks if he so chooses. | |
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| Are agents of the State immune from the same laws that civilians have to follow?
Posted: 9/6/2008 7:45:10 AM | I'm not saying that the people in the medical field would give less service to a law enforcement officer because they gave them a speeding ticket. I'm saying that police officers don't give tickets as frequently to medical personel just in case they run across one of the bad apples in the medical field who might carry a grudge for the ticket. Like perhaps the stitches wouldn't be done with as much care & detail, but still done to fulfill the medical requirement...just as an example of what could happen.
The world if filled with people. People are human. People come in all sizes, shapes, temperments, & levels of evolutionary evolvement. People will never cease to amaze me with the things they can & are willing to do; both horrific & wonderful. People are just that; people. | |
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