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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 11/22/2008 8:37:21 AM | Where to begin. I read an article on one of my fav sites called democracy now. Its very informative and gives real news about whats going on. I dont know about you but CNN seemed to have a boner for obama and fox had the same for McCain. The two party system never made since to me anyhow, we have abraham lincholn to thank for that crock.
Anyway. I came across an article talking about our recent 700 billion dollar bailout. It seems that the money meant to come back to the consumer has been speant however the banks saw fit. Paying employees, securing merger things like that. Banks accounted for 6% that recieved these cash injections. They're not lending this money to the consumers as agreed upon which issues a breach of contract and washington is in no hurry to correct this.
Democrats of course "caught on" to what was happening and they said nothing. Basically they were told that any talk of this publically could frighten consumers away from the market. Basically they were saying tell If you dare, and start the next great depression. And of course the democrats are all too willing to oblige. I voted for obama not because I liked him but because I believed him to be the lesser of two evils. I always knew in the long run he wouldnt be any different. They're all the same my friends. The only dividing line between democrat and republican is one gives tax breaks to the poor and vice versa.
How do we let this happen? Isnt this a democracy? Aren't we capable of choosing what our governments policies should be? For the first time in my life I feel helpless knowing there is nothing I can do about it.
Im hardly an anarchist. I believe in democracy wholeheartedly. But somehow our government has managed to whore itself out to coorperations right under our noses and only follow whats in their best interests.
I think it should be in everyones best interests to pay attention to whats going on around them. If you care you should definitely check out democracynow.com. Very insightful on issues facing us today
Most people hate polotics and act offended If you have a different view. I dont understand how you can be republican or democratic. I personally like to make my own decisions and give my own views. I dont need a party to accomplish that.  | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 11/22/2008 8:46:41 AM | I see that the Big 3 is also looking for a handout
Why bail out the auto industry when the cause of it's problems are the contract terms with it's United Auto Workers. No business can expect to stay competitive in the market place when they are strong-armed to pay wages/benefits that average $70/hr to employees. (Wages plus overtime premiums, paid vacations coupled with Health care cost)
The average unionized worker made 130,000/year to drill nuts and bolts? No, I'm not kidding. This is one industry where the employees and not it's executives have fleeced their corporation into bankruptcy.
Hopefully Congress will say NO to a bailout. Yet crafty attorneys/lobbyist have already sunk their teeth into expunging yet another subsidy at tax payer expense.
They should allow bankruptcy to clear the slate of union contracts, and incorporate hiring non-union. The average American would love to earn considerably less (say 25-30/hr including benefits) than what this industry has been paying the UAW. | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 11/22/2008 9:10:10 AM |
The average unionized worker made 130,000/year to drill nuts and bolts? No, I'm not kidding. This is one industry where the employees and not it's executives have fleeced their corporation into bankruptcy.
Maybe the union got that much for employees, but guess what, the CEO (who does next to friggin nothing) made 3 times the employees' yearly salary.......in one damn week !!!
Don't start on the unions...don't EVEN start on the unions. The GM CEO got a raise last year to 15 million a year !! Want to tell me what that fool does that warrants that type of
money ?? Also, explain how it is that he DOUBLES his salary while the company manages to lose 39 billion in the same year ? The top 5 execs. (at least the top 5) ALL made over 5 million last year...why ???? And if you think that ANY non union manufacturing job would pay 25 or 30@hr. , you're out of your mind. | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 11/22/2008 10:13:45 AM | The American government is TOTALY controlled by big business and has been for almost 100 years..
The Bush family is in international banking and OIL.
The DuPont family is in explosives as well as chemicals among other things.
What about the Rockefeller family and the Hearst family?
Think about what has been happening for the last 100 years..
Hemp was made illegal so as to remove the natural way of making the things that DuPont and other businesses got patents to make artificially from their chemicals.
Getting yourself written into the law is a sure fire way to make yourself far richer than your competitors.
Congress sold out the American people when they backed the DuPont's, Rockefeller's, and Hearst's as they set about getting rid of the natural competition to their unnatural products.
My grandfather grew Hemp..
Hemp was the most important agricultural product on earth at the time it was outlawed in the US.
Legalizing Hemp and it's medical byproduct marijuana is the first step in changing how things will be in the US.
Henry Ford refused to stop growing Hemp for many years after the laws were passed against it. | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 11/22/2008 10:25:40 AM | | I won't pretend to understand all the intricacies of financial markets or big business, but if the people responsible for 'minding the store' are such geniuses that they can build huge empires making tons of money, why can't they use their big brains to figure out how to clean up their own messes? Isn't a bailout a huge disincentive to fix bad practices? The sad thing is, even if the government hands out cash to all the banks and business with their hands held out, the little guy is still gonna pay. People will still lose jobs and investments and homes. It's difficult to have sympathy for those who have been living high and ignoring the consequences of shady management. | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 11/22/2008 11:42:16 AM | | The ups and downs of the economy are built in. There can't be either steady up or steady down. It works by going up, then coming down, then going back up, then coming back down. When it goes up too far it comes back down. It just went up way too far, so now it comes back down. It will go down too far then start back up. If you have more than enough wealth you don't get hurt when it goes back down. You can make money on a falling economy, not everyone can but some do. Just as some people manage to lose money when the economy is swinging up. A typical worker/consumer doesn't think about the economy except when it gets bad. Then they panic. To have an economy that did not greatly favor the wealthy would require the less than greatly wealthy to pay attention all the time, know how it works, and make choices in their working and spending lives to get the kind of economy they liked. If you just go to work, go to the store and ignore the subject unless it gets really scary, you won't know what to vote on, who to vote for or what to do once it has gone bad. You'll just be freaked out for a while, make do with less, and then be glad when it goes back up again. | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 11/22/2008 8:37:47 PM |
I see that the Big 3 is also looking for a handout
Why bail out the auto industry when the cause of it's problems are the contract terms with it's United Auto Workers. No business can expect to stay competitive in the market place when they are strong-armed to pay wages/benefits that average $70/hr to employees. (Wages plus overtime premiums, paid vacations coupled with Health care cost)
The average unionized worker made 130,000/year to drill nuts and bolts? No, I'm not kidding. This is one industry where the employees and not it's executives have fleeced their corporation into bankruptcy.
Hopefully Congress will say NO to a bailout. Yet crafty attorneys/lobbyist have already sunk their teeth into expunging yet another subsidy at tax payer expense.
They should allow bankruptcy to clear the slate of union contracts, and incorporate hiring non-union. The average American would love to earn considerably less (say 25-30/hr including benefits) than what this industry has been paying the UAW.
Here's a little sweetener for that Fox Flavored Kool-Ade people seem to be drinking these days;
First and foremost, it's not the union workers who designed big, gas guzzling cars for the American buyers, but made fuel efficient, smaller cars for the over seas markets. When everyone and their mother was trying to get the big three to make electric cars available to the U.S. market, it wasn't the unionized workers that refused to do that. When there was legislation to help alternate energy sources develop and prosper, it wasn't the unionized workers that paid lobbyists to defeat those measures.
Do you know that GM actually had an electric car on the road that was stylish and practical for every day use? They would only allow people to "lease" the car. So, when GM decided to take the cars back, the customers who had the vehicles, offered to buy them flat out. GM refused. Not only did they refuse, but they "repoed" the cars and destroyed them. DESTROYED THEM! Why would they do that? When they stopped building Comaros, they didn't stop allowing people to buy them. These were perfectly good cars, that required no gas and needed little maintenance. This was back in the 90's. Imagine how great the technology would be by now if they had kept building on what they started. I could go on and on. Reasons like this are why the big 3 three are falling.
One more thing I find hilarious, is how all the right wing talkers and pundits are clamoring about how the union employees should make concessions. Or, be fired out right and replaced with non-union workers. But, these same Con-servatives aren't calling for the heads of the executives who make piss poor management decisions.
However, with all that said, the big three must be bailed out. But, it must be done with some sort of oversight. There has to be some direction and a time table to pay it back. It worked for Chrysler and Lee Iacocca back in the day. Plus, the U.S. made money off of the deal. It could work much the same way here.
If we let them go under, we loose yet another product made in America. That's not good for the middle and working classes. And, if we let them erase the union contracts we will financially depress an entire region of the country. Not a good thing to do. Unless, of course, you're one of the top executives who gets paid more, because the workers make less.
When will working class people learn that the Con-servative ideals and principles are not in their best interests. They talk a good game, but as the Bible says, know a tree by it's fruit. Look around. Does this fruit look tasty to you? Con-servative ideals, practiced by both Republicans and Demorcrats, are what got us into this economic situation in the first place.
How's that Kool-Ade tasting now?
Lateef | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 11/22/2008 9:31:04 PM |
I voted for obama not because I liked him but because I believed him to be the lesser of two evils. I always knew in the long run he wouldnt be any different. Obama was just elected to office a couple weeks ago, and won't actually take office until January 20, 2009. He hasn't actually done anything yet, because he isn't President yet- what we're seeing is the last dying gasps of the Bush Administration; difficult to see any movement because he can't convince anyone to fix this with tax cuts for the rich. That $700 B handout, the lack of oversight and the resulting chaos was Bush's Treasury Secretary's idea, not Obama's, | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 11/22/2008 10:27:25 PM |
Published: Nov 21, 2008 04:37 AM
Modified: Nov 21, 2008 02:21 AM
"WASHINGTON - If there's a single moment that explains why Congress refused Thursday to give the ailing U.S. auto industry immediate help, it came when Rep. Brad Sherman asked company executives to raise their hands if they'd flown to the nation's capital on commercial airlines.
No hands went up.
Then the California Democrat asked the heads of General Motors, Ford and Chrysler, who were testifying Wednesday before the House Financial Services Committee, whether they were planning to sell their corporate jets and fly home commercial.
Again, no hands went up.
Industry spokesmen explained later that they have travel policies to follow and safety considerations, but the public relations damage had been done."
newsobserver.com: Congress tells Big 3: No plan, no money
Lawmakers say Detroit auto execs failed to prove they deserve a bailout. The private jets didn't help http://www.newsobserver.com/politics/story/1303711.html
How about selling their jets and bailing themselves out? Just a thought
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 11/23/2008 12:10:48 AM | well i believ its not only the car industry but everyone had their hand in on the crisis that america is having ...its the old appendage do not spend what you do not have ....poeple were spending spending spending without consequences and did not care ....and we all know payback sucks but it has to be done and this is why there is aproblem right now .. | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 11/25/2008 9:05:05 PM | Reform, Reform, Reform. Everyone looks to the higher ups for answers, but the truth is we're just as intellignet as the upper crust. The sooner people figure that out the better.
It makes me want to puke when people look for complex solutions to a relatively easy fix. The problems have always lied in the management of things. The only complexity that we face is corruption.
Maybe it doesnt work for the rest of the people, but why fix what works for you? Why would you want to step on your bread and butter? Its sad that we let these people exploit us like this, but no one takes notice until hard times come about I suppose.
We allow our leaders to comit the most obvious criminal acts, and we let them get away with it. Sure questions will be asked, but thats as far as the punishment will ever seem to go. I guess public embarassment is a good alternative to federal prison.
Obama will not bring the change we need. No polotician in washington can do that. We need a leader who actually believes in Democracy and wont back down from the coorporate big wigs even If threatened. Im ready for a president with some balls, but the only way to get that close to the presidency is to be the biggest ass kisser in washington I guess
How can anyone expect change when their only choices are spam or potted meat.... Its absurd absurd like this banana | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 11/26/2008 5:57:16 AM | Yea union workers are to blame. Not the countless billions thrown into garbage advertising,horrible vehicles, hundreds of thousands of recalls,rediculous R&D (how many more million dollar concept vehicles that NEVER go into production do we need) and so on.
Oh but i agree, bailouts are not right. Nobody bailed me out the years i was poor as dirt. Being down and out is the best way to learn to work your finances better. How many kids do we see nowdays that cant move out of their parents because they are 21 and have 30 grand in credit card debt. | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 11/26/2008 6:05:34 AM | Lou Dobbs mentioned this story last night...
Russian analyst predicts decline and breakup of U.S.
MOSCOW, November 24 (RIA Novosti) - A leading Russian political analyst has said the economic turmoil in the United States has confirmed his long-held view that the country is heading for collapse, and will divide into separate parts.
Professor Igor Panarin said in an interview with the respected daily Izvestia published on Monday: "The dollar is not secured by anything. The country's foreign debt has grown like an avalanche, even though in the early 1980s there was no debt. By 1998, when I first made my prediction, it had exceeded $2 trillion. Now it is more than 11 trillion. This is a pyramid that can only collapse."
The paper said Panarin's dire predictions for the U.S. economy, initially made at an international conference in Australia 10 years ago at a time when the economy appeared strong, have been given more credence by this year's events.
When asked when the U.S. economy would collapse, Panarin said: "It is already collapsing. Due to the financial crisis, three of the largest and oldest five banks on Wall Street have already ceased to exist, and two are barely surviving. Their losses are the biggest in history. Now what we will see is a change in the regulatory system on a global financial scale: America will no longer be the world's financial regulator."
When asked who would replace the U.S. in regulating world markets, he said: "Two countries could assume this role: China, with its vast reserves, and Russia, which could play the role of a regulator in Eurasia."
Asked why he expected the U.S. to break up into separate parts, he said: "A whole range of reasons. Firstly, the financial problems in the U.S. will get worse. Millions of citizens there have lost their savings. Prices and unemployment are on the rise. General Motors and Ford are on the verge of collapse, and this means that whole cities will be left without work. Governors are already insistently demanding money from the federal center. Dissatisfaction is growing, and at the moment it is only being held back by the elections and the hope that Obama can work miracles. But by spring, it will be clear that there are no miracles."
He also cited the "vulnerable political setup", "lack of unified national laws", and "divisions among the elite, which have become clear in these crisis conditions."
He predicted that the U.S. will break up into six parts - the Pacific coast, with its growing Chinese population; the South, with its Hispanics; Texas, where independence movements are on the rise; the Atlantic coast, with its distinct and separate mentality; five of the poorer central states with their large Native American populations; and the northern states, where the influence from Canada is strong.
He even suggested that "we could claim Alaska - it was only granted on lease, after all."
On the fate of the U.S. dollar, he said: "In 2006 a secret agreement was reached between Canada, Mexico and the U.S. on a common Amero currency as a new monetary unit. This could signal preparations to replace the dollar. The one-hundred dollar bills that have flooded the world could be simply frozen. Under the pretext, let's say, that terrorists are forging them and they need to be checked."
When asked how Russia should react to his vision of the future, Panarin said: "Develop the ruble as a regional currency. Create a fully functioning oil exchange, trading in rubles... We must break the strings tying us to the financial Titanic, which in my view will soon sink."
Panarin, 60, is a professor at the Diplomatic Academy of the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and has authored several books on information warfare.
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That's a mighty big prediction. Normally I would say 'hog-wash'... but all things considered... nothing would surprise me at this point. BEWARE EVERYBODY!!!! | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 11/26/2008 6:14:36 AM |
He even suggested that "we could claim Alaska - it was only granted on lease, after all."
Wishful thinking. I guess some Russians have seller's remorse. The Russians sold that territory to the US. | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 11/26/2008 8:43:34 AM | Do you know that GM actually had an electric car on the road that was stylish and practical for every day use? They would only allow people to "lease" the car. So, when GM decided to take the cars back, the customers who had the vehicles, offered to buy them flat out. GM refused. Not only did they refuse, but they "repoed" the cars and destroyed them. DESTROYED THEM! Why would they do that? When they stopped building Comaros, they didn't stop allowing people to buy them. These were perfectly good cars, that required no gas and needed little maintenance. This was back in the 90's. Imagine how great the technology would be by now if they had kept building on what they started. I could go on and on. Reasons like this are why the big 3 three are falling.
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The ev- 1 was built for a law that never ended up getitng passed.
It wasnt anything special, and they lost money on them in the end.
Camaro is a totaly different proposition as it is a normal car.
They have the volt coming and other Hybrids. So hopefully they can come back. | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 11/26/2008 9:21:41 AM | | If you could afford a PRIVATE jet you are in no position whatsoever to ask the government for money. | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 11/26/2008 10:56:38 AM | They lease them.
If they had car pooled or flown coach, the media would say they are grandstanding trying to look poor.
Its the domestic makers that always cop it in the media even if they make good cars/
While Toyota are saints, can never do wrong. | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 12/5/2008 7:29:12 AM | i do not think its the governmnets job to bail out anyone form the working class al theway to the top .......people were buying stuff they could not afford ...why should the taxpayer help anyone ... ....the car giants were stupid and were warned ....poeple were ignorant and refinancing and did not care so why should the government ,,......people should accept the consequences for their actions ...lack of vision .......i never got myself into a mess ......and scrwed up other peoples life i never got greedy thata the point people got greedy and spent and did not care ..so they should be foreclosed on and suffer ....no one else should have to pay for somone elses mistakes ............and the american car compnaies should fold ...becasue they are ignorant and do not listen or care .... | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 12/5/2008 8:11:46 AM | I"m not happy about the idea of a bail-out for anyone (except me, of course), but US Representative Louie Gohme from Texas has a pretty good idea. Suspend income tax for two months. It would cost less than the bail-outs, and would put the money directly in the hands of the people. He has a web site that explains the whole concept, and if you like the idea, you can register to throw in your support for it.
The other idea I like is to give vouchers for US made, gas efficient vehicles to people who have vehicles more than 7 yrs. old, if they can prove a certain level of income.
We can complain all we like in these types of venues, but the only thing that will really make a difference is if you contact the people in your area that you elected to represent you in Washington, and tell them how you feel. A lot of these people have an eye to be elections in 2010. | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 12/5/2008 9:17:11 AM | I see a little education is needed for folks who subjugate people to a
political ideology, and clearly have no idea their hyperbole filled
assumptions are based on fiction rather than facts.
The very catalyst responsible for are present economical conditions
was created by legislators who failed to see the consequences of government intervention.
Some have postulated the "Community Reinvestment Act" signed into law in the 70's “encouraged” banks to lend to traditionally unqualified applicants, and activist groups such as ACORN that intimidated local banks into loosening their lending standards as one of the culprits for the present credit crunch.
Though Government intervention in markets generally requires flexibility and an ability to tailor rules and principles to specific circumstances, that help what legislators "perceive" to be a failing market, they fail to take into consideration any false assessment of the cause will lead only to costly "solutions" that will only exacerbate the problem.
The problem with politicians is they're all inundated with we-have-to-fix-this-situation- syndrome. Eventually, the financial markets would correct themselves without their help.
Sorry, but I don't drink Kool-aide, nor do I follow the talking points of the brain tarnished right or left.
Gent | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 12/5/2008 12:06:19 PM | | I am against any kind of bailout. I've been in some very hard times over the years and not one bank or one car company or anyone of those rich ceo's would bail me or anyone else out of our hardtime. But when they get in a bind, they expect me to help them out. No Thanks...I have to worry about my own family and we need every dime we get to make it. If they need something to eat- I would be kind enough to offer them that though. | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 12/5/2008 12:29:20 PM | | Passionate: that view is a bit outdated, as even the staunchest arch-conservatives realized that the government had a role in mitigating economic downturns. Part of the problem of the great depression is that governments took too long to start spending, thus, prolonging the depression to a point where only astronomical spending could drag the economy back up again. If the markets were self-correcting, it wouldn't have taken ww2 to fix it. | |
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10of6
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Joined: 8/27/2008
Msg: 23 | |
| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 12/5/2008 3:50:04 PM | I'd like to know where was all the Congressional angst when creditable news sources reported that the $12B in cash sent to Iraq ended up...gulp...missing! No Congressional inquiry, no followup news reports, no GAO investigations, no Inspectors General knocking on generals' doors over there.
Greed takes us down like few viral epidemics can. Although smallpox is back (to a degree). | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 12/5/2008 4:04:23 PM | Whats good for GM and Ford is good for America.
It would be terrible if they went to the wall.
All the jobs in the companies and suppliers.
Plus American prestige.
Remember pearl Harbor - buy domestic. | |
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| Bail out mind phuck
Posted: 12/5/2008 4:25:07 PM | The problems are multi-layered and complex. There isn't one single domino that knocked down the whole stack.
Going back to 2001, the news of Enron shocked and stunned and caused some laws to be changed. What happened and how and even explaining the terms like "off-balance sheet accounting" would require knowledge beyond what the average investor would be able to understand. What those laws did make happen is that the quarterly and annual reports filed by public corps are more complex, meaning more time (money) spent by the corp on staff and auditors. Costs as we know get passed onto the final consumer. The SEC is obviously not sufficiently staffed to discover irregularities until the company's top brass has already cashed in their options, parachutes and other buyouts and are cruising on their yachts leaving others to meet with the SEC investigators. That happened not only with Enron, but many times since.
IMO this would point to two things - first you can write enough laws or hire enough government investigators or enforcers to prevent high level exes from giving into flat out obscene greed. Never will happen. Secondly, with the advent of the internet and the exponential increase in internet business migrating from brick and mortar (beginning with Amazon in 1995) and the creation and explosion in volume and types of retirement and other types of investments, the bulk of investors are not individual investors (even the wealthy) but what are called institutional investors, buying and selling for mutual funds, etc.
Bottom line is investing and managing a portfolio in the stock market today is beyond the capability of most any individual. The bulk of the buying and selling isn't Grandma and Grandpa cashing in their GM stocks, it's a totally different market. Still at the very basic level, the public corporations are "publicly" owned. Many of the stockholders (owners) do not attend the stockholders' meetings, read the quarterly/annual reports and vote, even by proxy. The decisions about who the executives are going to be and how they are to be paid are made by a very small group of people. The BOD is elected and they appoint the executives. The power over what happens is within a very small, elite group that is only driven by one motive........profit.
There won't be a simplistic or short term solution. There definitely needs to be a shift of power, from the government back to the people who elect the officials, the people need to hold them to a higher standard of accountability and the stockholders need to do the same to the BOD and executives.
History does bear out that all too often, it's a very few people that dictate to the majority and are very reticent to relinquish any shred of power, nor have any concern for the masses they are responsible for serving. It'll be up to all of us to be as informed and involved as we can possibly be. The less the voters and stockholders know, the easier it is to carry on as usual, without having to be held accountable. This isn't anything new. | |
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