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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/7/2008 8:30:02 PM | are you still arguing with someone after they've died and is not longer a part of your life ?
i did'nt like my father's victorian values and introvertness ...and at the same time he was a very big man and dish out a brutal beeating when i was just a child ( which is one of the reasons why i did'nt like him very much ) !am i wrong to refuse to go to his grave ? | |
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/7/2008 8:41:23 PM | the way I see it....going to someones grave is an act that is to make YOU feel better. If it isnt something you want to do OR if it isnt something that you think you will get anything out of....then dont go.
dealing with death is a personal thing...there is no right or wrong...
Good luck to you~ sounds rough | |
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/7/2008 8:54:21 PM | I said I was finished dealing with his death. And then a wise friend quite casually asked me when I had last visited his gravesite.
"Umm... the day he was buried 2 years ago. But, visiting a gravesite is meaningless"
hmm, said my wise friend, "Ya think maybe the not going suggests that maybe you're not as finished with it as you think you might be?"
So I went. I didn't *want* to go and I didn't think I would get anything out of it.
It was powerful and emotional. I didn't expect that. I honestly thought I would be telling my friend I had gone and was right that I was finished processing his death. I hadn't, not the final part of it that I can't adequately explain.
It completed it for me.
My advise? Go. Go do whatever comes up for you... yell at him, cry, speak quietly, say nothing ... be sad, be angry, feel your hurt, have regret or no regret.... trust whatever it is you feel, however it surfaces for you. | |
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/7/2008 8:58:31 PM | Wow Margo...I have never been to mine...but, I never go to anyone's? Never saw it that way...I never saw the point?
I talk to mine all the time OP...and sometimes I even worry that if he sees all the dumb things I've done he is up there getting mad at me...lol..
It is important to deal with the feelings, or they will just affect your life in subtle and negative ways...you need closure...and to forgive if possible...JMO... | |
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/7/2008 8:59:10 PM | I don’t think you are wrong at all to not want to go to his grave, but I do think you need to find closure. If you are finding yourself dwelling on this then you need to find peace. Finding someone to talk to about the abuse you suffered as a child is the best thing you can do for yourself, your family and any relationships you have or may have down the line.
When you find yourself arguing with him, remember YOU have the last word. | |
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/7/2008 9:44:44 PM | You need to come to terms with yourself. are you a father? are you always right in you life? you need to understand that first he was your dad, without him, there would be no you. he was not perfect, and yes he might have done things that were wrong, but maybe he didn't have the skills to do the right thing by you. maybe he loved you more then you will ever know and he was not able to show.
you play basketball? or golf? you ever take that perfect shot and miss? what did you do next? quit, pack it up and then spend the next four years being pissed about it?
go to his grave, tell him how you feel about the things he did, then tell him you love him and forgive him and then pray that you will be a better father to your children, then GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE. | |
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/7/2008 10:10:57 PM | You know, OP, some people aren't meant to be parents. They lack an empathetic quality which is needed to care for a child. So they ignore, or take advantage of superior strength - or rage against their own unfortunate childhood.
Do you have children? If you do, you'll know what it takes to be a good parent. And it is your chance to recreate your own childhood. Give your child the parent you so sorely lacked and missed.
In the meantime, I do suggest counselling, if only to help you verbalise your anger and disappointment and then to be able to understand how to forgive and move on.
Good luck. It sounds like you're still grieving - for him and for you. Peace, OP.  | |
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/7/2008 10:20:18 PM | You don't need to go to a dead mans grave to tell him what he did to you .. that can be done right in your own home or anywhere you are. The guy took a few things from you and all you need is to get them back .. NO WHY ... because no one had the right to take them from you in the first place.
For the ding bats who say that he was your dad.. lemme tell yah that no dad beats his son.. 802 mark .. I dunno where you gained your insight but I'd say it is way. way off... NOT PERFECT... that is a dad who forgot to pick up something that you needed for school not a person who beats his kid. Do you actually have any idea what kind of indelible marks that are left behind in the wake of abuse, there is a little kid inside every single grown adult ... and this guy's kid lost a part of life that no one had the right to take away....
Living in fear and the inability to express who you are or who you should be leave deep passages of loss, there is a suspendedness to a life that has been damaged but luckily you are seeking inside to move beyond . There is no past tense to how this guy made the OP feel, he has been living with it everyday of his life since he was a little boy, now he knows he is ready to deal with the pain and move forward from this. Most importantly you need to recognise inside yourself that in no way ever did you ever deserve to be abused, there is nothing a little boy does that warrants any form of physical and emotional abuse. Your dad learned this from whence he came .
You need to spend some time talking to someone who is skilled in the healing of this damage.. Clearly you are ready to express and heal the ghosts that live inside you .. and allow that little guy inside to be at peace for the man you are to be all you can become. Try a support group .. I know it sounds very scary to take this beyond yourself but if you can it would bring insightfulness for you.
You are on the path and thru this you will become a whole. You need to relearn that it is okay to live and you need to do that amongst the living who are either experienced in this field or a really good companion with alot of common sense. I have a feeling that not only will you heal from this but you will prevail very successfully to give others the insight and energy to be at peace from these same childhood dilemmas within themselves .
No grave visits are needed to put the past to rest .. this is your life from inside and a grave site visit is totally unnecessary to relate to what is already inside you. When you have healed and resolved the past and your little boy is at peace you might want to visit but at that point you will be whole and ready to see who you were behind you .. in who you are in front of you .. and who you are beyond. I wish you a speedy recovery and a life of strength and warmth and peacefulness that you deserve. | |
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/7/2008 10:25:56 PM | | Each person is on their own journey in life. Certainly at this stage, there is nothing that you can say or due will change things that happened in the past. It is not enough to forgive what your father may have done. You need to accept and forget as well. Everyone has flaws. The only thing that you can strive for is to be better than who you are. | |
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/7/2008 10:41:50 PM |
and at the same time he was a very big man and dish out a brutal beeating when i was just a child ( which is one of the reasons why i did'nt like him very much ) !am i wrong to refuse to go to his grave ?
As a victim of abuse dished out by my own father, I can tell you that the scars don't heal but they subside when you learn to forgive. My father is still alive, but you can bet there were days when I wished he wasn't. I'm sorry for your loss, but refusing to go to his grave is allowing him to still have power over you. Correct me if i'm wrong, but the reason you refuse to go to his grave is because you are still angry at him for what he did to you. I understand 100%. Get yourself to therapy, some people can still hold a great power over you, even from the darkest of graves. | |
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/7/2008 11:36:25 PM | OP....I think you should go. And here is the main reason why.........
Each one of us struggles a battle from the time we are born till the time we die. And in this day and age, with divorce rates as high as they are..... with, or as kids ourselves, who don't or didn't get the benefit of a two parent household.....or those who have been abused or neglected by either or sometimes both parents......our BIGGEST choice in life comes at the time we look at who we ultimately wish to be. Do we want to be JUST LIKE our parents were? Or do we wish to be NOTHING like our parents were.
If your parent(s) were good ones.....chances are, we will want to be like them. But if you're parent's weren't, then you still have TWO choices: Again...to become just like them...passing or reflecting back all their hurt, pain and hate that they gave to us.....or being NOTHING like them, and in fact, exemplifying what you WISHED they WOULD of or COULD have been. Make sense???
So when you go to that grave....... you are saying to your father, "Dad, I'm making a CHOICE to BE the person I wished YOU would have been....... So with that choice comes compassion, love and forgiveness for you....Because that's what I would have wanted from my father as his son. Even if I don't like what you did or didn't do.....you at least gave me life enough to be able to make the CHOICE to become the man I both want to be.....the man I know I can be... and the man I wish you now to be in your peace........For I wish to be nothing like you. And because of that, I can now stand here face to face with you......and forgive."
There is a grave I visit every time I'm near St. Augustine, Florida. And everytime I go, I take an unfiltered Pall Mall (disgusting things....) and a small bottle of Bacardi 151. I light the cigarette and stick it vertically into the grass of an unmarked grave. I then offer the man a drink... And I sit and talk to that patch of grass the way I would have wanted to talk to the man laying underneath as if I didn't remember that he left me at fourteen, never to really be seen again. I would have wanted to say something to him before he died on the operating table eight years later, but never got the chance. So I take my chances now...... I stay there until the cigarette is literally an ash standing straight up, knowing he got the very last puff..... I do it because I wanted to let him know that I turned out OKAY, and he would have been proud......because I had a choice to.
Just sending these lyrics along OP...... Oddly enough, the first time my mom heard this song, her very words were....'this reminds me of you....'. I think it reminds me of a lot of people..... Thought you could use it........ By the way....great post OP..... We need more of these types...... PEACE....
The Living Years by Mike and the Mechanics....
Every generation
Blames the one before
And all of their frustrations
Come beating on your door
I know that Im a prisoner
To all my father held so dear
I know that Im a hostage
To all his hopes and fears
I just wish I could have told him in the living years
Crumpled bits of paper
Filled with imperfect thought
Stilted conversations
Im afraid thats all weve got
You say you just dont see it
He says its perfect sense
You just cant get agreement
In this present tense
We all talk a different language
Talking in defence
Say it loud, say it clear
You can listen as well as you hear
Its too late when we die
To admit we dont see eye to eye
So we open up a quarrel
Between the present and the past
We only sacrifice the future
Its the bitterness that lasts
So dont yield to the fortunes
You sometimes see as fate
It may have a new perspective
On a different day
And if you dont give up, and dont give in
You may just be o.k.
Say it loud, say it clear
You can listen as well as you hear
Its too late when we die
To admit we dont see eye to eye
I wasnt there that morning
When my father passed away
I didnt get to tell him
All the things I had to say
I think I caught his spirit
Later that same year
Im sure I heard his echo
In my babys new born tears
I just wish I could have told him in the living years
Say it loud, say it clear
You can listen as well as you hear
Its too late when we die
To admit we dont see eye to eye | |
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/8/2008 3:04:45 AM | Dear OP,
I think HowBigIsYourLove's post summed it up for me better than I could ever have.
Theres no need to go graveside visiting.
All it will do is depress you,..no end.
You can send out your thoughts to your father anytime you like from inside your head,.. and you can resolve your justified anger in your own head too.
Your father was wrong, he did you some damage,.. and you know what? You dont even have to forgive him that hurt if you dont want to, now or ever.
I know this is contrary to what most think you need to do,.. forgiveness is essential to 'move on'.. most will say, but I dont believe it is.
Recognise that he was a b***** to you,.. and its ok to say that, just because he's passed, he hasnt suddenly become an angel,..
The way I got inner peace with a Father that was 'less than perfect'.. was to say, he shouldnt have had kids,.. he wasnt fit to have me in his life.. he's done some damage,.. but I resolve to learn a lesson from him,.. and never ever be like him.
Even bad experiences can teach us positive things,.. even if is just to not repeat them, in ourselves.
Now, if you are the sort of person who can do it,.. I'd say, recognise that you'll always be angry with him.. but that you can feel pity for him, because he obviously was a pathetic man,.. and that you can wish him peace, because what he did no longer has the power to hold you back.
You've grown now,.. and you can be anything you want to be. he has no influence over your life anymore.. exept that which you choose to give him. Never mind grave visits, or long counselling sessions, or therapy that just brings up old pain over and over again. All that does is keeps you brooding over it. It was a bad chapter in your life,.. its done, he's done.. its gone. Breathe a sigh of relief, its over,.. and go about your business, be the best, most kind person you can be.. and forget about giving this or him any more thought.
Be happy, OP. | |
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/8/2008 3:37:07 AM | Hey OP- I think you need to just shrug your shoulders and get on with things.
My father is still alive, just, even for the last ten invalid years he has been a tyrant and crushed the life out of my dear mum. They slept in separate rooms since 1970, separate beds since 1961. I don't feel any love for him even now, and I know I overcompensate with my children for the dysfunctional family life he bestowed upon us all, and as Howbigisyourlove mentioned, the true loving family life we missed out on. I have often thought that when we finally bury him, how I might feel. Truth is, I don't have any feelings for him that I am currently aware of, that may change, it may not. When my Brother died, I would have given any part of me so that he may have lived, my Father didn't even attend the hospital.
Controlling people are just that. They do not control ultimately by power or force, they control you because you are frightened to go against the "system," for fear of the unknown, for fear of ostracization (in my case losing contact with my mother- the amount of times she cried when I said I would never return back to that house) so I never "left the system." At that time, he could go **** himself in hell for all I cared- but now I just see a very frail scared and frightened old man connected to oxygen. And I feel some restrained tenderness towards this new person. I know I have typed about me- but I'm trying to explain that you are definitely not alone. If your father was controlling, and you are used to being under control, freedom is quite liberating, it must be quite scary also. You cannot change anything that has gone before. So you need now to take off that heavy coat, put it in the dustbin, get that best foot forward,- go by a new one. One you like... | |
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Sefra
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Joined: 9/8/2006
Msg: 15 | |
| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/8/2008 3:37:19 AM | Your hatred for your father took several years to develop....so...don't be shocked that it will take several years for you to forget that hating him is NOT worthy of your energy.
It takes time to understand that forgiving someone delivers you from the bondage | |
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/8/2008 3:59:38 AM | Whether you go to his grave or not is your decision. However, if you're still arguing with him 4 years after he's gone, you're wasting a lot of emotional energy. You don't need to let him still control your life. If it were me, I'd get some counselling and figure out how to stop it. BTW, you aren't alone. Lots of people let someone - often a parent - continue to control their life long after the person has any direct influence on it. When we do that, we continue to give *them* the power.
Maybe you might want to go to his grave just to yell at him, tell him he no longer has any control over you, and evict him from your head. Be done with him and move on. | |
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/8/2008 4:13:14 AM | still got good old dad's voice in your head, huh?
lol. i still have my mother's voice in my head and she isn't even dead yet.
i think it's time for you to forgive your dad for all the things you're still mad at him about. think seriously about doing this, then go visit his grave on Christmas day. this is the only time you will ever have to go...
and let me just say.... forgiveness is a whole lot more about you and your willingness to move on, than it is about your dad. think about this some more... i'll bet deep down inside, you know it's true.
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/8/2008 5:52:43 AM | Nope, you aren't wrong. Going to a funeral, going to someone's grave is something a person does for him or herself, it's not for the dead person. If there's nothing in doing either of those things for you, then don't go.
Of course, you could try this angle. Go to his grave and tell him exactly what you think of him, and why you won't be visiting again. That could benefit YOU. It would give YOU the power, and take it away from him. Did you know that if you are still arguing with a dead man, the dead man still has power over you? Take it away from him and let go of your feelings of anger towards him. He will have no power over you when you are able to say you feel "nothing" when you think of him. Not anger, not sadness, nothing.
When it comes to "toxic" parents, dead or alive, I think the child of said parents need to do whatever is necessary to preserve their own sanity and protect themselves as best they can from the poison that is their parent/family member, and not let anyone guilt them into doing anything different. | |
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/8/2008 6:18:45 AM | OP, I'd probably go and talk to someone such as a counsellor. I don't think there's any right way of dealing with this, got to make your own journey (so to speak). It can take a while to sort out, but you don't wanna be arguing with him 20 years from now.
My dad died when I was a kid, a very abusive person, and I could never work out why he didn't love me or us and take care of his family. It took me until I was 35, and a good few years of therapy to understand him. Wasn't until I was watching something to do with Billie Holliday being beaten as a kid that I started crying for him, as he'd been badly beaten himself growing up. By realising how lonely and screwed up he was I guess I actually understood why he'd ended up the way he was, but I didn't forgive or forget as don't think I'll ever really get why someone treats their kids like that. Maybe others can forgive... I'm happy with understanding, though some of my friends think forgiveness is the only way.
It helped me by talking to my mother and other family members, but that might not be useful, it depends on how others are dealing with it, but it may be good to talk it through somehow, with someone, then you can decide if going to the grave useful. I think I've been twice in 20 years, and I may go again as not been since I understood him a bit more. Good luck anyway, by coming on here to mention it you're making a step in working it out. | |
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/8/2008 9:12:32 AM | Dear OP,
Sorry for your loss, because that's what it was, you never had a chance to confront him and try to understand and work through things. So, I'll pass along something someone once said to me that helped me a lot "We are all victims of victims" Our parents were victims of their upbringing and the shortcomings of their parents too, it just goes back and back. If you're a better man than your father was, then somebody did something right (that includes you). I hope you can find a way to make peace with your past and not carry it with you into the future. Just one more pass on: When we argue with a part of our past it means that on some level we think it can be changed, it can't, it's our past and we just have to accept that and move one. Good luck to you. | |
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/8/2008 9:56:38 AM |
why was'nt he able to show it then
Who knows? Why did my mother give me up for adoption? She say's because it was too much for her,she's a mean and spiteful woman who gives my sister hell because she will put up with it and I won't.
It's all about forgiveness,a very hard thing to do..but an important thing to do for your sake.The things that happen to us in the past get dragged into the present a lot and it's like swimming with an anchor around your neck.
You will never know why he did certain things,there may never be any answers but in the end you have to make the choice to forgive and forget or not,go to his grave site and tell him all of your hurt,your worries,your wants and hopes.
Then say goodbye and try to move forward,it won't be easy but it is possible. | |
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/8/2008 10:30:28 AM | am i wrong to refuse to go to his grave ? Yes, because it's just a grave in the dirt. Go to the one in your heart first and pay homage.
I thought I could not love my father, yet thoughts of him close to death bring tears to my eyes almost every day. Memories don't die, but you can come to piece with them, and let them be, and let them go.
Human beings are just human beings. They do what they can and, often, they err. Sometimes, they just can't see further than their own nose.
Nobody needs resentment: it's the greatest hindrance to personal piece. | |
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/8/2008 7:42:24 PM | Reading through this thread made me look back at my early years living under my father's tyrannical, cold, and very, very strict rule. He had never been shown love by those who raised him, and therefore did not know how to show it to his children. He only knew how to dole out discipline...usually with a belt or a paddle, not with words.
He was one of those fathers who would ask you why you didn't get 100% if you came home with a 99 on your report card. There are so many more memories...not all bad though, that stay with me even now.
He passed away 22 years ago, and for 20 of those years I held on to my hatred. I am finally free of all those feelings...and thoughts...that held me prisoner.
Take the words of the previous poster to heart...and don't forget them.
Nobody needs resentment: it's the greatest hindrance to personal peace.
I am proof that a life lived without regrets is better than one in which we wallow in the what ifs. Forgiving my father, even though he is not here to hear the words or see the truth of them in my eyes, is the best thing I ever did for my sanity and my inner peace. | |
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vedin
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Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 24 | |
| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/8/2008 8:13:53 PM | This is a really good topic-thanks for starting it.
Loving any member of your family is not mandatory. Your feelings belong to you and are not right or wrong; they just are!
Now you can ask do you have a duty of care towards your family. Obviously if they are your children the answer is yes. For everyone else it’s a matter of discretion.
If a parent is abusive towards a child, then it is not surprising that the child in turn will resent that parent. The abusive parent is has initiated the causes of that resentment held by the child, and it is the child who suffers as a result. There is a lot of worthy talk about the value in forgiveness but this is an option not a requirement!
You are being authentic when you refuse to visit his grave. What you need to do is give yourself permission to feel whatever you feel without judging yourself negatively.
It saddens me to see you admonishing yourself for something that wasn’t your fault, while your father resides peacefully in his grave. Your life belongs to you now – embrace your freedom and be a better man than he was.
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| why am i still arguing with my father 4 years after we buried him ?
Posted: 12/9/2008 4:46:56 PM | OP, I'm so sorry for your sad childhood. you're still arguing with your father because you have unresolved issues with him. I agree with the other posters who suggested you get some therapy. good idea! it'll be painful and hard work, but eventually you'll get to a place where the tapes stop playing in your head. your counsellor will probably suggest that you write a letter to your father and tell him everything you need to.
you also do need to forgive him. sounds dumb, I know, but it really is necessary. my own father wasn't very open with his emotions, could be verbally abusive at times and was hard to get deep into, ya know? he was downright scary sometimes. I finally worked out my stuff with him after he died, understood how his childhood was and forgave him. I'll never forget some things, but that's impossible, unless you have a frontal lobotomy. best you can do is write the letter, forgive him and move on.
you may want to bring the letter to his graveside, read it to him and burn it there. leave your unhappiness there with the ashes.
good luck, sweetie.  | |
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