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 Author Thread: Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
 Feral

Joined: 4/10/2005
Msg: 1
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Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/7/2008 10:11:15 PM

(CNN) -- An atheist sign criticizing Christianity that was erected alongside a Nativity scene was taken from the Legislative Building in Olympia, Washington, on Friday and later found in a ditch.

The Freedom from Religion Foundation had a placard up in the Legislative Building in Olympia, Washington.

An employee from country radio station KMPS-FM in Seattle told CNN the sign was dropped off at the station by someone who found it in a ditch.

"I thought it would be safe," Freedom From Religion Foundation co-founder Annie Laurie Gaylor told CNN earlier Friday. "It's always a shock when your sign is censored or stolen or mutilated. It's not something you get used to."

The sign, which celebrates the winter solstice, has had some residents and Christian organizations calling atheists Scrooges because they said it was attacking the celebration of Jesus Christ's birth.

"Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds," the sign from the Freedom From Religion Foundation says in part.

The sign, which was at the Legislative Building at 6:30 a.m. PT, was gone by 7:30 a.m., Gaylor said.

The incident will not stifle the group's message, Gaylor said. Before reports of the placard's recovery, she said a temporary sign with the same message would be placed in the building's Rotunda. Gaylor said a note would be attached saying, "Thou shalt not steal."

"I guess they don't follow their own commandments," Gaylor said. "There's nothing out there with the atheist point of view, and now there is such a firestorm that we have the audacity to exist. And then [whoever took the sign] stifles our speech."

Gaylor said that police are checking security cameras pointed at the building's entrances and exits to see if they can see anyone stealing the sign.

"It's probably about 50 pounds, " Gaylor said. "My brother-in-law was huffing and puffing carrying it up the stairs. It's definitely not something you can stick under your arm or conceal."

The Washington State Patrol, which is handling the incident, could not be reached for comment.

Dan Barker, a former evangelical preacher and co-founder of the group, said it was important for atheists to see their viewpoints validated alongside everyone else's.

Barker said the display is especially important given that 25 percent of Washington state residents are unaffiliated with religion or do not believe in God. (A recent survey by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found 23 percent of Washingtonians said they were unaffiliated with a religion and 7 percent said they didn't believe in God.)

"It's not that we are trying to coerce anyone; in a way our sign is a signal of protest," Barker said. "If there can be a Nativity scene saying that we are all going to hell if we don't bow down to Jesus, we should be at the table to share our views."

He said if anything, it's the Nativity scene that is the intrusion.

"Most people think December is for Christians and view our signs as an intrusion, when actually it's the other way around," he said. "People have been celebrating the winter solstice long before Christmas. We see Christianity as the intruder, trying to steal the holiday from all of us humans."

The scene in Washington state is not unfamiliar. Barker has had signs in Madison, Wisconsin, for 13 years. The placard is often turned around so the message can't be seen, and one year, someone threw acid on it, forcing the group to encase it in Plexiglas.

In Washington, D.C., the American Humanist Association began a bus ad campaign this month questioning belief in God.

"Why believe in a God?" the advertisement asks. "Just be good for goodness sake."

That ad has caused the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority to field hundreds of complaints, the group said, but it has heard just as much positive feedback, said Fred Edwords, the association's spokesman.

Edwords said the ad campaign, which features a shrugging Santa Claus, was not meant to attack Christmas but rather to reach out to an untapped audience.

Edwords maintains the campaign began in December mostly because the group had extra money left over for the year. The connection to Christmas is a coincidence, he said.

"There are a lot of people out there who don't know there are organizations like ours to serve their needs," Edwords said. "The thing is, to reach a minority group, in order to be heard, everyone in the room has to hear you, even when they don't want to."

The ad campaign, Edwords said, is to make people think. He said he doesn't expect to "convert" anyone.

But the Christian Coalition of America is urging members to oppose the advertisements.

"Although a number of humanists and atheists continue to attempt to rid God and Christmas from the public square, the American people are overwhelmingly opposed to such efforts," Roberta Combs, the group's president said in a press release.

"We will ask our millions of supporters to call the city of Washington, D.C., and Congress to stop this un-Godly campaign."

As far as the criticism goes, Edwords said there are far more controversial placards in Washington.

"That's D.C. -- this is a political center," he said. "If I can see a placard with dead fetuses on it, I think someone can look at our question and just think about it."

The anger over the display in Olympia began after it was assembled Monday. The sentiment grew after some national media personalities called upon viewers to flood the phone lines of the governor's office.

The governor's office told The Seattle Times it received more than 200 calls an hour afterward.

"I happen to be a Christian, and I don't agree with the display that is up there," Washington Gov. Christine Gregoire told The Olympian newspaper. "But that doesn't mean that as governor, I have the right to deny their ability to express their free speech."

For some, the issue isn't even that the atheists are putting their thoughts on display, but rather the way in which they are doing it.

"They are shooting themselves in the foot," said iReport contributor Rich Phillips, who describes himself as an atheist. "Everyone's out there for the holidays, trying to represent their religion, their beliefs, and it's a time to be positive."

The atheist message was never intended to attack anyone, Barker said.

"When people ask us, 'Why are you hateful? Why are you putting up something critical of people's holidays? -- we respond that we kind of feel that the Christian message is the hate message," he said. "On that Nativity scene, there is this threat of internal violence if we don't submit to that master. Hate speech goes both ways."
And the plaque in question reads:
At the season of THE WINTER SOLSTICE may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds.


Okay. So. The article pretty much stands on its own, but I'm curious what others' views on the whole deal are. Mostly, I can honestly see points on both sides. While it's essentially a free speech issue, and I entirely agree with some of the sentiments (good for goodness' sake, indeed), I noted that some of it was, if not overtly so, at least subliminally hypocritical. On both sides, imagine that.

Of course, you've got the self-evident examples of judgmental "non-judgmentalism" on behalf of those representing religion (paraphrased: "We should be authorised to put up our religious stuff, even if it's not actually the meaning of, or even truly associated with the season, but anyone else, with a contrary message shouldn't.") And, I do confess I got that mean little frisson of satisfaction over the "thou shalt not steal" note. . .

However, one ought also to acknowledge the double-standard inherent in the atheist message, as well. Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with them exercising their right to post signs or make statements of their belief (that's essentially the point, isn't it?). But, consider the rationalisation in defence of the signs. The signs themselves advocate critical thinking, rationalism, logic, yes? But, the "we feel like we're being threatened by Nativity scenes, so we're just firing back" rationalisation is entirely emotional (read: irrational).
I also have to say that I don't buy the initial "we just want to be heard, like everybody else" thing, particularly when there's a history of "counterrevolutionary" (for lack of a better word) reactionism, and the fact that the sign was originally erected, what, next to a Nativity? Yeah. Not to say it's necessarily a bad thing. The contrast reinforces the. . . well, the contrast. The whole "faith v. reason" gig, arguably, right? But, to downplay that as an intention or deciding factor rings significantly hollow, at least to my mind.

Finally, there's the media and their obvious bias, leading off with an implication of a statement contrary to religion as specifically aimed at a particular religious path. So, I'm asking folks how they themselves, hopefully using their own minds, view the issues of counterreligious sentiment and the arguably inconsistent response from those who take offence.
 Vancer

Joined: 10/29/2006
Msg: 2
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Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/8/2008 1:26:42 AM
The sign sounded antagonistic.
Maybe it should have read 'Happy Winter Solstice everyone!'.
Then if it was taken down, there's something wrong going on.
 andyaa

Joined: 12/20/2006
Msg: 3
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Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/8/2008 3:35:59 AM
I think the word we are missing here is tolerance.

So what if someone wants to celebrate the birth of someone, why would anyone feel that strongly about a group of people to first put the sign up and then the other group to tear it down.

Ok, if the sign had said ‘no blacks allowed’ or the sign was protesting about some criminal act that was being committed there then I can appreciate why people would want to object. Ffs it’s only a nativity scene and it’s only a sign saying that god doesn’t exists. Basically 2 conflicting ‘opinions’.

The trouble is that people fear the worst in others…religion can be the cause of great wars and can make good people do bad…So can science, many organisations in the scientific field spend huge recourses in finding better ways to kill and injure people more efficiently.

Like you said, apart from the freedoms issue, for which I would fight to uphold even though I may not agree with the action…Smoking being one of them, I would not want to ban your right to smoke as that is your freedom to chose, however I also have the freedom to chose not to. Education is the way to show people that what they are doing is not only hurting themselves but others and not to take a proactive aproach to resolve the issue.

Maybe science should hold its own creation scene, have a day in the year where they celebrate the Big Bang, today 13.7 billion years ago the universe was created.
 Feral

Joined: 4/10/2005
Msg: 4
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Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/8/2008 12:51:58 PM

The sign sounded antagonistic.
Maybe it should have read 'Happy Winter Solstice everyone!'.
Then if it was taken down, there's something wrong going on.

I think the word we are missing here is tolerance.
Surprisingly, I'm sure, I agree. To a degree, of course. The placement of the sign was surely calculated for maximum impact, while still being at least nominally non-confrontational. However, it's also a matter of freedom of speech/expression, and it's being taken down is "something wrong".

One thing I've noticed wasn't mentioned in the article, nor is there any direct evidence to conclusively show, is whether the motivation in taking down the sign was religious intolerance or mere brainless vandalism. Folks will, of course, come to their own conclusions, but as I've pointed out with regard to the media's misrepresentation of the sign's message, we know how easily that can go awry.

Basically 2 conflicting ‘opinions’.
I agree here, too. Conflicting, but one could also argue the effective "seniority" of the one and the therefore arguably antagonistic nature of the "newcomer".

Education is the way to show people that what they are doing is not only hurting themselves but others and not to take a proactive aproach to resolve the issue.
Not sure about the proactive bit, but I think the education thing is sort of the point. Get a message out there (ie., the "good for goodness sake" dealio), and see who digs it enough to actually attempt to learn more, instead of being reactionary (cf. calls to the governor's office, hassling the bus line, etc.).
 Vancer

Joined: 10/29/2006
Msg: 5
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Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/8/2008 3:29:18 PM
I don't think freedom of expression supersedes the right to public peace.
If a sign advertising a new chicken sandwich was up somewhere, I doubt people would prefer if signs saying ...
'Support the systematic breeding and slaughtering of innocent life, simply to appease your tastebuds!'
... were allowed to be put up next to it.
There are less disruptive venues where such arguments can take place.
 oldsoul

Joined: 3/10/2007
Msg: 6
Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/9/2008 6:19:07 AM
There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds.


Gawd forbids that atheists should have the right to say anything that may upset the masses. And gawd doubly forbids (literally it seems) that they should have the right to have an equal voice to counteract the hundreds of "jesus saves" and jesus this and jesus that that one has NO choice but to see/hear/ have shoved down their throats (yes, shoved) unless one barricades themselves inside their houses.

It ALWAYS amazes me that one is encouraged to talk about and question everything in life, but when it comes to religions/faiths/supernatural beliefs, one must remain silent or else be called a heretic, disrespectful, intolerant, closed minded (which is the perfect example of an oxymoron if I've ever seen one), bigoted, a "trouble maker", a "shyte disturber", a rebel, angry, blind (?!?), a "lost" soul, a "lost" sheep, etc. etc.

And so religion/faith is allowed to remain (mostly) unchallenged because to do so means that you are any or all of those things and you are quickly put in your place. And some people will say "oh no...this isn't the way it is DEAR" and to them I say "YES that is the way it is "dear"...in my opinion and according to MY experience. However, to each their own opinions (and experiences) huh?



JMO
 romanticoptimist

Joined: 10/1/2007
Msg: 7
Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/9/2008 6:44:02 AM
I agree that what is missing here is tolerance. The agenda-driven and myopic Mr Barker seems incapable of standing in anyone else's shoes except his own. His presumptive judgements and condemnations are hypocritical and deliberately inflammatory (IMHO). His is not a desire for freedom of speech but for freedom to insult without consequence. He wants to criticize others but wants protection from criticism of his views. Here's a few facts:

1) The presentation of the sign was deliberately insulting, inflammatory, and an exclusive truth claim (as an aside, the exact same wording would be forbidden on this forum)

2) The removal of the sign was wrong.

3) There is NO evidence presented by anyone that the removal of the sign was done by any religious person or persons. That is a conclusion drawn without a shred of evidence to support it.

4) A Nativity scene does not say, "we are all going to hell if we don't bow down to Jesus" as Barker claims. As I've said before, based on my personal experience, the most vocal in proclaiming "hell" are not Christians but some Atheists who seem to need to place those words in Christian mouths in order to justify their own intolerance.

5) It's immaterial to the matter whether the Winter Solstice has been celebrated before Christianity or not. It's also disingenuous of him to claim that's his motivation when it's very clear that his motivation is intolerance and confrontation. He makes a clear distinction between "us humans' and "Christians" demonstrating that he does not consider "Christians" to be a part of the group "us humans", or at the least a lesser part of that group. In fact, his speech reeks of intolerance towards Christians. He also doing a rather good job of being a professional victim.

I think the American Humanist Association's bus ad ("Why believe in a God? Just be good for goodness sake.") is a good example of getting an alternate message across without being confrontational and intolerant. They promote their view without attacking another view.
 gottalight

Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 8
Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/9/2008 10:20:20 PM
The sign was "exclusivity" and antagonistic. A nativity scene is neither, in my opinion.

A Christmas tree and Santa Clause are great pagan symbols for Atheists.

It sounds like the person who wrote the sign was a Ho, Ho, Ho.
Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/9/2008 10:49:25 PM
Perhaps the Christians and Atheists could get together and instead of presenting antagonistically competing signs, incorporate both worldviews on a single sign. This would make vandal damage less likely. The dominant Christian message might convey some standard Mary, Manger and Myrrh malarkey whilst the Atheist qualification could appear in a discrete bordered panel at the base of the main message and read something like,

PHILOSOPHICAL WARNING: THE EXISTENCE OF GOD CAN BE NEITHER PROVED OR DISPROVED.

This seems like a good solution to me; a bit like the Govt. health warnings that appear on cigarette packs. Maybe this would satisfy the aspirations of both parties?..
 chelloveck

Joined: 6/2/2007
Msg: 10
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Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/9/2008 10:56:22 PM
It's the silly season. That theists and atheists alike are doing and saying silly things is hardly surprising. I say a pox on both their houses....and a liberal doling out of lumps of coal to both sides.
 gottalight

Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 11
Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/9/2008 10:59:34 PM
^^

I am a Theist, but I respect the sentiment of both of the posts above.

Kudos for your understanding of the paradox.
 CharlesEdm

Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 12
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Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/11/2008 2:28:28 AM
Then if it was taken down, there's something wrong going on.


Isn't it wrong anyway? The point of freedom of speech isn't to protect popular statements.


I don't think freedom of expression supersedes the right to public peace.


Wait a minute, you really think christians are so sensitive in their beliefs that other people should have their rights infringed?
 gottalight

Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 13
Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/11/2008 8:12:49 AM
charlesdm,

I don't know if you are asking questions to get a point across, or because you don't get the point.

It is funny that the Supreme Court said that you can "TAKE DOWN" something as precious as the US Flag and burn it within your rights to freedom of expression. It seems that everyone involved was using the same rights.
 romanticoptimist

Joined: 10/1/2007
Msg: 14
Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/11/2008 11:00:58 AM
The burning of a US flag is protected as an act of protest (expression) specifically because it's a US flag and ONLY when it's done as an act of protest because the flag is a symbol and it's the symbol that the burners are protesting/attacking. Burn down a building housing a US flag and it's arson. Steal a box of US flags and it's theft - even if you burn them. Wrap a person in a US flag and set them on fire and it's assault to murder.The US Supreme Court ruled specifically on this expression of protest. Taking down or putting up anything has nothing to do with the ruling.

The illegal and non-sanctioned (as as yet unproven as an act perpetrated by anyone 'religious') removal of the sign was not a specific incursion on anyone's right to free speech or expression*. It was an act of vandalism or theft. Until the person or persons responsible are caught and they say why they did it, nobody has any idea why they did what they did. At this point, with all the evidence available, it's as likely that the placers of the sign removed it to create a media event to promote it and play the victim (something the spokesman seems quite expert at), or a random act of (drunken) vandalism.

*Iit might have been if a government body ordered its removal or forbade its presentation or forbade it but allowed another POV. Freedom of Speech is not Freedom from Views I disagree With, "Freedom Form Another POV", "Freedom From Hearing/Seeing Stuff I Don't Want To".
 Feral

Joined: 4/10/2005
Msg: 15
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Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/11/2008 12:50:06 PM

I don't think freedom of expression supersedes the right to public peace.
Whereas I disagree. If a statement --any statement-- can be taken as "inflamatory" or "confrontational", if any particular viewpoint is in dispute, then one could argue that publicly proclaiming such a position threatens the right to public peace, since it could lead to disagreement and escalating tension. I agree that there's a difference between the classic shouting of "fire" in a crowded movie theatre and audibly discussing alternate philosophical views at an open-air cafe, but who's responsible when someone (for example) more and more loudly proclaims a blatantly offensive message, pushing and pushing until someone else smacks them?
No, I'll maintain the right of Satanists to put up mocking crucifixion scenes next to Nativities, although I'll recognise the tastelessness of it all.
If a sign advertising a new chicken sandwich was up somewhere, I doubt people would prefer if signs saying ...
'Support the systematic breeding and slaughtering of innocent life, simply to appease your tastebuds!'
... were allowed to be put up next to it.
And I'd support (hell, maybe even assist in financing) a sign like this, as well.
As for venues, disruptive or not, the public arena is just as viable a scene for the contrast of ideas as anywhere else. It's one of the reasons, I believe, that the western world has progressed so far.

Msg: 6
I don't quite agree. While there are aggressive missionary stances, and religious symbolism is culturally pervasive, we retain a powerful freedom to exercise our own thoughts and opinions, to disagree with the ubiquitous message. Fortunately, we also have the right --and yes, it is a right-- to voice dissenting messages, as well. Hence, the freedom of speech issue at hand, yes?
With that in mind, from Msg: 7:
I agree that what is missing here is tolerance.
I also agree with this, but the situation is a touch more convoluted, at least in mine understanding, than the simplistic interpretation we all seem to be deriving, of "they did it first".
The presentation of the sign was deliberately insulting, inflammatory, and an exclusive truth claim
True, it's an excessive truth claim, but the message itself stands alone. The placement near a Nativity might occasion the assumption of insult or inflamation, but to me, that's in the interpretation. As for whether the statement would be allowable on this forum, it's a moot point. Definitive statement of exclusive truth of a religious viewpoint is likewise disallowed here.
True, removal of the sign was both wrong and not necessarily ascribable to any particular group, however,
A Nativity scene does not say, "we are all going to hell if we don't bow down to Jesus" as Barker claims.
This, being explicitly true, does not deny the inherent and implicit message of the Nativity, that Christ was born specifically to die for humanity and to subsequently rule over it. One would be a fool to actively despise a swastika, but taking umbrage to and opposing what they interpret it to symbolise does make a certain form of sense, yes?
As for who shouts "hell" the loudest, let's just say we've had different experiences and call it cool.

It's immaterial to the matter whether the Winter Solstice has been celebrated before Christianity or not.
I agree, and I also question the evident propriety of reverence toward the Winter solstice on the part of atheists. Seems irrelevant to the point, in my opinion. But, that is the point, isn't it? The sign in question can be taken as confrontational, and to some it was. However, I see it more as a contrasting point. While we are inundated (even in the messages of those who insist they're standing up for their rights by pressuring politicians) with the argument that the pivotal concept to the holiday season is one specific figure in and of a specific religious tradition --"reason for the season", "keep Christ in Christmas", "'they' (whoever 'they' are) are trying to take Christmas away/take religion (specifically ours) out of the public view or cultural tradition/etc."-- in a society based in large part on the concept of opposing viewpoints available for comparison and discussion, the right exists and, in my mind, is paramount that we have the opportunity to publicly dissent and portray a conflicting message.
I'd also add that, while Mr. Barker's subsequent remarks to the media, while truly self-serving, intolerant, and emotionally irrational, are also irrelevant to the initial posting of the sign. One is perfectly within his/her rights to interpret the plaque with whatever intent, but that interpretation is itself a result of one's own prejudices regarding the contrast provided.

I think the American Humanist Association's bus ad ("Why believe in a God? Just be good for goodness sake.") is a good example of getting an alternate message across without being confrontational and intolerant. They promote their view without attacking another view.
I also preferred the bus line ads, but, while I feel that the removed sign was "confrontational" only in its placement (albeit also inadvisedly definitive in its exclusivity of truth claim), one might be prudent to consider the similarities in the responses to both.

A Christmas tree and Santa Clause are great pagan symbols for Atheists.
Why an atheist would gravitate toward Pagan symbols (in lieu of any other religious ones) is beyond me. Please explain?

PHILOSOPHICAL WARNING: THE EXISTENCE OF GOD CAN BE NEITHER PROVED OR DISPROVED.
A "Philosopher General's" warning? Amusing, to be sure.

....and a liberal doling out of lumps of coal to both sides.
"Amen". . . as it were.

It is funny that the Supreme Court said that you can "TAKE DOWN" something as precious as the US Flag and burn it within your rights to freedom of expression. It seems that everyone involved was using the same rights.
IF it's your own flag. Seems to me, the issues aren't quite as similar as that.

So much for specifics. I do have a more general/generalised impression arising from mine observation of the initial issue and discussion of it. The apparent tendency to ascribe any given intent simply irks me.
Erecting a Nativity can be interpreted as a show of religious feeling or a statement of superiority. Likewise, the original sign in question could be taken as an alternative statement of belief or a direct challenge and opposition to the previously placed display. In any case, the issue to me is simple. Both have the right to make their messages available to the public, and infringing on that right, for whatever reason (or whatever ascribed reason) is improper. Agreed?
 gottalight

Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 16
Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/11/2008 1:04:23 PM
Both have the right to make their messages available to the public, and infringing on that right, for whatever reason (or whatever ascribed reason) is improper.


I emphatically agree. That is why placing the sign directly next to the Nativity is such an affront. They don't have to make their expression directly next to someone elses. What they do could be compared to me covering their sign everytime I see it. I wouldn't have to steal it.
 romanticoptimist

Joined: 10/1/2007
Msg: 17
Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/11/2008 1:43:41 PM

I said: A Nativity scene does not say, "we are all going to hell if we don't bow down to Jesus" as Barker claims.
feral said: This, being explicitly true, does not deny the inherent and implicit message of the Nativity
The only "inherent and implicit message of the Nativity" is the birth of Jesus. the most religious sentiment I can think of is, "Behold, a child is born to us. He shall be called 'Imanuel, God is with us"'. There is no "hell" in the Nativity scene. There is no "hell" in the Nativity message. It is created by those who want it to be there IMHO. Why? Based on experience, because they so want to be offended and so want to place that word "hell" in the mouths of Christians - or in the placement of an image of a Nativity scene. If it's worth anything, out of curiosity I did a casual run through messages posted in this forum for the word "hell" as far back as I could. Almost every single time the word was used it was by an non-Christian expressing that Christians say it "all the time". It seems to me that it expresses an ingrained prejudice rather than a truth.

Re the swastika, I disagree that the Nativity scene and the swastika are comparative in regard to the point you're trying to make.
 gottalight

Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 18
Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/11/2008 3:57:23 PM
Dittos RomanticOptimist.

I rescind my earlier statement about their action being equivalent to covering their sign. The equivalent would be covering their sign with a sign that says "Athiests go to hell with Adolph Hitler"
 Feral

Joined: 4/10/2005
Msg: 19
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Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/11/2008 5:55:12 PM


Both have the right to make their messages available to the public, and infringing on that right, for whatever reason (or whatever ascribed reason) is improper.
I emphatically agree. That is why placing the sign directly next to the Nativity is such an affront. They don't have to make their expression directly next to someone elses. What they do could be compared to me covering their sign everytime I see it. I wouldn't have to steal it.
I must simply be confused as to the point being made here, but as I read it, the same logic could be applied to the first dissenting opinion on any one of these forum threads as "covering up" the original post, effectively causing that voice to cease to be available. Again, I'm sure I'm not following, so please explain how a contrary statement, by its proximity to an earlier display, negates the free speech exercised in making that display.

The only "inherent and implicit message of the Nativity" is the birth of Jesus.
Indeed. Factor in the culturally relevant knowledge of the identity of Jesus (i.e., Saviour, Son of God, God made flesh, etc.), and again, it's the "inherent and implicit" message of the Nativity that the King of Kings is born on Earth (of a virgin, with a specific destiny, etc.).
Arguably, a completely culturally ignorant few can glance at a manger scene and see a very pretty but otherwise confusing image. But, that's not our focus, is it? Nor, is it that some folks extrapolate further to include the "fire and brimstone/sinners beware" message as a direct result of the imagery. I agree that it's foolish to extend it to such an extreme, but I feel it reasonable to acknowledge at least the baseline religious meaning of the display, don't you?
That's about as far afield as I'm interested in going, honestly. The question of one (possibly arbitrary) group or another posting a given word more than others is irrelevant to both the thread and (as I tried to convey earlier) the difference between folks' individual experiences.

Once again, I have no issues with folks getting their respective messages out there. It's all the same to me, what with I agree with neither side. And, as is apparently evidenced in our own discussion of the topic, it would seem that the real issues underlying the situation appear to be the projected intentions of each other's disagreed-with rivals, as well as a fundamental difficulty in getting across their messages in the first place.
 gottalight

Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 20
Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/11/2008 6:10:26 PM

Again, I'm sure I'm not following, so please explain how a contrary statement, by its proximity to an earlier display, negates the free speech exercised in making that display.


Sure, I will tell you that as soon as you tell me how covering the sign and writing over it that "Athiests go to hell with Adoplh Hitler" would negate the sign and violates the right to have expressed the sentiment in the sign.
 scorpiomover

Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 21
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Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/11/2008 9:21:02 PM
RE msg 1 by the OP:

This is what it says on their site:
The history of Western civilization shows us that most social and moral progress has been brought about by persons free from religion.
http://www.ffrf.org/purposes/

I think that statements like this, from the Purposes of the FFRF, clearly show they think that religion is an impediment to social and moral progress, and is close to saying that "religion is the greatest evil in the world", which has been said by many, and there was even a thread started on this site by people of this view. Clearly, it is inflammatory, and can only have the purpose to insult and denigrate the characters of religious persons.

"Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds," the sign from the Freedom From Religion Foundation says in part.
How is this not denigrating those who are religious?
"Most people think December is for Christians and view our signs as an intrusion, when actually it's the other way around," he said.
Xmas is considered by many people, especially in the UK, as just a secular holiday, that some Christians also celebrate in a religious way. It's no different than New Years, which was a Roman Holiday, and yet many people who are either non-religious, or belong to a religion other than the Roman religion, celebrate it anyway.

RE msg 3 by andyaa:
I think the word we are missing here is tolerance.
I agree as well. But in a post-9/11 society, when we are in a War on Terror, religion has come to be associated with extremism that must be warred against. So it seems to me that our respective governments are actually inciting intolerance on religious issues.
Maybe science should hold its own creation scene, have a day in the year where they celebrate the Big Bang, today 13.7 billion years ago the universe was created.
What day, though? Jan 1st, or May 5th? We don't know what day the Big Bang happened. Also, I doubt that most atheists would approve of any day celebrating the Creation of the Universe, as that sounds too much like Creationism to them. You could have an Evolution Day. But as evolution took hundreds of millions of years, it would not be sending the right message to hold a specific day.

I'd be in favour of it. I just doubt that atheists would.

RE msg 7 by romanticoptimist:
1) The presentation of the sign was deliberately insulting, inflammatory, and an exclusive truth claim (as an aside, the exact same wording would be forbidden on this forum)

2) The removal of the sign was wrong.

3) There is NO evidence presented by anyone that the removal of the sign was done by any religious person or persons. That is a conclusion drawn without a shred of evidence to support it.

4) A Nativity scene does not say, "we are all going to hell if we don't bow down to Jesus" as Barker claims. As I've said before, based on my personal experience, the most vocal in proclaiming "hell" are not Christians but some Atheists who seem to need to place those words in Christian mouths in order to justify their own intolerance.
I'd agree with all this 100%.
I think the American Humanist Association's bus ad ("Why believe in a God? Just be good for goodness sake.") is a good example of getting an alternate message across without being confrontational and intolerant. They promote their view without attacking another view.
I think that is a negative question about G-d, followed by a positive message. If the bus had read "Why not just be good for goodness sake?" I would have commended it as entirely positive. But this just sends mixed messages. After all, if you are going to be good, then why not be good to G-d too? Why be nice to everyone but G-d?

Summary:
I think, all in all, if these people really believe in being good, and honest, and nice to people, they can all go and help out in a soup kitchen, or gather extra clothing for the homeless, over the Xmas holidays. After all, the homeless and the starving can do with some help in this Credit Crunch.
 The Artful Codger

Joined: 2/29/2008
Msg: 22
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Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/12/2008 10:08:33 PM

I think the word we are missing here is tolerance.
I don't like the word tolerance. To my mind, tolerance falls short. It is fettered with judgement, reeks of an assumed and implied sense of superiority and suggests the cavalier dismissal of those who may have other customs, speak a different language or hold on to ideas which do not mirror our own. Tolerance suggests (to me) the granting of permission, and in my world people don't need my permission to be different from or to disagree with me.

I think acceptance should be the goal. Acceptance that others have experiences and follow paths equally as valid as, but different from my own; acceptance that another's spiritual truths are as real to them as mine are to me; acceptance of the fact that despite a tendency to assume otherwise - the universe does not revolve around me.

Without acceptance, in my view, the claim of tolerance is empty and disingenuous.

That said...I agree with this:

"The thing is, to reach a minority group, in order to be heard, everyone in the room has to hear you, even when they don't want to."
Sometimes a minority voice must be loudly and publicly intolerant of an unacceptable status quo in order to bring wider attention to and force a conversation about a perceived inequity or an injustice imposed upon them by the majority. Sometimes the refusal to move quietly and obediently to the back of the bus is required to force a conversation some people would rather not have.

In this instance, it would appear the conversation being forced is about the perception many people have that the government favours some of its citizens over others - and if one holds the words "that all men are created equal" to be self evident, and the idea worthy, then to permit even the appearance of such favouritism to go unchallenged would seem to me to be unacceptable.
 romanticoptimist

Joined: 10/1/2007
Msg: 23
Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/12/2008 10:30:09 PM
In response to Barker claiming a Nativity scene says, "we are all going to hell if we don't bow down to Jesus", I said: The only "inherent and implicit message of the Nativity" is the birth of Jesus.
Feral said: Indeed. Factor in the culturally relevant knowledge of the identity of Jesus (i.e., Saviour, Son of God, God made flesh, etc.), and again, it's the "inherent and implicit" message of the Nativity that the King of Kings is born on Earth (of a virgin, with a specific destiny, etc.).
Arguably, a completely culturally ignorant few can glance at a manger scene and see a very pretty but otherwise confusing image. But, that's not our focus, is it?
You'll have to speak for yourself on that one. As for me (and mine, and all I know) all "we" see is a representation of the birth of Jesus Christ. "Hell" doesn't enter into it.
 _Maloy_

Joined: 9/3/2008
Msg: 24
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Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/13/2008 5:48:44 AM
As far as I can tell, everyone has the right to say what is on their minds. There is no reason a sign should be vandalized for having a message on it that isn't spreading hate.

However, if they didn't want to antagonize the religious, why put it next to a nativity scene? I'm sure there are many other places the public would be able to see it.

I am for the Winter Solstice before I am for Christmas but even I can see it was placed in poor taste.


I think the American Humanist Association's bus ad ("Why believe in a God? Just be good for goodness sake.") is a good example of getting an alternate message across without being confrontational and intolerant. They promote their view without attacking another view.


Oddly enough, I'm with Rom Opt on this one.
 pappy009

Joined: 2/3/2008
Msg: 25
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Missing atheist sign found in Washington state. . .
Posted: 12/13/2008 11:15:15 AM
---"we are all going to hell if we don't bow down to Jesus",----

What makes you think that your not already in "A" hell. Ever consider Hell as Ignorance instead. The world is a beautiful place, lets be friends, theres enough hell already. You got to be Ignornant to put a sign up beside a nativity scence debasing someone elses concepts...its not different than the Nazis painting slogans on Jewish graves.
Whos right and whose wrong is of no concern if it doesn't involve you!
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