| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/24/2009 5:05:07 PM | In the news here today:
A Toronto judge has stripped a mother of custody of her three children after the woman spent more than a decade trying to alienate them from their father.
The mother's "consistent and overwhelming" campaign to brainwash the children into thinking their father was a bad person was nothing short of emotional abuse, the judge wrote in her decision.
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I understand having bad feelings about your ex. I understand (under some circumstances) saying bad things about your ex to your friends, or adult family members. I don't understand how anyone could think it was a good idea to tell their own kids that their other parent is a creep.
Discussing my own case with a friend, I wondered aloud how I would ever tell my kids that their dad had abused me (and one of them). His answer: "Don't tell them. They'll hate whoever they hear that from."
I don't know if I'll be able to stick to that, since my kids' dad has a pretty consistent campaign of telling them how mean and awful mommy was to leave daddy. I'm often tempted to tell them that it took both of us for the relationship to end, but I worry that even saying that will be opening the door for more questions than I can constructively answer.
What are your strategies for talking about your breakup with your kids, or talking about their other parent? Can you avoid getting into the nitty gritty? | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/24/2009 5:37:38 PM | You can avoid getting into details by telling the kids you did what was best for both them and you. Part of it is asking your kids questions such as do you think that maybe there is more to this story than what your Dad told you? Or just say things happened and there are issues that should only be between the Parents.
As far as the Judge is concerned, I think that her decision was right on the money. Kids have no chance to be impartial and what the Mother did was abusive. I also feel that Judges need to treat both parents as equals until one Parent does something to show that they are not equal. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/24/2009 5:41:39 PM | Those are really good suggestions; honestly I freeze up every time the kids ask me (and they ask about once a month or so).
I think the judge was right too: I don't care which parent is doing the brainwashing; that parent needs to have his or her rights restricted. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/24/2009 5:52:46 PM | I was a kid in that situation.
At about age 14 i was went to go live with my grandparents because i couldnt stand either of their petty yammering, and threatened to stab the next one who said just one word, just ONE more word, regardless of who was wrong or right. It made my sisters and i miserable mentally. I cried a lot and then finally got angry.
I was the first one to snap hence why i was "sent off" to grandma and grandpa's. And i was actually a lot happier there.
My older sister and i were discussing it just the other day, how she couldnt believe what i said to them and how she was envious that she hadnt said it first so she could go live with our grandparents also.
I didnt care who did what to who, just wanted them both to STFU and get over it.
I would hope people being negative towards an ex is an exception, not the rule, sadly doesnt seem to be that way. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/24/2009 6:05:25 PM | I agree with the judge's statement. Not sure how I feel about his ruling.
NO one has a right to badmouth a parent to a child. No matter what, that is still their parent. Children are the product of both parents .. so indirectly the criticism is directed at them.
OP .. If you aren't concerned for the safety of your children while they're with their father I'd leave it alone. If they question you about your relationship with him, I'd say that it's in the past, it's between the two of you, it's private and will remain so.
There's not much you can do about your ex's remarks. It's a very childish and vindictive way to try to 'get even'. He's hurting himself 'cause it will backfire in the end.
The children will realize as they mature which parent is the petty one. They aren't stupid and will respect you all the more for not involving them in your discord.
You need to leave the past where it belongs .. behind you. Look at it as a lesson learned and carry that forward. You wouldn't have your children if it wasn't for your relationship with him. Always look for the positive. It's there .. sometimes you've got to look hard to find it.
In the meantime, learn to smile and grit those teeth honey. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/24/2009 6:17:55 PM | | In the Toronto case, there must have been sufficient evidence proving that the mother was nothing more than a bitter and selfish woman - to say the least...It sickens me when so called parents use their innocent children as pawns and/or weapons to get back at their exes - it happens more often than not and it is the CHILDREN that suffer most...Kudos to this judge - hopefully, more will follow suit... | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/24/2009 6:40:20 PM | faith,hope,love - just because one person sinks to a certain level, you do not have to do it.
Your friend's advice was very sound. It is better to tell your children that you had your own personal reasons for making the choice you made, that are none of their business because your reasons have nothing to do with their relationship with you or their relationship with their father.
Your children will judge you on how you love them....also by what you say to them about their father.
Your children will judge their father on how he loves them....also by what he says to them about their mother.
I have yet to hear of any child who appreciated their parent saying mean (even if what is said is truthful) things about their other parent. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/24/2009 6:50:28 PM | | I know it's hard, but children love both their parents and it's so wrong to try to paint your ex in a bad light. I've always told my boys a version of the truth, white washed of the bitterness, anger and broken dreams - "your dad and I married young, and instead of growing together we grew apart". Of course it was way more complicated than that, but really sharing all of that is not only not appropriate but could be harmful. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/24/2009 6:55:56 PM | Regardless of why parents split up, it only harms the child(ren) when one parent bashes the other. OP, as hard as it will be, if your kids are young, keep what is between you and your ex separate from them. When they are older and if they want to know or ask, tell them the truth but do not add any embellishments. Most likely, they will not ask specific questions because kids want to love both their parents and don't want to feel like they have to choose between them.
For the people who hate their exes and use their kid(s) as a tool between them, you are the idiots. I've seen where a parent will call the police if their ex is 5 minutes late dropping off from a visit. This is totally ridiculous!  All it does is put your kid in the middle of a battle. Parents need to act like adults and put their kid's needs first, regardless of how they feel. When the kids get older, they will see for themselves how their parents really are and they will remember the petty things. Kids are not dumb. They see, they hear. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/24/2009 7:22:00 PM | Let me make totally clear: I do not bash my ex to my kids, or even go into detail about why we split.
I know that he has his own agenda and I can't stop him from saying what he says. I was, however, looking for a way to say something to the kids when they ask me about the split, without being deceitful or turning into a brick wall.
Some of you have given me valuable suggestions, and I'll be using them. Thanks. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/24/2009 7:41:19 PM | I don't bash my X but he has done many, many things in front of my kids. When that happens, you cannot avoid talking about things because you run the risk of the kids internalizing, etc. The best I can do in that type of situation is to avoid making judgment. Your dad should have handled it better. We can hope he does next time, or whatever.
Kids aren't stupid and how you respond to them depends on how much they know. One of the things you can tell them is that they shouldn't worry about it, the break-up had nothing to do with them. It doesn't really matter why the marriage ended, it did, and we go from here.
If your X cheated on you or was abusive or whatever, find a way to try to teach your child to avoid this type of person without actually telling him/her about their dad. If your kids ask you questions about what you did, it is a judgment call if you can talk about yourself without casting aspersions on your partner, I am a big believer in honesty with your kids.
My kids know that I tried really hard to make a bad marriage work for 14 years, but they were privvy to it. Would they know as much as they do if their dad actually employed any filters? Probably not but it is still possible to refrain from telling your kid that their other parent is a turd. They figure these things out on their own and you make the child feel badly about himself if you tell him that half of who he is is a bad person. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/24/2009 7:52:50 PM | Not knowing your children's age is a problem. At different ages they understand different things. A teenage child wants to know the full truth. A preteen child can only handle so much. A toddler, gosh watch out to make sure the child isn't abused.
I don't want to say I had it easy with my kids, but truth is, it is because of them the ex didn't come back in the house. They were verbally abused as much as I was and had to go to counseling to deal with him at all. I don't wish that situation on anyone.
Just don't lie to your kids so that they come back later and get mad that you didn't tell them the truth. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/24/2009 8:21:53 PM |
What are your strategies for talking about your breakup with your kids, or talking about their other parent? Can you avoid getting into the nitty gritty?
Mom and Dad may have fallen out of love with each other, but we both love you dearly and that will never change....or words to that effect.
When he bad mouthed me to them, I told them he was still hurting and that was why he was saying those things.
Now that they've grown up, they ask how did I stay with him as long as I did.
Brandie | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/24/2009 8:35:38 PM | [Let me make totally clear: I do not bash my ex to my kids, or even go into detail about why we split.]
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OP, from your original post, I didn't get the feeling you were bashing your ex at all! The fact that he does about you has got to be so hard to bite your tongue, but you ARE a better person for it. 
It will not be easy when/if your kids ask you why you are not married to their father. Depending on their age, the simpler the better. Wish you well!  | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/24/2009 9:14:37 PM | I'm glad that judge did what he did. It's stupid to talk bad about the other parent to begin with... but some parents just take it WAY too far to the point of emotional abuse!
I don't really have any advice... but I think what your friend told you sounds about right.
I still don't know how I'm going to talk to my son about his father. He's only one... so hopefully I have a little time to think about it. I even have a hard time telling or explaining it to other adults... I think I'm getting better every time, though. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/24/2009 9:19:41 PM | What are your strategies for talking about your breakup with your kids, or talking about their other parent? Can you avoid getting into the nitty gritty?
honestly, and not emotionally. no name calling, no blaming. somethings i have to tell them is not for them to know.
the most important thing i have had to tell them (make that show them) was that i was/will always be there for them. also remind them that there their mother was there for them also. sometimes it is hard not to encourage them when they trash your ex. ( honestly tell me it doesn't feel good).... but always remember, it is their parent... and they love their parents.
I'm often tempted to tell them that it took both of us for the relationship to end, but I worry that even saying that will be opening the door for more questions than I can constructively answer.
you are within your rights to tell your children this... after all you did not wake up one day and decide to end the marriage. there must of been many a heated argument that your children were witness to (even if you think they were sleeping, or somewhere out of ears range). there were months, if not years of tension that they have lived through.
you should not have a fear of answering their questions. there is a good chance they are not asking because they are afraid of hurting you more. do you think they don't hear you cry when you hide from them.
talk to then... let them feel like they are part of your healing.... it will also help them heal. but keep it at their level, with out trashing their dad..... they love both their parents. they hurt if someone talks bad about their parents....
Discussing my own case with a friend, I wondered aloud how I would ever tell my kids that their dad had abused me (and one of them). His answer: "Don't tell them. They'll hate whoever they hear that from."
i have to agree with your friend.... but i would say your children know. that is why i think you should be answering questions that your children may ask.... it is on your shoulders to be your children s strength, security, comfort....
.... a night of pleasure.... i lifetime of responsibility
i would not trade it for anything... | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/24/2009 11:00:57 PM | My son is 7 and I answer his questions in a tactful and age appropriate way. I try very hard not to slant it in any direction, and stick to the theme of how we tried to make it work, that we're better living apart, and that we both love him enormously.
That being said, we're getting to the hard part where his actions are not matching his words. He lives at a distance and has not called his son for two months at a time. As a matter of fact, we're at two months now. I offer to call his pappa, and my son rarely says yes these days.
I should mention that my son is developmentally delayed, but at this point is like a big five year old. Nonetheless, it feels so wrong that the burden of communication often falls on his shoulders, rather than his father's. The inconsistency, I think, does a lot more harm than good. Occasionally his father will visit and play father of the year. I fund two of those visits as part of the custody arrangement (don't ask...). And we go visit him 1-2 times a year. But lately, his father has become heavily into polyamory (serious relationship with more than one person at a time, with everyone aware of each other...) and is in relationship with 2-3 women at this point, and just doesn't have time for his son anymore. How the hell do you spin that positively?
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/24/2009 11:11:18 PM | | I wouldn't worry about omitting details. If you are answering their questions honestly and you know your kids best as too how much they can handle, you are doing your best. Eventually more will come out and they will have more understanding. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 1:46:12 AM | Kudos to that Judge
Casino Man it took more than ten years so it is not like the judge really did anything. No doubt the children were almost adults anyway making it a moot point for that case. However, it may set a precedent for future cases. | |
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tlm92
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Joined: 4/5/2008
Msg: 23 | |
| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 2:18:19 AM | | OP, my answer would be simply the TRUTH whenever the kids ask and only in increments of what they can handle for whatever age they are at the time they ask. Nothing more-----Nothing less-----Nothing else. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 7:53:16 AM |
The three girls, ages 9 to 14, were brought to a downtown courthouse last Friday and turned over to their father, a vascular surgeon
McWatt heard testimony from Barbara Fidler, a Toronto mediator and clinical psychologist who predicted eight years ago the three girls were at risk of becoming alienated from their father.
The Office of the Children's Lawyer argued the family dynamics could not continue.
Fidler said research points to long-term damage in people alienated from a parent in childhood.
Children are more susceptible at about age 10 or 11, after their brains have developed to the point where they can hold positive and negative information about a parent.
If what one parent is saying about the other doesn't accord with their own perceptions, they can become confused.
In some cases, the only way out of the emotional conflict is to take one parent's side. The child can even begin inventing his or her own reasons for hating the other parent, the court was told
So I would imagine being a vascular surgeon he would have been finacially able to pay his required cs and still have money left over to provide a second home while his children were or were not able to visit and most importantly have the required funds to return to court to fight/argue for the best interest of the children. and for those who do not have the required $40,000 to $80,000 to stand up in court....well ????
After all judgements againts the mother were supposedly ingnored and the father was required to file and pay for others...to be ignored.
(i) Order of Justice Benotto dated March 13, 2000;
(ii) Order of Justice Horkins dated July 21, 2006;
(iii) Order of Justice Czutrin dated August 21, 2007;
(iv) Order of Justice Frank dated March 4, 2008;
(v) Order of Justice Czutrin dated June 25, 2008.
But why are there agencies and and support networks for trying to see child support issues are upheld yet a non custodial who simply wants their access upheld and not have the relationship harmed through a campaign of continued hostility is forced to spend thousands of dollars and years of effort.
Dr. Fidler concluded, in February of 2000, that
“The children are at significant risk for becoming aligned with their mother and in turn alienated from their father.
Conclusion
[152] It is remarkable that A. L. has not given-in to the Respondent’s persistence in keeping his children from him over the last fourteen years and simply gone on with his life without the children as, no doubt, many other parents in the same situation would have and, indeed, have done. It is now time for his and the children’s fates to be free from K. D’s control. She has shown that she cannot be entrusted with it.
http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2009/2009canlii943/2009canlii943.html
So I would challenge the "ladies" here who have made or written comments about men who walk away and perhaps they might realize why some have in fact made that choice when faced with the potential long and costly court battles they knew they could not wage.
I know personally 4 men who have had to make that choice, one his son after 9yrs moved out from his mothers home and now lives with his father, but doing so he lost his relationship with his mother, just part of the emotional abuse. The father is and was finacially unable to wage the legal battle to stand up for his rights. Especially as he still had to pay child support. LOL...since his son is in college he further has suggested the mother also does not pay cs but still expects it to be sent for their 2 daughters which is now only 1 I believe. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 8:04:09 AM |
Casino Man it took more than ten years so it is not like the judge really did anything. No doubt the children were almost adults anyway making it a moot point for that case. However, it may set a precedent for future cases.
Yeah, because at 9... you're almost an adult. | |
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