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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/9/2009 5:31:05 AM | What got us to the point of economic collapse? We really need to know if we are going to avoid repeating this in the future
I saw where one prominent politician’s wealth increased from 5.5 billion to over 22 billion while the country was sliding into this depression or recession, now this politician is calling for lay offs of police, fire fighters, sanitation workers, educators and health worker’s.
All of that money came from some where, where I wonder and how many other’s dramatically increased their fortunes while the rest of the country was sliding down the slide to recession or depression.
Years ago we had what they referred to as carpetbaggers have they returned?
We know that the money did not end up trickling down to the middle class so maybe it ended up lining the pockets of the wealthy?
I know money went to the oil companies and to the speculators who drove up the price of gas , I know that money went to the war in Iraq and Afghanistan
How did one person quadruple his wealth during this time period? What kind of taxes did he pay on the 17 billion he amassed in two years? | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/9/2009 5:54:43 AM | The Federal Reserve is a corrupt monopoly of bankers that is the source of all money.
Guaranteed to produce bankruptcies for the powerless and manipulate unemployment to prevent inflation. They play with interest rates appearing to help when times bad but knowing that there will never be a way for all the borrowers to pay them back.
Top that off with an emotion driven stock market where the wealthy can use fear to drive money to themselves and leave the little guys wondering why their savings in a 401K turns negative.
I think the only way to minimize the chances for this happening again is to eliminate the FED and have congress take charge of the money supply again instead of allowing some private bankers dictate our monies value. Maybe even create several competing supplies of money so we can choose the supplier with the best value. | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/9/2009 11:54:35 AM | Many things.
However a central cause is that of lack of personal responsibility when it comes to finances.
Example, buying a home that you can't actually afford, even though you could get a loan for it.
Example, misuse of personal credit (i.e. credit cards) and purchasing things when you don't actually have the necessary cash on hand. Misuse of said credit until debt outweighs actual personal worth.
The banks were one cause of credit misuse due to their extension of credit to those not actual capable of its safe use.
Also, the Clinton administration added to the housing problem with their plan of "Putting everyone in a home even if they don't have the money/credit to purchase one."
I could go on, but those seem to be the true core of the current economic crisis.
This is why all parties with problems, should file for bankruptcy and NOT be reward with a "bail-out". | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/9/2009 12:43:58 PM |
Example, buying a home that you can't actually afford, even though you could get a loan for it.
Example, misuse of personal credit (i.e. credit cards) and purchasing things when you don't actually have the necessary cash on hand. Misuse of said credit until debt outweighs actual personal worth.
The banks were one cause of credit misuse due to their extension of credit to those not actual capable of its safe use.
Also, the Clinton administration added to the housing problem with their plan of "Putting everyone in a home even if they don't have the money/credit to purchase one."
Right, blame poor people and those that try to help poor people. | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/9/2009 12:52:13 PM |
However a central cause is that of lack of personal responsibility when it comes to finances.
Example, buying a home that you can't actually afford, even though you could get a loan for it.
Example, misuse of personal credit (i.e. credit cards) and purchasing things when you don't actually have the necessary cash on hand. Misuse of said credit until debt outweighs actual personal worth.
This is why all parties with problems, should file for bankruptcy and NOT be reward with a "bail-out".
You've stated my personal belief well. We aren't all getting a bail out, so why are some? Why do some get a bail out and others don't? Unless everyone is going to get billions of dollars to bail them out of their personal "mistakes," then this is an extremely unfair matter that is taking place.
AIG gets a bail out. The Big Three get a bail out. Now certain Americans are going to get a bail out. How UNFAIR is this?
Extremely unfair, imo. It doesn't teach anyone responsibility. Why can't I get a bail out on my student loans? How am I supposed to pay them back in this job market? I want President Obama to send my personal bail out yesterday, dagnabit!!
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/9/2009 1:58:45 PM | Poor?
No, I won't get started with a sob story.
However, my parents were very careful about over-extending themselves.
We didn't have much, but what we did have was OURS!
They taught me how to take responsiblity for myself and my life. I then applied those ideas and ideals to my life as an adult.
I've worked hard and have achieved much. I did this by BEING RESPONSIBLE AND THRIFTY!.
Everything I have is mine. No debt. How? I did this by BEING RESPONSIBLE AND THRIFTY!
Don't buy things you can't afford and, especially, can live without. Use credit sparingly and only in AN EMERGENCY! Save money and be thrifty. Make use of our information technology and look for bargains in all aspects of life.
Find ways to make money or supplement your income.
Invest money in yourself. Get an education or technical training. Increase your earning capacity.
Then, after you've been responsible and SAVED MONEY, you can buy the occasional "splurge" item.
"Live with less and save more" is a motto that many Americans should live by........ | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/9/2009 4:29:14 PM |
Many things.
However a central cause is that of lack of personal responsibility when it comes to finances.
Your putting every one in the same pot, many people have lost there jobs and can not find new ones, why? Because North American Trade Agreement, favored nation status for China and other countries that utilize cheap labor
Bankers, real estate agents all share in the responsibility they all had a hand in it
How long could you last if you lost your job and could not find another?
Clinton was in office 8 years ago, Bush just left office do you really believe that Bush did not know what was happening to our economy?
At least you take responsibility or seem to unlike Bush who had no idea that we were in financial trouble, in his last breathe he managed to direct 350 billion more to his banking buddies and now it seems that no one knows how that 350 was used | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/9/2009 4:50:12 PM | I could retire right now at 38. And I'm self-employed anyway, so "losing" my job is a moot point.
Why moot? Because I've been careful and planned ahead.
There's that personal responsibility thing again.
Yes, as to the parties involved I do speak in generalities because as hard as it sounds, we live in a world that contains over 6 billion people.
Yes, there will be "innocent" people hurt. Too bad. That's life. Either adapt, overcome, or die. It's hard, but in this wildly overpopulated world, people will need to "sink or swim".
Back to responsibility, in ALL areas of society and life (not just economic), people simply DO NOT want or want to take responsibility for their own lives or for what is happening around them. It's continually getting worse as new generations come along, since the previous generation is as lazy and irresponsible as any in the past or future.
Sad, but I'm wondering if America shouldn't just collapse. With the prevalence of a demand of entitlement, we don't seem to deserve to survive.
"Gimme, I demand and deserve this and that", "Pay for my illegitimate child that I can't afford and that I should have prevented with birth control since I couldn't afford it", "I bought a 6 bedroom home because I wanted to live large, gimme some money since I can't make those payments", "I'm maxed out on credit cards because I bought a big-screen TV and all sorts of other cool stuff, so gimme me money to make those payments"............................
Wow, aren't we swell as citizens. | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/10/2009 5:06:17 AM | At least you take responsibility or seem to unlike Bush who had no idea that we were in financial trouble, in his last breathe he managed to direct 350 billion more to his banking buddies and now it seems that no one knows how that 350 was used
my congressman gave some insight into the bush bank bailout. he was told that unless IMMEDIATE action was taken, consumers would go to their banks the next day and find that their credit cards and atm's would be no good. he said the president had no choice but to take immediate action to stave a collapse. and unlike the current stimulus package, we are already getting money back from the bank bailout. millions have already been paid back and billions are in the pike this month for repayment. it was a plan put together quickly, and though not perfect had better oversight than obama's stimulus plan. there is a bipartisan oversight committee on this. obama's oversight team are people on his payroll. how much oversight do you think they're going to provide?
bush did know that there were problems but remember, the democrats have controlled the house since '04. this is under his watch but it freddie mac, fannie mae and democrats legislating quotas for home loans that's ground zero in this whole mess. you should really get over this bush bashing obsession and start trying to get some facts. | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/10/2009 5:09:29 AM | Right, blame poor people and those that try to help poor people.
if you don't recognize the reason for a problem, how do you correct it? if liberal policies are the reason for this mess why is it not appropriate to say so?
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/10/2009 6:55:22 AM |
if you don't recognize the reason for a problem, how do you correct it? if liberal policies are the reason for this mess why is it not appropriate to say so?
Fortunately, we did recognize the problem and started replacing republicans and bushies with intelligent people.
it was a plan put together quickly, and though not perfect had better oversight than obama's stimulus plan.
You're joking right? Why did this oversight commette not stop the billions in bonuses to the guys that steered their companies to bankruptcies?
How will you judge the website in Obama's plan that will disclose his expenditures? | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/10/2009 8:16:33 AM |
my congressman gave some insight into the bush bank bailout. he was told that unless IMMEDIATE action was taken, consumers would go to their banks the next day and find that their credit cards and atm's would be no good. he said the president had no choice but to take immediate action to stave a collapse. and unlike the current stimulus package, we are already getting money back from the bank bailout. millions have already been paid back and billions are in the pike this month for repayment. it was a plan put together quickly, and though not perfect had better oversight than obama's stimulus plan. there is a bipartisan oversight committee on this. obama's oversight team are people on his payroll. how much oversight do you think they're going to provide?
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Whered-the-bailout-money-go-apf-13889514.html?ref=patrick.net
The Associated Press contacted 21 banks that received at least $1 billion in government money and asked four questions: How much has been spent? What was it spent on? How much is being held in savings, and what's the plan for the rest?
None of the banks provided specific answers.
"We're not providing dollar-in, dollar-out tracking," said Barry Koling, a spokesman for Atlanta, Ga.-based SunTrust Banks Inc., which got $3.5 billion in taxpayer dollars.
Some banks said they simply didn't know where the money was going.
"We manage our capital in its aggregate," said Regions Financial Corp. spokesman Tim Deighton, who said the Birmingham, Ala.-based company is not tracking how it is spending the $3.5 billion it received as part of the financial bailout.
The answers highlight the secrecy surrounding the Troubled Assets Relief Program, which earmarked $700 billion -- about the size of the Netherlands' economy -- to help rescue the financial industry. The Treasury Department has been using the money to buy stock in U.S. banks, hoping that the sudden inflow of cash will get banks to start lending money.
How do you know the first part of the bailout money did any thing when the banks can not or will not tell you what they used it for? They do know that 20 billion went to bonuses for CEO’s ,
bush did know that there were problems but remember, the democrats have controlled the house since '04. this is under his watch but it freddie mac, fannie mae and democrats legislating quotas for home loans that's ground zero in this whole mess. you should really get over this bush bashing obsession and start trying to get some facts
The democrats still do not have a filibuster proof congress and to my knowledge did not have a majority until 2006, but that aside Bush was proclaiming that the fundamentals of our economy were strong right up until he couldn’t lie about it any more. Bush was the president if he knew he had a responsibility to do some thing about it, if not he was incompetent to be our president.
President Obama does not roll over and play dead he goes out to the people, he gets on the TV, the PC and does what ever else has to be done to ensure action
Laying this solely on any party is wrong, every elected representative has a hand in this mess, bush dropped the ball but it appears that no one, not republicans, not independents, not democrats bothered to pick it up.
I am sorry I just have a hard time believing that we woke up one day and found the country was in an economic mess, no one saw it coming and if they did they didn’t do every thing they could to bring it to attention of the American people, one more time when the ball stops rolling the person in charge of this country is responsible.
President Obama has the ball now and he is off and running with it, | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/10/2009 2:30:20 PM | No.
Obama's plans won't help.
He's treating this economic time as if it's the 1930s again.
His policies would have worked during that depression, but NOT during this current time.
The problems of today stem from things like defaulted loans and bad credit debt NOT FROM the same things that caused the depression of the 1930s like an under-producing agricultural based economy and a surplus of un-purchased produced goods.
The "Crash of '29" really had less impact than most people think. The true fuel of the depression was weather, disease, and an over abundance of unsold inventory that was produced during the '20s.
America's "Industrial Revolution" was actually a mixed bag. It produced wonderful technologies and great products. However, its production pulled workers from the American Agricultural economy, thus causing things like food shortages. The cycle spun around and it turned out that the tremendous inventory put out by the now-Industrial workers simply wasn't selling as anticipated. So, those workers were laid-off and often never paid.
The cycle spins again and add in environmental impacts like the "dust bowl", which further led to a reduced food supply.
Today, the factors are different and the problems are coming from a different angle. We do have unemployment, but in the grand scheme of things it isn't a cause. It's an effect.
As an aside, if we were serious about putting our unemployed to work, we'd be diligent about eliminating the tremendous amount of illegal labor in this country. Then our unemployed could make use of those jobs, if they were physically able. Granted they may not like those jobs, but at least they would be gainfully employed.
Anyway, I won't belabor these points. Just keep in mind that Obama's policies simply won't work, because they're targeting variables that simply aren't in effect today.
Again, this is 2009 and not 1929. | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/10/2009 4:48:22 PM |
Today, the factors are different and the problems are coming from a different angle. We do have unemployment, but in the grand scheme of things it isn't a cause. It's an effect.
I think you are wrong, I believe the only thing that will stimulate our economy is the creation of jobs, I think the government getting involved and creating jobs in infrastructure is a good starting place.
As an aside, if we were serious about putting our unemployed to work, we'd be diligent about eliminating the tremendous amount of illegal labor in this country. Then our unemployed could make use of those jobs, if they were physically able. Granted they may not like those jobs, but at least they would be gainfully employed.
Again we not only have high unemployment but we have underemployment college graduates working for Wal Mart 7.50 per hour and no benefits, we need descent paying jobs, jobs with a future, jobs that yield some type of security for the worker
Our country is fueled on taxes, taxes that come from working Americans | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/10/2009 4:54:26 PM | | ^^^^^ Are not those government jobs going to require salaries paid strictly by tax money that isn't there due to lack of private sector jobs ? I just don't get how anyone can even consider that plan sitmulating anything except a bunch of state and city / county workers that (like alot of my friends) work about 10 minutes every hour because they can. And then laugh about it all the way to their two hour paid lunch break. | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/10/2009 5:10:03 PM |
Are not the those government jobs going to require salaries paid by tax money that isn't there due to lack of private sector jobs ? I just don't get how anyone can even consider that plan sitmulating anything except a bunch of state and city / county workers that (like alot of my friends) work about 10 minutes every hour because they can. And then laugh about it all the way to their two hour lunch break.
If your friends do not earn their pay checks then those who are in a position to over see them are not doing their jobs, I worked construction for years and then moved into a management position people do what is required of them, some actually do more but it is the responsibility of every manager/supervisor to make sure that those who work for him/ her do a good days work
I went back to working construction 8 years ago and can assure you that work is very competitive today and they "management" have no problem laying off non productive workers | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/11/2009 1:43:28 AM | Ok then you responded to my lame exageration to make a bad joke but didn't even touch the meat of the issue. Do I need to go back and re post it ?
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/11/2009 3:08:35 AM |
Ok then you responded to my lame exageration to make a bad joke but didn't even touch the meat of the issue. Do I need to go back and re post it ?
Yes | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/11/2009 11:39:28 AM | Thank you Earl.
Please explan it to me like I'm a 3 year old.
We all know we need something to stimulate the economy immediately.
All I hear is how they are going to create a whole slew of government jobs to build infrastructure and new science classes in public schools.
That's not creating any flow of money all that's doing is creating billions of dollars in salaries that need to be paid out of our pockets which are already running dry.
I didn't take Economics 101 and even I can see a dark future with this plan.
If there is a logical explanation why Obama gets a resounding standing ovation of applause when he proposes these things I would love to hear it because I'm obviously missing something. | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/11/2009 11:54:50 AM |
Example, buying a home that you can't actually afford, even though you could get a loan for it.
Example, misuse of personal credit (i.e. credit cards) and purchasing things when you don't actually have the necessary cash on hand. Misuse of said credit until debt outweighs actual personal worth.
The banks were one cause of credit misuse due to their extension of credit to those not actual capable of its safe use.
Also, the Clinton administration added to the housing problem with their plan of "Putting everyone in a home even if they don't have the money/credit to purchase one." Right, blame poor people and those that try to help poor people.
Okay, let's just put blinders on and forget the real causes of this mess. | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/11/2009 2:14:17 PM |
Thank you Earl.
Please explan it to me like I'm a 3 year old.
We all know we need something to stimulate the economy immediately.
All I hear is how they are going to create a whole slew of government jobs to build infrastructure and new science classes in public schools.
That's not creating any flow of money all that's doing is creating billions of dollars in salaries that need to be paid out of our pockets which are already running dry.
The jobs being created in infrastructure are band aids to keep our economy from totally going into the toilet, but unlike band aids the work being created has value, lets use New Orleans for example the levees there failed costing hundreds of millions of dollars in relief to be spent, had those levees been repaired or replaced they would have held or at least minimized the damage.
I don’t know the scope of every infrastructure project but we have plenty of opportunity to reduce the catastrophic effects of dam, bridge, levee failures, in many cases the money being allocated for some of these projects could be less then the federal disaster aid needed
Most of these jobs have some potential to save monies while providing employment at a time when we most need it
Technology I am just guessing but it looks like we may be lacking a little, new technology use to create jobs in America so maybe those science classes will produce a generation of students that can be competitive in the world market, presently we are ranked 15th in Reading Literacy,19th in Mathematical Literacy and 14th in Scientific Literacy is that good enough for us to be competitive in the world market?
I don’t know where every penny is being spent but it looks like there is some logic to the spending and that a lot of it has a potential return.
We have a population of 320 million people and out of that number 200 million work or would if we had job availability if 7.5% of them are unemployed that would be 15 million unemployed that are presently drawing unemployment benefits, add in the number that have run out of benefits and are now on welfare, food stamps and are collecting other benefits six years ago when I was laid off I drew 610 dollars a week unemployment but lets just use 300 a week for 15 million people that works out to $4,500,000,000.00 every week in unemployment compensation, if they can draw for 26 weeks that number becomes 117,000,000,000.00. may be it’s better to put people to work and have them paying taxes on their earned income, maybe they will put some of their checks back into the economy, job growth creates job growth, people out of work, have limited finances so they don’t spend
Longer term President Obamas goals are to create jobs that will increase the efficiency of our energy with new technology,
I don’t have all of the answers so I defer to the economists that make up his economic team they certainly have better credentials then I have, I think the president is on the right track and that the stimulus plan will succeed
What is your answer? | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/11/2009 2:33:08 PM |
What is your answer?
First stop telling Americans that with all his hard work and with all the experts that nothing good will happen for the next 5 years. (How convienient, he applies zero responsibility to himself until after after the 2012 election.)
And stop instilling fear and gloom by saying we may never ever recover (heard that one second hand and still searching for a cite).
That's not leadership. That's not presidential. That's not what he was elected to do, create a nation that is predominately reliant on it's government. | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/11/2009 2:44:24 PM | I think it's cheaper to put people to work ... pay them something and offer them medical benefits while we're at it ... than to pay them to stay at home with no benefits.
For example ... let's use the logic that we use with home health. It's cheaper to pay a nurse to go out twice a day and monitor / administer insulin doses as well as pay a home health aide to go out twice a day to get that person cleaned up, dressed and breakfast, then go back again and help them get dinner and get ready for bed ... than it is to keep them in a nursing home facility.
Here's another example ... it's cheaper to send white collar law breakers home with an electronic monitoring bracelet than to keep them in jail. At home they have to eat their own food, heat or cool their own living environment, do their own wash, use their own water and electricity. The price of buying electronic monitoring devices is far cheaper than keeping those guys in jail where they also have to furnish them with medical benefits as well. It's far cheaper to buy those devices than it is to hire deputies and build extra jail space.
I think it's better to create jobs and keep people working than to just force them to sit at home and go on Welfare. Even if those people have to negotiate a little with the bank to work on getting a reduced mortgage payment for a while, at least the people are working, and making payments (even if partial). They are probably paying into a group medical insurance and are then not a burden on the ER's, they might need a little help with food stamps, but that's far cheaper than putting them on Welfare. | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/11/2009 2:56:57 PM |
First stop telling Americans that with all his hard work and with all the experts that nothing good will happen for the next 5 years. (How convenient, he applies zero responsibility to himself until after after the 2012 election.)
That seems like an accurate take on situation. Nothing good will happen for next 5 years.
And stop instilling fear and gloom by saying we may never ever recover (heard that one second hand and still searching for a cite).
The quote you are looking for is ""if we don't act immediately, unemployment across the country will rise, and our nation will sink into a crisis that, at some point, we may be unable to reverse.'' Except for the "if we don't act immediately" part, that once again looks like what will happen.
That's not leadership. That's not presidential. That's not what he was elected to do, create a nation that is predominately reliant on it's government.
Not leadership and not presidential, sure. But, that IS what those who voted for him elected him to do. It was not exactly an open secret that Obama's election was all about a massive scale federal power grab. | |
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| Where Did it Go?
Posted: 2/11/2009 3:14:00 PM |
First stop telling Americans that with all his hard work and with all the experts that nothing good will happen for the next 5 years. (How convienient, he applies zero responsibility to himself until after after the 2012 election.)
And stop instilling fear and gloom by saying we may never ever recover (heard that one second hand and still searching for a cite).
That's not leadership. That's not presidential. That's not what he was elected to do, create a nation that is predominately reliant on it's government.
I think he is being as straight forward as he can be, he is not promising us a rose garden he knows their are rough days ahead, he also knows that he will not be re-elected if this plan does not work. As our first minority president he knows the world is watching. I would bet that he wants success more then any one who has ever sat in the oval office.
If we sit on our hands and wait this recession is going to gain steam there is nothing to stop it, jobs losses are continuing to increase, we need jobs, cutting the taxes of the wealthy has not produced those jobs, the windfall profits that the oil companies made have not produced jobs. Only the government can get the ball rolling again and bottom line WE are the GOVERMENT
We are lucky to have a President who has put a team together to address the issues facing us and who has the energy and intelligence to get the job done | |
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