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 Sherlock101
Joined: 1/4/2007
Msg: 1
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The Irish here seem to have many preconceived notions about their heritage and behaviors. Curious what they think about the American Indian and what would happen if the two were to mix? I’m mostly Cherokee, not quite full blooded but enough I cant grow a beard.
 Miss Grundy
Joined: 4/5/2008
Msg: 2
Irish mix
Posted: 2/13/2009 8:52:23 AM
I would love to learn more about Native Americans.

I'm a big fan of Chief Seattle's words and I keep meaning to read that Dee Brown book I've got on my bookshelf.

I lived on the west coast of Canada for almost a year and I loved the landscape there but also being introduced to the artwork of the Salish, and other tribes there plus their mythology. In fact I used to design knitwear inspired by their artwork which was quite successful.

Coincidently, I caught the tail end of an excerpt on Irish radio yesterday ...a woman was promoting a book she has written on the plight of the Native American in Canada - they were actually treated horrifically by the colonists there and as with the Aborigines in Australia many young children were taken from their families to be educated and trained with the promise they would be returned home...the children who did return back to their families were often alienated by their tribe but many more children never returned or were heard of again, it's suspected that the children often suffered terrible abuse at the hands of the people who they were placed in the care of and that many of them were actually killed.

During those children's years of 'naturalisation' (or whatever the word for it was) they were often sent out to work on neighbouring farms and treated like slave labour instead of getting the training or education which was promised.

I remember when I was in Vancouver visiting, that, the person who took me there spoke to me about the native people...I detested how he spoke so negatively about them, he said all they cared about was getting drunk, that the worst thing for the indigenous peoples of Canada was their introduction to alcohol because they hadn't 'evolved' to cope with it...and many became alcoholics after one drink. His attitude was that they were all wasters and dropouts and he warned me not to give them any money if I came across any begging on the streets.

But ...I had been to an amazing art centre somewhere along the coast...for the life of me I can't remember the name of it, but I was immediately impressed by the craftwork exhibited -

I'm interested in learning more about Inuits as well.

Are you going to fill us in about the Cherokee nation then ?
 Sherlock101
Joined: 1/4/2007
Msg: 3
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Posted: 2/13/2009 1:53:14 PM
I can start off by telling you to read the Trail of tears. You can probably read it online.

I didn't grow up on a reservation or anything like that. I don't know a lot about the Canadian Indians but I do know a few and know they weren't treated as badly as they were in the USA. I also know the Canadian government has been very generous with many of the tribes trying to make up for past travesties.

I traveled to many places in the world and was a bit shocked at first about what many people thought about the American Indian. They really love them and much is due to the fact that most cherish Earth as the mother.
 Miss Grundy
Joined: 4/5/2008
Msg: 4
Irish mix
Posted: 2/13/2009 6:04:29 PM
Here's a link to have a look at for those who aren't familiar with Chief Seattle

http://www.kyphilom.com/www/seattle.html

For me, without knowing a lot about the indigenous peoples of America, I get the impression they were a beautiful spiritual and dignified people who lived in harmony with Mother nature...and probably still are..oops.

I know that the during the famine years in Ireland Native Americans were very generous to the Irish people who lived here once they heard about how they were being starved.

Oh I just found this about the Choctaw people from here
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Choctaw-Indians#Irish_famine_aid

Irish famine aid

In 1847, midway through the Irish famine, a group of Choctaws collected $710 and sent it to help starving Irish men, women and children. "It had been just 16 years since the Choctaw people had experienced the Trail of Tears, and they had faced starvation . . . . It was an amazing gesture. By today's standards, it might be a million dollars." according to Judy Allen, editor of the Choctaw Nation's newspaper, Bishinik, based at the tribal headquarters in Durant, Okla. To mark the 150th anniversary, eight Irish people retraced the Trail of Tears .

Hmmm..I will make it my business to find out more about the Trail of Tears...and it looks as if the Irish and the Choctaws have a very close connection.
 SmilingSalmon
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 5
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Posted: 2/13/2009 6:42:09 PM
This is a thread I have to respond to, especially since I am Irish, Cherokee and Jewish.
It almost goes without saying that I am from three nations that know suffering and are deeply acquainted with abuse. Interestingly enough, I also feel that these three nations are much closer to God, spirit, nature and joy, than any others on earth. There is a knowledge, apparently earned by this suffering that doesn't seem to be present in others. Of course, this is only this one womans opinion, so please understand I am not trying to start any discussions or debates on that statement. I feel I know a lot about my heritage and I also feel I don't know nearly enough and want to know more.

Recently I have been thinking how can I get back in touch with my Cherokee heritage. I was deeply involved with a tribe when I was a child into my teens, in Dallas. After that I was more into my Irish heritage, then deeply into my Jewish heritage. Now it seems they all call to me at the same time. I feel them and think about them in a collective national sense, daily. I am not sure where it will all lead, but I write and draw, sometimes paint and often wonder if these talents will somehow be included in where this search will lead me.

I am interested in hearing more about the Cherokee Nation from your experience and point of view. Please feel free to email me here, Sherlock.

Miss Grundy, I was not aware of that story about the Cherokee sending money to the Irish. Thank you for posting that. You have wonderful information, I am learning. I too am a fan of Chief Seattle.
 Miss Grundy
Joined: 4/5/2008
Msg: 6
Irish mix
Posted: 2/13/2009 7:01:54 PM
Hey you...you mean the Choctaw people haha.

That is the good thing about the forums at times that you get to share info and be inspired. I am presently happily remembering my days of living in the Kootenay area of BC and other travels throughout Nth. America when I was there at that time..one of the most surprising things to happen to me over there is that I developed a real love for country music, I think you have to travel that vast land to really appreciate music like that....oh and to the OP me and my two sisters along with our parents, when we visited Florida, we travelled for miles from Coco beach to the Gulf of Mexico, just to say we'd been there, but I will never forget how peed off we were that all the radio stations just played country music constantly...it was less easy to appreciate the music travelling along an endless what seemed like concreteness..but I probably slept a lot at the time during the journey and missed out on the more worthy sights along the trip.

Later on, after having spent time there, I worked for an animation company in Dublin and came to know a number of very talented Canadian animators, one was a guy called Ken (I swear the memories are flooding back right now) but I used to tell him how much I loved the artwork of the Nth West Coast Salish and Kwakiutl (sp ?) peoples it was his ambition at that time to create an animated feature using their artwork and mythology as his base but he was trying to figure out how to incorparate their art into an animated medium...oh in this day in age he'd have no problem, probably, in translating their designs onto the screen with the use of computers and all the modern technology.

I am so definitely going to take down my books on Anthropology at home here during the weekend and other books I have and read them as a result of this thread.

In fact, one of the directing animators at the studio and his then girlfriend had actually studied animation in the art college of the town I lived in - by the time I lived there the college was defunct but there were lots of ex-art students still living in the area..there was a big hippy vibe about the place then.

Here's a link to the artwork of the people I speak of...I absolutely love it

http://www.coastalarts.net/site/painting/
 SmilingSalmon
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 7
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Posted: 2/13/2009 7:17:33 PM
Hey Grundy,

I just took a look at your website and it is amazing! I loved the art. It reminds me about the time I spent in Sante Fe, New Mexico in hte mountains. There is a gallery there with an American artist that does only native artwork. His paintings look very much like early Jewish depictions. I was immediately taken with it because of my heritage and collected a few pieces. This was right when his gallery first opened. He has gathered quite a lot of acclaim since then, and I am sure my pieces would be worth something. Alas, they were destroyed in a flood in California. I wish I had those particular pieces back.
 Miss Grundy
Joined: 4/5/2008
Msg: 8
Irish mix
Posted: 2/13/2009 7:38:31 PM
Oh dear...sorry to hear that...what a shame.

What is the artist's name...I'm interested now.

I do believe that all of us indigenous people have a lot in common, especially those of us who've been colonised, as you say regarding suffering from a dearth of happiness due to abuse by ignorant superioritists (I don't even know if that is a word..oh silly me the word is, must be 'supremicists ??)..I have to say though I don't enjoy how the Israeli's are treating the Palestinians..seems as if they've learnt nothing from their past and apparently the Irish immigrants in the Southern States of the U.S.A were the worst racists at the time....it turns out that the majority who landed in that area were Scots-Irish though...not that I like to differentiate normally but it's suiting me right now to do so.

I've taken down my enormous tome authored by Joseph Campbell called "The way of the animal powers" and I will indulge myself in it later ...Campbell is a great writer, I have another of his books here in the house that I need to fish out also.

I forgot I also have a book of photographs by Edward S. Curtis of native americans...I love that book too.
 SmilingSalmon
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 9
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Posted: 2/14/2009 12:21:55 AM
Oh, his name is Michael Atkinson. I went online to see if I could find a good website so you could see his paintings. Apparently his paintings are so well protected that you can hardly find a single one online. I found maybe 7 or 8 different pics of his paintings out of the 50 or so sites I looked at with his paintings. I guess that tells you he is marketable, alive and good! LOL

Well, I could not find my favorite and I cannot remember the name of it, but I did find 2 of the others I had, which are on auction. You will find them at the url below.
Pueblo Sentinel and Ancient Ways . Also Cliff People reminds me of the cliffs in the wadi where the dead sea scrolls were found and
Water Bearers is very nice, if you can find it online to look at. My favorite that I had and cannot remember the name of was Pueblo shepherds in the desert with sheep and staff, very moving. Michael Atkinsons Pueblo paintings always have distinct horizontal or vertical line, a lot of white space and muted color. Most of them depict shepherds in robes, with staff, resembling ancient Israel. He also does a lot of Victorian era homes in America. Until doing this search I did not realize he is from my home state, Texas. Lubbock, Texas specifically.

About 7 of his paintings are at this url.

earthimpressions.com/other_artists.htm

Here is a site with Water Bearers

http://dart.fine-art.com/aqd-asp-i_136456-buy-artlistinginfo.htm
 Miss Grundy
Joined: 4/5/2008
Msg: 10
Irish mix
Posted: 2/15/2009 3:47:02 PM
Oh I've had a look, thank you.

I like his style...When I paint or sketch I have a similar compunction not to complete the picture and leave out the unnecessary bits which are best left to the imagination...a friend of mine used to give out lots to me for that but the real reason for it was that I'd get so involved in concentrating on one particular aspect of a picture I would lose interest in painting in the rest - I'd probably be better off painting abstracts...

You'll have to check out Jack B. Yeats' work and tell me what you think of him..I particularly like the work done during his later years of typical Dublin scenes..

But back on topic...where is the OP gone to ?

I want to know all about Sweat lodges and if it's true that Native American children are named after the first two things their father sees when leaving the tent they were born in...I love all those names like "Rushing Water" "Flying Eagle" "White Feather" etc.
 Sherlock101
Joined: 1/4/2007
Msg: 11
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Posted: 2/16/2009 12:53:28 PM
OP still here, enjoying the interesting reading but still waiting for some opinions on the second question...
 SmilingSalmon
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 12
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Posted: 2/16/2009 2:07:42 PM
I don't see a second question. As far as the first, I personally would never know how to answer such a question, but I did tell you that that is exactly what happened in my family, both moms and dads. I had 1 great grandfather and 1 great great grandfather, both Irish straight from Ireland that married full blood Cherokee women. One of these couples never spoke the same language for the entire marriage. That particular great grandfather died in his late 40's and later his wife, my great grandmother, learned to speak English. She lived well into her nineties. Her husband, my great grandfather, did speak English, but mostly only Gaelic, especially at home.
 Sherlock101
Joined: 1/4/2007
Msg: 13
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Posted: 2/16/2009 3:50:14 PM
Smiling I think you already answered the second question just by being you and all seems good. I also think you have somewhat answered the second one to the best of your knowledge. Seems the Irish know a lot more about Canadian Indians than American...
I very much enjoyed all the responses from you and Grundy. Made me check some things out I would have never known about.
As for the lack of responses, I guess most Irish either don't know much about American Indians or don't care to, hence my first question.
 maleshot
Joined: 6/8/2006
Msg: 14
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Posted: 2/16/2009 5:31:09 PM
Quite one of the most interesting threads on here that I have seen.

I had a holiday in '94 that did the "Gold Rush" in reverse, so to speak from Anchorage upto Eagle and then across into the Yukon Territory dipping a toe into BC at Atlin and back again - was fascinated by the First Nation/Native American (so PC) art and artifacts on display in various museums and attractions, though imagine a lot of it was very "touristy" ! A few years later I did Route 66 with some friends and brought home a "fetish" of a small lizard - again not sure how genuine but a nice keepsake.

Thanks for the links Miss Grundy - way to go guys !
 Average White Male
Joined: 1/8/2009
Msg: 15
Irish mix
Posted: 2/17/2009 4:04:58 AM
[One of these couples never spoke the same language for the entire marriage. ]

That is amazing. Any plans for a book in the future?
 Gaelgoir
Joined: 12/30/2008
Msg: 16
Irish mix
Posted: 2/17/2009 6:36:30 AM
Hi there OP im only 24 but i have read many books on native american culture, language, opression, resistance and just your history, 500 nations is pretty impressive! im not sure if your interested in Leonard Peltier or his beliefs but im reading a book of his at the moment and i find it a great book! I plan on visiting wounded knee one day also, our history's are very similar i think that is what draws my interest so much.
 SmilingSalmon
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 17
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Posted: 2/17/2009 6:48:06 AM
To Msg 15
LOL no. I wouldn't know what to write about. One of my great grandmothers, who was born in 1873, didn't pass until I was 8 and I remember her (and later my grandmother spoke of it a lot) saying that in those days and before in America there were many couples that never spoke the same language. Many people traveled extensively, adventure types, while others never traveled more than 20 miles from where they were born. These people would meet, love at first sight (which was common back then) get married and be together until they died.

Maybe only 30% to 40% of women had any measure of choice in the matter back then, but even those who did still followed social convention and did as was expected or told by certain or all men. Often people forget that until 1940's and in some places 1950's the general population of women in America were only allowed to speak when men weren't around and in whispers behind closed doors with other women when men were in the house. A woman spoke with her husband only when spoken to if men were present and when they were in private, only as much as he was comfortable allowing her to. That relationship and amount of freedom of speech she had then totally varied from man to man. Some men had normal conversation and input from their wives in private, some still carried on the "speak when you are spoken to woman" relationship even in private, and there was everything else in-between.

The few women that had any freedom back then are the ones of legend...
Molly Brown (the unsinkable Molly Brown)
Calamity Jane (Martha Jane Canary)
Belle Star - this woman led a gang of outlaws and many of the free women were outlaws, cattle drivers, business owners usually by some form of actress or prostitute.
When I speak of free women, I do not mean they didn't have relationships with men. I am mean that they managed to have lives where they could choose what they said, what they did and how they did it and most importantly, not get themselves killed for doing it.

To this very day women struggle to have a voice. It may seem they have a very loud voice and they do, but it is so new to women that they are now battling themselves rather than men for that voice. Women of this generation often are too loud because they do not yet know how to handle the freedom, women have never had this freedom before. They are far too competitive with other women instead of just leading their own lives they must feel that there is only room for a small number of women to be totally free, so they battle what they perceive as the competition. They need to stop this. Women also shoot themselves into failure because they still do not believe they have real freedom and they do not know how to act in what they still perceive as a mans world.

One day, as a few generations of women are confident in knowing women are now free, these things will stop and life will be much better for men and women relationships in general. Men in this generation are also acting horribly because they do not know how to accept free women and end up either being whimps, hateful, abusers or just totally turned off. I am sure it will all settle down in a couple more generations and finally men and women can get on with a better and more normal existance.

This is my book.
 Sherlock101
Joined: 1/4/2007
Msg: 18
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Posted: 2/17/2009 9:50:53 PM
Gaelgoir good for you bud! It's a shame though, many Indians in the west part of America are still treated horribly. That’s where most of the poverty, alcoholics stories come from. In America we have to prove we are ¼ blood quantum to receive any kind of benefits. This is very hard to do as Indians were looked down upon for so many years and most tribe’s didn’t keep your usual birth records.
 Prettypicky I
Joined: 7/14/2008
Msg: 19
Irish mix
Posted: 2/18/2009 11:12:11 AM
I am SOOO going to get whopped with rotten tomatoes a la foodies for this ( ):


The few women that had any freedom back then are the ones of legend...
Molly Brown (the unsinkable Molly Brown)
Calamity Jane (Martha Jane Canary)
Belle Star - this woman led a gang of outlaws and many of the free women were outlaws, cattle drivers, business owners usually by some form of actress or prostitute.
When I speak of free women, I do not mean they didn't have relationships with men. I am mean that they managed to have lives where they could choose what they said, what they did and how they did it and most importantly, not get themselves killed for doing it.

To this very day women struggle to have a voice. It may seem they have a very loud voice and they do, but it is so new to women that they are now battling themselves rather than men for that voice. Women of this generation often are too loud because they do not yet know how to handle the freedom, women have never had this freedom before. They are far too competitive with other women instead of just leading their own lives they must feel that there is only room for a small number of women to be totally free, so they battle what they perceive as the competition. They need to stop this. Women also shoot themselves into failure because they still do not believe they have real freedom and they do not know how to act in what they still perceive as a mans world.

One day, as a few generations of women are confident in knowing women are now free, these things will stop and life will be much better for men and women relationships in general. Men in this generation are also acting horribly because they do not know how to accept free women and end up either being whimps, hateful, abusers or just totally turned off. I am sure it will all settle down in a couple more generations and finally men and women can get on with a better and more normal existance.


The above is very eloquently stated.
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