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| | gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this? Page 1 of 10 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10) | a good 25 years ago, i went to marital counseling with my first ex husband. he was very brilliant and we were together day and night as we were in the same profession and owned a business together. slowly but surely, i was feeling like alice with the mad hatter. i'd say something, for example, about myself or my feelings and he'd twist it and twist it and suddenly i was a "terrible person". i'd give an example or try to explain my position, and wham! that too got added to my list.
the therapist, a male, confronted him and explained the concept of gaslighting. there was a movie that took place before electricity was available. this man was deliberately trying to make this woman think she was crazy. so, would have the lights fade out and then back again. she, in turn, would express dismay about the lighting and he would tell her she was imagining it. over time, someone else also saw the lights go out and sure enough, she was on target all the time.
has this happened to any one of you, where you are going along, thinking you have a great friend, someone you totally admire and trust, and then wham! they start gaslighting you?
i just did a google and apparently this concept has evolved since i first heard it, applying it to abuse and mostly as happening to women. i have a more general approach to this term, as originally explained to me. it basically is about denial and the need or some, often insecure themselves, to project all their fears and frustrations onto someone else, often someone who is close. it's all their fault, you own nothing about how you got to where you are. everything is someone else's fault. even if she or he didn't even know you at the time or wasn't present when it happened! still, as the recipient of all this, it's all your fault and slowly you are very deviously put down or made to feel like you are the one in denial!!!
only often this works on a certain type of person. often this person is deliberately chosen to "play with" like a cat with a mouse. i think, more often, it is also a way to push someone away. kind of like fear of success for the one who is doing the gaslighting and of course, the one who allows him or herself to be gaslighted, is often afraid of failure.
this is a dangerous and depleting game. assuming you are looking for a partner, it can be very depleting and is very devious. on the one hand, you want to be there for someone who may appear to be stressed. also, it comes as a shock when one minute s/he is on your side and then turns on you. then you start to apologize --until you finally realize you have done NOTHING wrong and the other person doesn't want to stop kicking until you are down.
for me, who hasn't experienced this for a very long time, it took a bit to gain back my senses. plus, the situation was very different, as were the details. it feels awful, because you feel like you lost the first person you met. only suddenly there is this "other" person. i remember the words of that therapist long ago, the person is one person and you can't rid yourselves of the half of one person. so, you have to let him or her go. it's very sad. it feels like someone has gone and died on you. one minute s/he is fully there for you and then "not". the first thing you do is ask, what have i done wrong?
fortunately for me, i have some very sensible male friends. for those who are going through something like this, get objective insight fast.
any body else ever experience this in your older years? i thought i was past all this sort of stuff. as another pof'er has wisely said to me, a few months ago, just in talking: we are the one common denominator in all of our relationships. well, glad i caught this one faster then i did when i was younger! still feel the pain of it. but, i will get over it and hopefully learn. what, i am not sure. but the lessons always come.
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 1:14:58 AM | Gaslight, ummm Ingrid Bergman and Charles Boyer...
It is called abuse, as far as I know and experienced... for 19 yrs, a hard one to get out of... I have learnt to distrust (now with reason) every men who has come into my life.
Most of them in this site the ones i have encountered LIE. twist turn and shout...
Good luck I have becomed a bad...unbeliever... | |
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 1:40:45 AM | | i have too many male friends or platonic "buddies" to give up on this. if this is abuse, it's subtle. i think a lot has to be focused on the receiver. why do we allow this and how long should it take anyone, male or female, to figure it all out? could we have known from the beginning? it's not an obvious thing, when it first starts rearing it's ugly head. yes, that was the movie, i was trying to remember the stars. it was quite a popular movie back then. i had always thought it was fiction. | |
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 1:44:51 AM | | I am not exactly sure what this is, but sounds like I experienced this from my ex wife. She was always very abusive verbally, always yelling and screaming about nothing. She was always trying to start arguments just to have an excuse to leave. Finally had enough of that and divorced her. Must be something to her being absive and out in left field since I ended up with custody of our son who was only 19 months old when divorce was final 12/2007. | |
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 3:49:21 AM | Yes, saw the movie many times, had this happen to me in the past because I used to be a nice person.
A b!tch could never be gaslighted, only a sweet, slightly co-dependent person...
Women have done it to men too- usually the one doing it has borderline personality disorder & they seek out someone they can manipulate, twist them into a pretzel mentally... | |
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 4:31:08 AM | This is one of the saddest stories I have read in a long time. I UNDERSTAND exactly what this means, and a person can get caught up in it, thinking something is wrong with them. These people are VERY SICK and need help, they have /had a bad life and want to destroy others around them, to watch and make them feel worthless. The reason being is they feel worthless and they want to pass this sickness to their loved ones, but these people do not know what love is, so they use abuse to replace love.
YOU MUST GET OUT OF A RELATIONSHIP like this, and save YOURSELF. It even happened to ONCE, but I caught on so fast, once someone said to me, you have dark under your eyes, and I am like, do I...when you have to question anything someone is PASSING ON TO YOU LIKE POISON know the difference and get out. I got it within a couple of weeks, and put a STOP TO IT.
There is a difference when you are together as a team, and your mate is giving you some suggestions to enhance ourselves better, and truly we respect that...but when you deal with this kind of person, you are caught in abuse, the difference is to know you are WORTH SO MUCH...
Pass this on to everyone you know.
I love my life...I love who I am as a person...
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 4:45:23 AM | I think this is a very common thing. People get defensive and try to put the blame back on the person to take the focus off of what they did wrong.
The last time this happened I was dating someone who for no reason jut ignored me for nearly a week. First off I felt foolish like I was talking to myself by sending him a text or im each day just being normal. Then I noticed he wasn't replying and I hadn't heard from him for days. So maybe the 6th day I email him asking him what was up.
He replies within a couple of hours sending me a lengthy scathing email saying his computer had crashed and so on and so on and then accused me of being needy. So on one hand he was telling me I was nuts for thinking he wanted to end the relationship and he turned around and listed reasons to break up. Just insane. He caught me so off guard that I was crying and upset and I wrote back apologizing to him.
Later on, I found out he lied about his computer crashing.
So it would have been one thing to just lie and make an excuse for not communicating with me but an entirely different thing to deliberately attempt to make it look like there was something wrong with me for wanting normal communication.
Needless to say I'm not with him anymore
It is very sneaky and mean. | |
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 6:02:52 AM | yes, being accused of things unjustly and made to second guess everything you know about yourself because of the way things are twisted is very confusing and "crazy-making"... trying to figure out the illogical with logic, because surely, he wouldn't say that or act that way, if it wasn't true... he says he loves me so therefore he must really be telling me these things for my own good... did i really say that? do that? did i forget that, like he said i did?... and then his denying he said or did something and you wonder if you can really be that crazy that you imagined it?
until you don't know if you can believe or trust yourself... because no matter what you do, it's not right, no matter how hard you try it's not what's wanted... and when you approach something the way that's asked for, suddenly that's changed too... always walking on eggshells, always hesitant and fearful when trying to talk about something, 'just in case'... a simple question is responded to as an attack, a happy laugh is taken as a mocking noise, a smile is taken as an affront - then you second guess yourself again - did i phrase the question incorrectly? perhaps if i said it this way.... maybe i laughed too loudly, perhaps if i keep it quieter... but no, it's not right, because it being not right is what he's really after, not a resolution...
it's a part of psychological abuse and another way those doing it try to control and manipulate...
gradually wears you down until you lose yourself in trying to please him and never able to succeed, because the only thing that does please him is seeing you confused and lost and weak
insidiously evil | |
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 6:41:22 AM | oh wow english lass you said a mouthful there.
You described my relationship with my mother. Not trying to hi jack the thread just adding to it. My former husband had a lot in common with my mother lol I divorced him for that kind of behaviour towards me. My eyes are wide open to this kind of abuse now. | |
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 7:19:33 AM |
and when you approach something the way that's asked for, suddenly that's changed too... always walking on eggshells, always hesitant and fearful when trying to talk about something, 'just in case'... a simple question is responded to as an attack, a happy laugh is taken as a mocking noise, a smile is taken as an affront - then you second guess yourself again
EXACTLY! My ex was bi-polar - this was him to a T! I was always 'such a horrible person' because I just wouldn't (fill in the blank) - and yet, even if I followed his script perfectly - I'd still have it all wrong. . . It's a powerful manipulation, definitely abuse and it is frightening to be in the grasp. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to identify and even harder to break away from, especially once you begin to doubt yourself. There really needs to be more general education about verbal and emotional abuse. The abusers don't even realize they are being abusive! And by the time they are fully engulfed, the abused don't trust their own judgement enough to make the decision to leave. It's really quite frightening. | |
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 7:32:03 AM | english lass wrote very well about the extreme, and awful, side of what the OP was talking about.
The very far end of the pole.. the really horrible.
Good solid post, english lass.
But then there is also lower on the pole; little 'nits', if you will, little turn-it-around-so -it-is-on-you stuff.
If something comes up that they don't want to take fault for, or feel guilty about, don't want to admit to... they'll immediatly turn it around and try to put it on you.
They try to do it subtly.. they'll be cunning about it. Next thing you know, you are appologizing.
Sometimes that's just a personality 'default'.. just a 'mildly' controlling and defensive person... never gets 'worse'.
But the bad thing is, sometimes that can grow... and eventually end up being the other end of the pole. | |
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 7:35:21 AM | I have experienced gaslighting at least twice in the last 15 to 20 years with the second instance currently happening. Although I speak of two different gaslighters, in both instances, the gaslighter was/is an individual in a Human Resources and/or supervisory position and it was/is rapidly increasing during economic recessionary periods. The only difference in "corporate" gaslighting is that it usually involves more than one "target" (employee) as it did/does in both of these cases.
While reading one of many psychology textbooks after the first instance in the 1990's, I discovered the gaslighting technique which until then was completely unknown to me. This discovery answered a lot of unanswered questions. OP, you are absolutely correct in stating
this is a dangerous and depleting game.
It is a game in which only the gaslighter knows the rules and which rules change without notice. It can wreak psychological havoc on the "target". | |
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 7:59:19 AM |
until you don't know if you can believe or trust yourself... because no matter what you do, it's not right, no matter how hard you try it's not what's wanted...
Yeah, starts off with a wonderful guy who seems so supportive, and the way it changes is slow and so insidious; he corrects in a "loving" manner, assurances that he didn't mean to misunderstand, if only it had been said with different words, a different tone, with a different facial expression. In front of others he'd be so loving, complimentary, supportive, kind, adoring; in private, the subtle and not so subtle critique. The only time he was ever really satisfied was if my remarks were some variation of "Yes, whatever you say/want/like" and "You are perfect and I adore you".
Crazy-making, indeed. Like living in an alternate universe where everything looks real, but feels insubstantial. Towards the end of the relationship, I felt mysteriously invisible and disconnected from reality. Very odd state to live in.
On the plus side - my communication skills did improve as I learned a lot while I was trying to figure out how to communicate effectively with him.
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 8:15:33 AM | | Years ago my ex husband would do this to me. One time I took one of my kids to hospital and he had the other one. He decided to go to a bar and dropped the lil one off at my sisters. He thought I was going to stay the night in the hospital with my child. I decided better of it and went home. No one home...so I phoned my sister and she said he went out for the evening and she had my other child with her. I went to the local bar he would stop off at after work and found him in a corner making out with some broad. He made me feel 2 inches tall and that I had no right looking for him. He said I didn't trust him and totally twisted everything around. No matter my what I said to him made sense (this is what he tried to make me feel like). So I know what you mean op. I never let another man treat me this way again. | |
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 8:46:48 AM | This is just one of the many games people play.
I've had both relitives and others do similar things. One just has know when someone is doing this to you and make a decision if your willing to allow that person to do these types of Con Games on you. | |
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 8:59:30 AM | ^^ that's the thing. Catching it... seeing it... knowing it.... while it's happening.
Some people can't seem to see it and get caught underneath.
Sad to see that happening. | |
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 10:06:36 AM | | Yes.....I know this method well. You're pretty much told that everything you knew to be true before hooking up with the particular person is and was WRONG. Any attempts to refute will be met with passive aggressive methods to get you to finally acquiesce as to avoid a conflict. You will then also be made to look as if YOU are the one with the problem. Gaslighters are very adept at putting on a show in front of other people. They often play the part of a very benevolent and amiable person to outsiders of the relationship, often painting you as the difficult one. Trying to get a person like this to admit what they are doing is impossible. The best way to deal with a person like this is to simply WALK...... Talking will provide the necessary material for them to use against you. This is a very self centered person who creates misbehavior patterns over and over again. Your internal reaction to them should be monitored, as it is an accurate indicator of what the person is really doing. Talk as much as the tongues in your shoes can talk when finally recognizing this type person...... | |
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 10:37:25 AM |
But then there is also lower on the pole; little 'nits', if you will, little turn-it-around-so -it-is-on-you stuff
I know this is mostly about romantic involvements, but I experience exactly what breath described.
I work as a volunteer at the VA hospital, and the woman in charge of the volunteers is a great example of gaslighting. She does it to all the volunteers, and we have tried to come up with some solution, but short of running her out of town, there is really nothing we can do. We have lost so many volunteers because of this woman. We have all come to the conclusion she must have some undiagnosed mental challenge.
Being in any kind of relationship with this type of person certainly add an element of drama to otherwise uneventful situations. | |
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 11:36:26 AM | after coming to grips with my realization and dealing with the loss of what was really an illusion, it took me about 4 days to bow out of this situation that just started to rear its ugly head--wanting to give it some time in case it was just a few really bad days for him. it was hard to think that this was happening for any other reason. how could someone be so great and understanding and then switch just like that after weeks and days and hours of talking and "bonding" on all sorts of levels?
his explanation at first appeared plausible, but it kept getting worse, even when i was not aware of it until the next "outburst". however, there was one small voice that kept saying this is happening way too fast, how could this person really "know me" versus who he wanted me to be. always listen to you inner small voice! if the arguments start becoming more and more irrational, the professionals say, stop arguing to prove your point and bow out, as gracefully as possible. fortunately a friend stepped in to my head and reminded me that this was "nuts". even if the person has some really solid issues for acting out in this manner, it does not give him or her the right to attack someone who is trying to be there and to give them some slack.
i did some more up to date reading on this topic. it appears that the literature is now more for the extreme cases of abuse and absurdity, more for those who hang in too long. i hate to think of the people in marital situations and with children who are way more trapped. i congratulate both the men and women here who have gotten out after such an extended period. i believe that if it turns to chronic abuse, the first phase of that is tearing a person down. although i am extremely nurturing, i have a really feisty side to me that does not take being sh-- or p'd on!!! that is the only way to put it. as for the comment about farting above, that too!!! although not sure it would have been part of the original attraction! 
see, it's good to get out fast and laugh at yourself. but still, you are wondering, what did "i" do? was he or she right? so, that is where i go around and ask people who know me. i even plan to ask this therapy consultant who has let me call over the past few years for a "reality check". we've agreed not to explore it in a therapy way, but just give me some pointers as to what the possibilities are here, how to learn from it, clarify if i was off base, and point me to ways of improving my own behavior in situations like this. he has always been very helpful, even in my last relationship to my ex SO.
so, there are two major pointers in the literature. one is about relationships and the other is about the workplace. the most insidious in workplace situations is with a boss, who sabatoges you constantly and then tells the outside world what a wonderful person you are. eg. forgets to tell you about important meetings and then makes lame excuses at that meeting for you, such as "maybe s/he isn't feeling well AGAIN". this is where you have to document and even tape record the person. if it's illegal, then make sure you play it to as many people as possible, keeping a copy of it in a good safe, in case they confiscate it! dire measures i know, but this is about breadwining and basics. still, i would get out asap and if necessary due to pensions, etc. i'd get an attorney fast. often bullies and manipulators don't take well to "right action".
i've seen this sort of behaviour in corporate design where each person set out to slaughter the next one. it gave me in sight into nazi germany and slavery and racisim. some of the "nicest people" became monsters or maybe they always were and you were just getting to know them. as a consultant most of my life, i said ta ta. i could see that the machine was oiled and one person couldn't do much about it. i got a lot of apologies over the next two years and it appears that all of my recommendations and assumptions about what "should" have been done, turned out to be true. only the people who did the horrible stuff were not the only ones who suffered, some good people went down with them. i think when you have to get out, there is always something better waiting for you, but you have to be willing to take the lesser risk and do it! life is not just a series of silver platters, serving you up rewards for "right action". the only reward is knowing that you would do your action again, but not take the botulism, if that should arise!
as to volunteers and employees who pass it "up", i believe there has to be codes of behavior in the workplace and that volunteers can open up an organization to just as much liablity as an employee. if the upper levels chose not to address the volunteer's behavior, then there are plenty of other places to volunteer in these economic times. volunteerism is a large resource and to ignore a situation like this, is like throwing away money. if the person is tied into the finances, such as a large donor, who then procedes to "act out" then the organization as a whole becomes "infected" just like an entire family when the one parent isn't strong enough or feeds into the one doing the "gaslighting".
they say that often the gaslighter does not feel good about him or herself in the first place, even though you thought s/he was great from the getgo! that is where it becomes illogical. how could a great person do this to me? then there is the subtle aspects of your own nature where you assume that you are a winner, so everyone is your life is also a winner and your "nurturing" aspect starts kicking in, to help someone you care about through "rough times" this is where i go wrong. i need to find someone who not only appears to be a nurturer and says he is feeling "strong", but who also has proven his own strength in little ways over longer periods of time. when a person keeps going on and on about how great he is, you've gotta wonder, what is he trying to convince me about? i know he's great. this is where being positive and caring makes you trip over your own two feet.
so, the bottom line is that if you are finding yourself emotionally overdrawn, w/o any true deposits coming into your emotional bank account (not just play deposits or empty words that are not backed up with "right attention") , then get the f out and make sure you have a positive balance and mutuality before going down this road again.
it's hard for me to figure out and assess beforehand who i am faced with, short of the obvious. gaslighters are not "obvious". my situation supposedly evolved from an online friendship, but in retrospect, i'm not going to be that open with someone any more, short of intelligent conversation until we meet and interact on a daily and more boring basis! daily living and puttering around with someone can really reveal quite a bit.
so, we are all bound to find a few "volunteers" in our lives who want to or can't help themselves from bringing us down. we also have to watch our own behaviour. being strong willed, i tend to share too much of me in the beginnning and that can be misinterpretted from somoene who is feeling weak from the start. so, they can feel an imbalance as they are not sure who they are. i can moan and groan about a situation with one foot in the water, because the rest of me is standing on solid land. even if i want to share that solid land, there is only so much i can do for someone else. they have to want to swim onto their own shores and i must not interfere with this to feel better myself knowing they are safe. this is the hardest part for me, not to "share" or to know when to stop "sharing". it has been great in certain instances as with my kids, and not great in others.
so, i need to know my audience better when i share more of myself and find collegues on this journey, not sabotagers of my journey, who want to pull me down with them. will i go forth and not give up? damn straight. however, i do really need a rest from this one, while i refill my own emotional bank account very steadily and selectively.
i never generalize to the "all". that would be like saying i can only have one job in my life, so i must suffer and everyone at the workplace is an a-hole. i figure at least 50 percent of the population cares and practices what they preach--and of that group, i just need to focus my attention on who i want as friends and community--the rest may or may not follow into intimacy, but there is always a potential pool of more and more friendships and many mini communities. being new in this area, i am forging ahead, with things i believe in and meeting slowly but surely, some really great people. i need to put my attention in those arenas. but, i do appreciate the brainstorming and sharing that happens from these forums. i do try to learn from other people.
ps to don below this post, the hard part is getting out way before all that and feeling that you were not crazy in your observations. there are books written for abusive situations that list the signs. for me, it did not go at all that far and not sure if it would. i do know that the tantrums and accusations did not serve my own wellbeing. no matter how it all started in la la land! | |
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*Don*
| | Joined: 1/30/2009
Msg: 23 | |
| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 11:48:29 AM | I've not heard of the term 'gaslighting' before -- at least, not in this connotation. But it's just another form of abuse, this time, mental. Human beings can be so inventive in the ways they devise to stomp on other human beings. I'm currently in touch with a friend who's husband beat the crap out of her a few months into a 'storybook' romance and marriage. There's so much of this type of thing out there now, that people tend to become 'numb' and insensitive to it, even at the legal and police levels.
The only thing you can do as an individual is to help when given the chance and you have become aware of it. If someone needs a place to stay, for a night, a week, give it to them. If they need to talk, give them an ear. If they need support, stand beside them. If you're the victim, in an abusive situation -- GET THE HELL OUT !! There is no amount of love, or compassion, or need, or further hardship that is worth being subjected to mental or physical abuse. And the victim will never change the abuser -- never.
D | |
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 4:05:59 PM | | Op this subject is one I have lived through personally. I found myself at my wits end wondering why everything I was doing was wrong. I found myself appoligising for everything no matter the situation she always managed to convince me it was all my fault. It preyed on me hard for many years. Friends tried to enlighten me to this but I was sure they really didnt understand as she was always the first to point out "They dont live here with you they dont know". I brushed off their ideas and soon lost those friends as she had convinced me they were just looking to make trouble. Finally I was pushed into a state of depression and sought professional help. After a week in a local hospital I was released. She filed for divorce the day I got out. She said I wasnt the man she had fallen in love with. She was right on that point and I now know why. The cat apparently got tired of her toy and was going to find a new one. After sometime of serious counceling I was brought to the realization of what had actually happened to me for those years and how to recognize the symptoms. The thing is she was so good at it that you never even realized it was there. I never had the chance to run until it was almost too late. This is one of the worst forms of manipulation that one human being can do to another. | |
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| gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 3/24/2009 4:25:19 PM | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^.............................
I only heard of this concept as mental abuse. I suppose at one time.. they had to call it something. The gaslighting story sure does fit though.
I was there.. and had it done for 16 years.
He continues to twist stories around to this day.. that happened during our marriage and afterwards.. to suit him for his friends and newest g/f.. and his mental health needs. If he was right in all that he did wrong in our marriage.. and specificly to me.. then he can't feel guilty. No guilt for him.. then he must've been the one that was abused.. not me. Poor pity him! NOT! It's a way of twisting whatever was done or said.. to make the other party look like the one in the wrong. To make you feel abusive.. and/or crazy for not realizing the obvious.. the "truth" of what was said.. and/or done.
My kids got to see this in their father as they grew older. It was strange to watch their reactions of him telling them a twisted story of how life was when he and I were together.. as they knew.. had seen things.. for how these things really were. Just how things "did" take place. They think of him as a liar.. instead of just mentally deranged. It's sad that no one is able to "make" this man seek professional help. He so dearly needs it.JMO | |
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