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| | Killing the Butterfly...Page 1 of 5 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) | It Kills the Butterfly
When I was young, and dating, and making friends, we spoke about all sorts of things, but somehow we never gave each other a cross examination. The question wasn't "What are you interested in?" It was, "Did you see that race horse yesterday?" And the conversation would either gradually come to an end, or bring new energy to what was being spoken about. Over a period of time, one would gradually find out which topics excited and which didn't. We also did a lot of things together. Someone would say, "Want to come watch cricket?" and if we said no, the next invitation might be, "Want to come to a party?" Over a period of time, we got to know what others liked without asking any questions. We didn't do it consciously, it just unfolded organically, and we just fell in with each other without even noticing.
Today, I still use this method. No surprises. The people I get on well with, and with who love affairs and friendships develop are the ones who use this method. The ones who start with the 20 questions, "Which position do you like?" "What are your interests?" "Why did your last relationship fail?" are gone with the wind. For a long time, I've thought that they are highly dysfunctional people with no idea how to relate to others. It's just occurred to me that there might be another explanation... and it's the more likely explanation.
So, here's my theory... Did one or some 'experts' teach an entire culture/generation that in order to learn to fly alongside the butterfly in perfect harmony, one had to dissect and examine the butterfly? If so, will someone please pass them back a message.
It kills the butterfly. | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 9:04:58 AM | | I have posted often about all this questioning. Many other posters have said they are curious and have the right to question. I agree OP............it definately kills the butterfly. | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 9:08:16 AM |
Did one or some 'experts' teach an entire culture/generation that in order to learn to fly alongside the butterfly in perfect harmony, one had to dissect and examine the butterfly?
Perhaps that's being taught by this very medium -- immediate examination via the written word. Don't you think it's almost a foreordained result? | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 9:14:08 AM | Op, brilliant post, I was thinking about this last night, we have taken the "fun" out of dating by trying to eliminate those who might not be a match to us based on the shear number of people who are online. We have invisible scorecards that we use to see if someone will be a good match or not. I know myself I am extremely defensive when someone writes or messages me and I have to make myself lighten up.
I was thinking how much fun it use to be to just meet someone and find out how their mind worked, what their interest were, where you could laugh and giggle all night. One guy would come into the admission office of a college where I worked and tell me insane jokes for 10 minutes and then off he would go to class. It was the fourth or fifth time he did it that he told me his name..no one on here would dare to do something fun like that! | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 9:20:37 AM | IMO, the interrogation technique gained popularity when people stopped dating for fun and started viewing dating as an interview process for a prospective mate.
Without having the credentials or references to back up my opinion, I think the fact that divorce is so prevalent has something to do with the whole thing. So many people have been burnt emotionally and financially in a divorce, that they are determined it will not happen again. Instead of just taking a chance and dating for the social interaction value, they want to be reassured if they become emotionally involved, this person is stable and sincere. | |
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*Don*
| | Joined: 1/30/2009
Msg: 6 | |
| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 9:36:52 AM | I sure can identify with this, Ms. Elegant P. I realize my views on this are usually part of a small minority, so I don't talk about them much. But I hate the questioning/grilling procedure that usually comes with dating and getting to know someone. I’ve sat on the front porch of a woman’s home with her three girlfriends, just before taking her out on our first date, while the questions directed at me made the rounds. I knew it was just curiosity so I didn’t make a big issue of it, but it sure seemed dumb to me.
The woman I’m currently dating from this site, when we went on our first date, I knew her first name, what she looked like from one picture, the fact that she didn’t like turnips and squash, and I knew which Tim Horton’s to pick her up in front of for our evening out. I had no last name, no phone, no idea where she lived, if she drove or not, what she worked at, or anything about her relationship history. I didn’t know because I didn’t ask. I didn’t ask because frankly, I didn’t care at that point. I knew that, should things progress along nicely, I’d find out everything eventually through normal conversation. We’d been dating a year before I knew that she’d never been married before. It just didn’t seem important to know that.
Nope. No twenty questions for me. No ‘must have/must not have’ checklists. No question, question, question to initiate conversation for me. I try to choose dating ideas that conversation will flow freely from the activity. I’d rather get to know the person slowly and let all the ‘details’ come out in their own time. I'm always more concerned with what a person is today. There is plenty of time to find out the paths that the person took to get there. Butterflies fly free in my world. Always have.
D | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 9:47:04 AM | Very good observations about how to ask questions and what type of questions you should use when trying to get to know someone without the dissection.
That's the way to go for sure.
Maybe that's one of the things i need to work on. | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 9:50:23 AM |
I knew it was just curiosity so I didn’t make a big issue of it, but it sure seemed dumb to me.
Well, there's a fine line, isn't there, between questioning for the sake of satisfying a curiosity, and questioning for the sake of "qualifying" your date. And I suppose it can appear dumb, but I WANT to know if you have siblings, "are your parents still alive", wasn't it cool when the slumdog millionaire phoned a friend, and his lost love answered the phone?
The difference between discovery and interrogation. Discovery is the most fun, and everybody, I suppose, has his or her own idea of how quickly that process should progress. | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 9:52:58 AM | I too, hate the interrogation technique, but I don't know what the solution is. I often bring it up and try to make a joke of it, so I can get a few answers without it seeming like an interview and balance it with some fun/laughter.
No matter how much we wish things were the same as when we were younger, they aren't! First of all, we are older and therefore (hopefully) wiser about ourselves and what we are looking for. But also, I remember when I was young and hanging out with friends, everyone was single, so we were all starting with a clear slate. True, not everyone was necessarily on the same page.......we usually found this out the hard way. At 21, I met my husband at the office where I worked.......today I come in contact with far more men than I did then (at work), but they are all married. So, we go on dating websites to find other singles, but the problem is that, this medium has the potential for alot of abuse. That's why I think the events are a good way to meet.......takes us back to a more natural state like when we were young. Also too, when we were young, we had our whole lives ahead of us, so we might not have been in such a rush, which reminds me of my last point. Not all of us have had, only bad relationships in the past and though we can live quite happily on our own, that is not point.......we now know what we are missing, (young people don't), so perhaps we try too hard to find a relationship, so we can recapture those good moments. | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 10:08:59 AM | | Interview dating is for presenting all of your excuses until you find one that works. It is the opposite of flirting, which is when you try all the ways you can love someone to see which work. | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 10:10:54 AM | So, here's my theory... Did one or some 'experts' teach an entire culture/generation that in order to learn to fly alongside the butterfly in perfect harmony, one had to dissect and examine the butterfly? If so, will someone please pass them back a message.
It kills the butterfly. - elegantpelican
I have pretty much always used this technique, as a way to get to know someone better, even as a teen. It just seems the best, most
logical way to find "a good fit", IMO.
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IMO, the interrogation technique gained popularity when people stopped dating for fun and started viewing dating as an interview process for a prospective mate. - pazoozoo
I have always thought of it that way. We take getting a job this seriously, shouldn't something much more important, be tackled with
the same seriousness? | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 10:33:44 AM | Great post....... the problem is that this is sometimes a double edged sword........
Like many, I find that I glean so much more about a person during conversation than I do through simply asking a series of questions. Like a job interview most people have canned, rehearsed answers to most of the typical questions. However, at times I have been accused of not being interested because I did not ask enough questions. Fortunately this concern is quickly quelled once I respond with all that I have learned about them. Unfortunately we are not always given that chance as people are quick to dismiss without letting you know where you fell short in their eyes...... | |
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Landra
| | Joined: 9/10/2007
Msg: 13 | |
| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 11:02:19 AM | Being young, and dating, and making friends was just for fun. It really had very little impact on our lives or our future.
With maturity, people are more apt to be dating to find a partner. They aren't dating "for fun", they're dating with a purpose: marriage, children, compatibility, etc.
I think the answer is-- people grew up. Few sit at the park after school shooting the breeze all afternoon with their chums playing a covert adolescent version of "20 questions" | |
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Bluez
| | Joined: 2/28/2009
Msg: 14 | |
| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 11:18:56 AM | I believe, and I'm sure this view isn't shared by too many, that in our society today we've lost both the arts of conversation and writing.
Being able to converse with someone is no small thing, but we tend to toss the eloquence in favor of expediency. We only have a small window of time (self-imposed in many cases) to either find enough common ground to continue finding out more, or decide that it's just not worth the effort. In our desire to speed things along, all we're left with is offering our shopping list of qualifications and see who measures up.
As for writing, and I mean truly being able to find the words that project feelings and generate mental connections, has been gone for a very long time, perhaps never to return. To read letters that were written when it was the sole source of communication between people is a wonder to behold. The exactness and command of the language, choosing just the right word or phrase, and the ability to paint mental pictures, is now lost in short emails, text messages, and phone calls. Entire relationships, filled with passion and desire, were forged by pen and paper. People weren't quick to misinterpret or jump to conclusions, they tried to view everything with optimistic eyes.
I believe that is what people miss here on POF... the ability to be seduced (and I don't mean sexually) and spoken to with a sense of awe and wonderment.
But then again, I could be full of it...
Bluez | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 11:25:37 AM | You got that right! If these women would only allow themselves to be seduced by wonderment, I would be up to my ears. You show up, sit down, lavish them with brilliant phrases and do they get wet? No, they look skeptical, and fidget until you shut up. How can they not see that their happiness depends on being willing to surrender to the magic that is my voice???
Arggghhhh.....women, bah. | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 12:19:54 PM |
I was thinking how much fun it use to be to just meet someone and find out how their mind worked, what their interest were, where you could laugh and giggle all night.
Hear! Hear! While I won't deny that I've met interesting people,etc via the internet,some who've become longstanding friends,it seems like the best romantic relationships still happen from chance meetings.
With maturity, people are more apt to be dating to find a partner. They aren't dating "for fun", they're dating with a purpose: marriage, children, compatibility, etc.
But, fer gawds' sake, shouldn't marriage and raising a family be FUN? Lord knows, there sure ain't no money in it!
I believe, and I'm sure this view isn't shared by too many, that in our society today we've lost both the arts of conversation and writing.
I share your view, and in addition, there must have been a "stupid" epidemic,as far as simple common sense about social and interpersonal skills. There's a line in a Don Henley song written over 10 yrs ago that asks how love can survive "in such a graceless age". I regret to observe that there has been no improvement in that lack of grace since.
You got that right! If these women would only allow themselves to be seduced by wonderment,
If only it were just that simple! But with the times(and things)being what they are, we women have to temper the wonderment and seduction with real world,common sense prudence. However, I believe that we OUGHT to be able to accomplish that WITHOUT killing the butterfly, but unfortunately I have to refer back to the general gracelessness of the age,and although nobody MEANS to kill the butterfly, somehow or other, all too often it winds up dead, anyway.
Cindy O | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 12:33:25 PM |
Being young, and dating, and making friends was just for fun. It really had very little impact on our lives or our future.
With maturity, people are more apt to be dating to find a partner. They aren't dating "for fun", they're dating with a purpose: marriage, children, compatibility, etc. I think the answer is-- people grew up. Few sit at the park after school shooting the breeze all afternoon with their chums playing a covert adolescent version of "20 questions"
See to me that attitude is what is wrong with dating...and I soooo disagree, when you were younger you were dating toward a future that included marriage or children...and what is compatibility without fun?????? And seriously you are judging someone based on stupid questions that wont ever show you who someone is...a woman/man can live his whole life doing all the right things, be highly successful but be a completely miserable person cause he never realized the value of fun in his life.
Rather than sitting at the park (which was great, enjoying the beauty of nature) now most are up all hours of the night sitting online in the dark looking at profiles or reading the forums, gosh havent we progressed so far!!!!!!
We are existing not living...we are so insecure in ourselves we are afraid to take a chance, we are being held hostage by FEAR of what we might lose if we got involved with the wrong person. We could loose our reputations if we are seen out with someone for *fun vs being involved for the betterment of ourselves! We might spend a few dollars for a witty conversation over dinner with someone who could point us on the road to a greater happiness but they are not a match on paper to what WE THINK WE NEED TO BE HAPPY. | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 12:46:33 PM | There are people with pins out there, which explains the rows of butterflies pinned to boards in their collections. Some people do mean to do it. They have nets, even.
Society is as graceful and graceless as ever, I think. That which is most obvious about society is obvious because it matches the expectation one has when viewing society, I think. To me what is most obvious is that society is basically unchanging while superficially it can't sit still.
Around here in the laboratory among the other grounded butterflies I notice that many wings shine from having their powder knocked off. Flights of fancy met with aeronautical catastrophe.
This is not the meadow with flowers where butterflies flit and flutter. It is the bush at the edge of the clearing where they wait sheltered by leaves while the storm passes. The flying is being done by other happy butterflies whose lives did not bring them here, or who left on a breeze.
What has worked, still works. When it's time to unfold your wings and fly again, that's what you do. And as you fly then some other butterfly will come alongside.
What doesn't work so well is to regress back into your cocoon. You can't go home again. The cocoon gets stale with bitter butterfly tears. There will not be a second metamorphosis nor any of its lovely dreams. You'll have to come out much as you were, only with bad hair from being in cramped quarters. | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 12:58:37 PM | I don't have a set criteria I'm looking for.
Nor do I go about defining a girl to a list.
(but I avoid girls who do that with guys).
Cus I'm unique and would be on a list of one.
My method is to just chat up about my life.
Interesting stuff and boring.
And like to talk to a girl about her day to day as well.
If the interesting stuff gives a girl a smile...and the boring stuff doesn't run her off..
then we may ba a match. If I'm attracteded to her then I should be interested in her day to day stuff also. If not, we're too different and our day to day together would not work.
It isn't what we are, done, accomplished, or have, that makes us good for another.
It's how we resonate together that does. ...In the small spaces of time between the stuff we'd rather be doing or stuff that is more fun.
Women who read this on my profile may strike me from their list.
That's good!
I shouldn't be on it!
cus I'm looking to fit, and for someone who fits me.
Not a criteria.
:-) | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 1:37:35 PM | ^^^
Oh and I hope spelling isn't on her list.
cus I'm slightly dYsLeXiC and muff that sometimes.
Like the above post shows.
LOL | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 1:44:49 PM | | This butterfly doesn't like being called a child. See you didn't even have to ask a question to get that particular bit of information. | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 2:43:40 PM | First off Loved the OP post and bluez. I read all the concerns, the change in dating, the change in goals, the time or timing, all of it.
While no we are not 20 anymore, we still are human. No matter what anybody says this is still supposed to be fun! If your in a hurry to meet that special guy/gal, what makes you think your going to be better at it being faster? I mean there was a time we could at least recognize that taking your time could be enjoyable.
Look at what you see on here, coffee dates, sex by the third date, security, nervous about meeting, must impress or your history. He11 I know I'm a dinosaur, but I always thought about dating on here or IRL as being, dare I say, pleasant? You can't make somebody feel at ease with a stop watch.
When I was trying to meet women, I thought a casual email exchange, followed by some phone calls, gave us a chance to know each other. Know that we both agreed we like each other enough to meet and see what happens. Without a third degree, I have been able to see if they are interesting, in fact, interesting enough to break bread with.
When it had reached that stage, I thought my objective was to take her to a nice place to dinner, then make her comfortable talking about her interests. You know music, arts, sports, where we've lived all our lives, where we traveled to. Now that to me is a good first meeting. Then if we like after a couple of hours take a walk, chat some more, then if things progress, maybe stop for a nightcap. Possibly a gentle kiss goodnight at the end. Maybe even schedule another date.
What's the rush? If you schedule 2 dates, I guess your going to have to modify that to coffee and a timetable. I'm sorry guys and gals, if I want a grilling, I'd sooner stay home and toss a steak on. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither is finding someone for the rest of your life hopefully. No we're not kids, so why do we feel the urge to act like they do? As far as I can tell, they're no better at this then we are, there is no secret to this place that requires speed. So stop and smell the roses, just like those butterflies, Bob. | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 2:46:08 PM | There are many people who zone themselves out of our dating pool without us saying a word. | |
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| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 2:51:08 PM | | The spoken word is silver & silence is golden....The more I experience life, the more I prefer meeting the opposite sex in real life thAN ON-LINE- IT SEEMS TO BE TOO MUCH WORK, WAY TOO MUCH WHEN YOU ARE ONLINE.... | |
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Jim978
| | Joined: 7/15/2008
Msg: 25 | |
| Killing the Butterfly...
Posted: 3/26/2009 2:53:15 PM |
It Kills the Butterfly
Sometimes the butterfly needs to die... 
When I was young, and dating, and making friends, we spoke about all sorts of things, but somehow we never gave each other a cross examination. The question wasn't "What are you interested in?" It was, "Did you see that race horse yesterday?" And the conversation would either gradually come to an end, or bring new energy to what was being spoken about. Over a period of time, one would gradually find out which topics excited and which didn't. We also did a lot of things together. Someone would say, "Want to come watch cricket?" and if we said no, the next invitation might be, "Want to come to a party?" Over a period of time, we got to know what others liked without asking any questions. We didn't do it consciously, it just unfolded organically, and we just fell in with each other without even noticing.
Today, I still use this method. No surprises. The people I get on well with, and with who love affairs and friendships develop are the ones who use this method. The ones who start with the 20 questions, "Which position do you like?" "What are your interests?" "Why did your last relationship fail?" are gone with the wind. For a long time, I've thought that they are highly dysfunctional people with no idea how to relate to others. It's just occurred to me that there might be another explanation... and it's the more likely explanation.
IMO, both methods can work and using one exclusively over the other gives each a bad rap. The "Want to come to a party?" sort of questioning in the 1st paragraph is a "seat-of-the-pants" method - you just go with the flow and see what happens. The more direct/specific questions in the 2nd paragraph are more of a "future looking" style. Either can be applied depending on what it is you seek. | |
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