| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 3/30/2009 12:42:33 AM | It always baffles me that so many christians are hard-core capitalists when the religion was founded by someone who was clearly a Socialist/Pacifist.
For example, and I'm paraphrasing as I don't actually have a bible on me.
SOCIALIST
"Give to all those who beg from you"
"If someone steals your coat give them your under-coat"
"It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven"
PACIFIST
"Love those who hate you"
"If someone strikes you, turn the other cheek and let them strike you again"
"Do not resist evil"
I could go on but you get the point.
My question is, how do people justify the whole "Christian right" "Bible and a gun" thing, when it seems to me that Jesus (in all likelihood) would have chased them outta the temple with a big stick. | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 3/30/2009 2:07:49 AM | Its funny because in the past weekend, I started to think the exact same thing.
I really did. 
You show him a world where the leading authoritative entities are so rigid that they demand their foundation convert to unnatural extremes just to make it all work, and he'd probably wouldn't be able to handle it.
It would probably drive him insane.
Jesus came back, he's just in a lunatic asylum or prison somewhere.
The state put him there. lol
Now excuse me. I have to go and buy/sell mounds of useless crap that I don't even need and can't afford, nor anyone else. But I have been convinced it is essential to do, because the privatized institutions that manufacturer it all, are so integrated into supporting our whole, that I have to become a slave to what they produce. | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 3/30/2009 2:11:59 AM | Everything I've read about Jesus says to me he was anti-establishment.
I've always found it a bit ironic that you could be punished severely for breaking the rules in a movement that was founded based on the fact it broke the rules.
When you think of it, even sacrifice can be a militant action without throwing a punch. I think Jesus was probably a pretty cool guy who was militant in his beliefs but non-violent. To me, that says he was more aware than the majority of those around him.
If Jesus were to return today, I think he would dislike organized religion. It being different times, he would explain things a bit differently so that the meaning behind some of what he was spreading was more apparent. However, I would imagine what he said would be considered a threat by organized religion and he'd get accusations of being a false prophet for those that feared the end of it.
Maybe god doesn't create a Jesus, but a society that gets so corrupt it needs one. | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 3/30/2009 6:21:11 AM |
Maybe god doesn't create a Jesus, but a society that gets so corrupt it needs one.
I think it needs several. Maybe this reawakening of compassion and social justice are what we could consider the "second coming"! | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 3/30/2009 6:46:40 AM | People are not christian because they call themselves christian. They are Christian if they behave as Jesus did. This lot you're talking about are not Christian at all.
When you think of it, it's crazy that people believe what others say about themselves. Liars call themselves honest, hypocrites and bigots call themselves christian, and because they say so, they're believed. Who's more likely to pretend to be what they're not? Right - the people who want to appear acceptable to others despite their true selves. When are people gonna learn?
Don't be fooled by people who say they're 'christian' and then behave in less-than-loving ways to their fellow humans. | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 3/30/2009 9:12:53 AM | I've always assumed that early Christians were Communists (community-owned or held, property shared for the common good), not Socialists (state-sponsored charity for the sick, the elderly, the infirm).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism
I always enjoy the popular misinterpretations of the "eye of the needle" quote. It doesn't suggest, at all, that the wealthy can't get into heaven. It says that they must not be burdened by owning material things.
The eye of the needle was not the sewing needle we think of when we hear the word. The eye of the needle was a portal into a walled city. It was constructed in such a manner so as to prevent attackers mounted on camels from riding through the gate. It was low, so a rider would be knocked off. Merchants with large loads on their camels were forced to unload their animals to clear the portal. This is also where tax collectors inspected the merchant’s inventory and collected taxes. In short, every camel entering the eye of the needle was "unburdened" of its load. If the merchant did not unload the burden on his camels, he could not enter the city. So, this passage is basically stating that we must unburden our loads prior to entering the Kingdom of Heaven, and a love of money, rather than a love of Christ, is a burden. Being rich is not a prohibition to entering Heaven.
In my experience, that interpretation always seems to drive Fundamentalists into a rabid fury, for some reason.
Illustration of "The Eye of the Needle." Notice the camel has been unloaded prior to entering the "Eye" - "unburdened by material things," which is the point of the analogy.
http://mysite.verizon.net/res22145/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/eye_of_a_needles.jpg | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 3/30/2009 9:47:48 AM | ^^^^
The Fundamentalists dislike your (correct) interpretation of that passage because they would prefer that the faithful unload their riches onto them than believe that they can be both rich and good. | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 4/2/2009 3:35:07 AM | Jesus wasn't anti-establishment:
“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” - Matthew 22:21
And he wasn't a pasifist:
"The person who doesn't have a sword should sell his coat and buy one." - Luke 22:36
“There is a time for everything and a season for every activity under the heaven…a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace." - Ecclesiastes 3:1, 3, & 8
(No, it wasn't The Beatles that came up with it...)
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law---a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household’” - Matthew 10:34-36
“While people are saying, ‘Peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape” - 1 Thessalonians 5:3
Don't even get me started on the old testimant. I think even Christians can agree the God of the OT was venomous and very very pro-war. | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 4/2/2009 7:16:50 AM | Thoroughly agree, the truth is that most who claim to be christians are not,
Christianity is not a religion to be followed, it is a truth to arrive at....... | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 4/2/2009 7:29:09 AM | The human spirit will not long for the freedom of death if it resides in the pleasures of the body and holds on to the material world and exsistence,
The spirit is set free and rises onward upon death willingly,
It is not about not having physical pleasure and knowing great wealth and material success,
The spirit cannot be fed on pleasure and wealth it grows from pain suffering poverty and loss
It thrives in these times , it is in these times that the true christians show themselves they donot blame or pity themselves they thank the universe for showing them the value of life and learn to connect with the great spirit
It is about values, and knowing ones spirit and the intention of the material life we have experienced here and the purpose of all that we expereince here
It is about no longer fearing death and yearning for the freedom of the spirit from all that is earthly and human
Is death the price you pay for life or is life the price you pay for death
The answer separates a true christian from a phony.......... | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 4/2/2009 9:43:43 AM | Jesus might or might not have been a real person.
Jesus the Christian Icon however has been elevated to the point where he must be all things to all people. So we have groups stating that Jesus was a Socialist, other groups stating that Jesus believed in tough love and would not have 'wimped' out with socialism, we have Jesus with the sword, Jesus with the 'love thy enemies' speech. Meek Jesus, happy Jesus, Angry Jesus... the list goes on. He lived two thousand years ago and wasn't even properly written up about (if he ever existed as one individual) till hundreds of years after his death and subsequently those writings were heavily edited by a less-that-ethical Christian religious beaurocracy.
What matters most is our 'personal' Jesus, and pretty much anyone who was raised Christian has one... that 'personal' Jesus, the mental construct, can personify our conscience and be our confidant or advisor when no one else is around. | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 4/2/2009 7:15:42 PM |
Don't even get me started on the old testimant. I think even Christians can agree the God of the OT was venomous and very very pro-war.
Much of what is in the bible is a contradiction of terms with many of the actions taken by Jesus and the followers of god in the bible. If you took Buddhist like philosophy but overlaid them with politics, war and a 'there can be only one' god, you may come up with something very a kin to what is in the christian bible. It's why there are some metaphors there to keep but I personally would not take it all as fact and with the realization that there were far more stories that were excluded and never made it into a bible which wasn't written until long after Jesus's death.
I get my feeling about Jesus due to many of the underlying philosophies in the bible. Those philosophies are not solely christian because many are logical. However, the person to see them is likely to be a highly perceptive individual and there are certain things that go along with that personality and philosophy.....including a dislike for violence, extremes, and unnecessary control that harms growth.
However, the theory I heard about how the bible was formed, would indicate a lot of what was included in the bible were popular stories, not necessarily accurate ones. Regardless of all these different types of stories, that underlying philosophy is still there. | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 4/2/2009 9:47:13 PM | Wow... The Wehrmacht must've taken Jesus literally... Before they slogged their way into Stalingrad and froze their butts off...
"The person who doesn't have a sword should sell his coat and buy one." | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 4/2/2009 10:44:32 PM | | I agree with O.P. My take was thatJesus was always a hard take for most men. Crucified???!!!! What the...???? Frankly this Jesus creature, you could literally curl up at his feet. Nothing wrong with that. We...all of us...need comfort. Before we go on. Yes, J. was a Socialist , plus (as portrayed) pretty damn cool. You do not meet many J's this and any day. Too bad. | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 4/3/2009 11:19:33 PM | | I don't think Jesus ever tried to force everyone follow his teachings. Isn't that what you anti-Christians are so against? | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 4/3/2009 11:42:12 PM |
Isn't that what you anti-Christians are so against?
Not at all... You're getting the wrong impression... We love the idea of Jesus - in fact he's welcome to come turn my toilet water into Tokay anytime...
It's his self proclaimed and over zealous followers that drive us to distraction...
If they would only preface each action and every syllable from their mouths with "What would Jesus do or say in this situation?", and then act accordingly; well then I guess we heathens would have nothing to complain about, would we?... | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 4/4/2009 6:45:33 AM | Jesus was a Socialist
Ya, and he was also unemployeed, single and had no kids...what's your point?
Now I'm not trying to knock anyone's faith, but Jesus didn't have to balance the responsibilities of being a husband or a father with his life's quest did he? How much shorter would the New Testament have been if Jesus only had Sundays to teach people thanks to a busy life full of responsibility.
Socialism isn't the doomsday scenario the far right tries to paint it as, but neither is good for a nation as a whole. If you want to see socialism in action just take a close look at our allies of Western Europe. They aren't doing too bad, but not too great either. Indeed, anyone can plainly see they are quite stagnant and unproductive.
The problem with socialism is it encourages laziness and discourages ambition. Period.
Here in America we are currently moving closer and closer to socialism and the result is clear, we are losing our status as a global power. Poverty is rewarded with tax returns that weren't earned and welfare and unemployment benefits that no man or woman should need. Success is punished by ever increasing tax rates that take away the profit motive.
Many on the left see no problem with wealth redistribution until they actually try to get ahead. It's why the young and/or poor start out Democrats and end up Republicans as they grow wealthier and wiser. | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 4/4/2009 6:47:33 PM | I once saw a propaganda poster of Jesus carrying the nazi-brand swastika, so in some areas, he might be considered a socialist.
But isn't socialism just another form of government? Supposedly, Jesus is not a fan of government. | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 4/4/2009 7:16:52 PM |
Many on the left see no problem with wealth redistribution until they actually try to get ahead. It's why the young and/or poor start out Democrats and end up Republicans as they grow wealthier and wiser.
I think the point the OP is making and their observation of Jesus is that growing older does not necessarily equal wealthier and wiser if it is linked to an attachment to materialism. Jesus words seem to indicate a lack of attachment to material property, goods held in common and used only as necessary to "just get by" and absolutely no thought given to "getting ahead" because if you have no attachment to materiality, then getting ahead serves no useful purpose.
Heavily laden camel, meet Eye of the Needle. | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 4/4/2009 11:30:00 PM | The U.S. deserves to lose their position. What a silly country. No medical system. Socialism is Communism. You start Democrat, end up Republican. A country that needs to sink into the sunset, power-wise, hopefully soon. Too young, too brash, too in need of correction. Maybe they should try socialism. They may learn something.
t | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 4/5/2009 12:00:17 AM | I once saw a propaganda poster of Jesus carrying the nazi-brand swastika, so in some areas, he might be considered a socialist.
But isn't socialism just another form of government? Supposedly, Jesus is not a fan of government.
Do you know where I can find that picture. I am curious if it was a left-facing manji, or right-facing manji. | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 4/5/2009 12:04:32 AM | "...I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. "
This statement alone, which is attributed to Jesus, would lead me to believe he was not a capitalist.
"1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles. "
Based on this online dictionary definition of socialism, I don't think he could be labeled a socialist either. Somewhere in between. I don't know of any case where he wanted to end private ownership of businesses or homes. Commune style living was not something he advocated, as far as I know. But mutual support and concern for each other and the community would have been. | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 4/5/2009 6:26:04 AM | | I personally believe jesus is the creation of a capitalist society, as are santa claus and the easter bunny. An icon invented to renew belief as well as increasing income. | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 4/5/2009 9:27:30 AM | | I just figured him for a carpenter who liked to shoot the shit alot... Like the guy who built my deck... | |
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| Jesus was a Socialist
Posted: 4/5/2009 11:52:13 AM | | As a Christian, I have been long puzzled why so many other Christians seem to equate being a Conservative with being a Christian. I used to think Christians supported Republicans for opposing abortion and gay marriage, but I hear Christians spout Conservative thinking all the time which clearly is not what Jesus had in mind. If Jesus came in human form and was interviewed on Larry King or whatever, many Christian groups would indeed brand Him as either a socialist or a liberal. There are Christian groups like the Sojourners who realise Jesus did not come to preach the joys of capitalism. | |
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