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| | Your case for/against God.Page 1 of 13 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13) | Personally, I view the bible as nothing more than fairytales written by people just trying to understand the world of their era.
I've even read that it is a tool created by the waning Roman empire to maintain control of the ignorant masses. (cunning plan that's worked impecibly if that was the case)
That doesn't mean I discount the existance of a supreme being....there is indeed, a lot of evidence to support the theory.
What is beyond space?
Why does everything die?
How come there are so many levels of existance?
How incredible is it that our genetics evolved a trigger that prevents species interbreeding......afterall, we all evolved from the same primordial soup.
If this wasn't the case, evolution wouldn't have taken place at all and we wouldn't be here. (I do believe in evolution so pointing out why or how the trigger came about isn't for this thread)
When you stand and look at the stars, great scenery or a new born child....What is that that your feeling?
A feeling of being part of something more, something greater? (or is that just me? :o))
No doubt these (or similar) are questions that led to the bible in the first place, based on mans innate need to comprehend what/how/why he is.
So, what are your arguments for or against God?
(no bible preaching allowed :o)) | |
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DSV2
| | Joined: 2/4/2009
Msg: 2 | |
| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/13/2009 9:23:59 AM | I love Al Pacino's monologue in Devil's Advocate :
" Who are you carrying all those bricks for anyway? God? Is that it? God? Well, I'll tell ya, lemme give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts! He gives this extraordinary gift and then--what does he do? I swear--for his own amusement--his own private cosmic gag reel--he sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time! Look. But don't touch! Touch. But don't taste! Taste. Don't swallow! [laughs] And while you're jumping from one foot to the next, he's laughing his sick f*cking ass off!! He's a tight ass, he's a sadist, he's an absentee landlord!"
Just love it. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/13/2009 10:41:11 AM | | in order for me to not belive in god i would have to find a different reason for the way nmy life was saved when i pleaded for him to help me,and i have thought of other ways.all of it points directly to him.explaining it is like trying to explain falling in love to someone who has never fallen in love.but if you have the time i will do the best i can.one thing i know for sure.god loves us all even if we dont believe in him.his love is unconditional.however ,like all love,if it is not going both ways it is pretty ineffective. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/13/2009 12:28:53 PM | I don't have a problem with God. . . 'Organized Religion', well, that's a whole 'nother story. There's a bunch of sick MF's!  | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/13/2009 6:09:11 PM |
So, what are your arguments for or against God?
Honestly, I have no 'for or against' arguments. I simply believe in 'God', though not in quite the same context as some. It's all a matter of faith on my part. Interestingly, the rest of my family either doesn't believe in God, or are ambivalent...but I've always had what I refer to as an 'inner knowing'. I can't justify my faith in any way...it just *is*. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/13/2009 9:35:45 PM | Is God any more likely to exist than the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot or the Yeti? I don't know, but wouldn't go down the road of belief in any of them without some very compelling evidence.. and no - footprints or dung would not suffice.
In the case of God, I would be very interested to know what he looks like, cause I think it would most prob'ly be unlike any of our preconceptions that are based on religious books and suchlike. My wild guess is that he might be just a big eye with all veins surrounding it like in the film "The Trollenberg Terror" that I remember watching on telly in the early sixties with my brother.
The film probably looks very tame by modern standards but it fired our youthful imaginations... | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/13/2009 9:46:50 PM | Personally, I am not very religious especially in regards to organized religions. But I do feel it is important for people to have something to believe in, to pull them through the times when they need to feel that there is a higher purpose to their lives. Whether that be god or some form of higher being!
\
For bible thumpers out there here is a trivia question? When was the bible written or compiled for those literal types? Who and what edited the book? If you tell an account of an event today and then pass it down for 8 generations do you think the account will be told word for word 400 years later? Will the under lying message be the same?
Just some food for thought!
BTW - great thread post! | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/13/2009 11:57:02 PM | | Well I have no arguments for or against God though I did find Jesus. He was hiding behind the couch. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/14/2009 1:28:09 AM |
there is indeed, a lot of evidence to support the theory.
What is this evidence? | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/14/2009 1:45:00 PM | What is beyond space?
Space is infinite, so there can't be anything "beyond" it.
Why does everything die?
Mitochondria gets damaged, as does DNA, and cells can only be replaced so many times.
How come there are so many levels of existance?
I don't understand this question.
When you stand and look at the stars, great scenery or a new born child....What is that that your feeling?
You're making the assumption that everybody has this same feeling which isn't the case.
As for my "case against God;" the Christian god is completely illogical. There are so many things that don't make sense in the Bible. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/15/2009 1:51:05 AM |
As for my "case against God;" the Christian god is completely illogical. There are so many things that don't make sense in the Bible.
Can you give one principle example for this? Thanks. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/15/2009 12:02:56 PM |
Can you give one principle example for this? Thanks.
The fact that God created humans to begin with. He had angels, yet they weren't enough? Why would a god "desire" or "need" to create man in his own image? Why would he go about doing so when he new how much suffering would ensue by doing so? Why would he let Satan in the garden? That's the main thing I find illogical. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/15/2009 12:58:42 PM | ^^^^^ I find the whole idea of God making man "in his own image" illogical. Does this mean that God is an entity that shares our advanced big brained upright ape bodyplan, but with puzzlingly extreme creative powers? If so, did he also share our history of evolution from more primitive forms?
More questions than answers. I would be totally okay with God turning out to actually exist, especially if he does have a friendly and benign nature, but I think scepticism is advisable, in the absence of all the relevant data. God's true nature may differ disastrously from how he is envisaged by the various Earthly religions - he could be something entirely different. He might even be totally evil, and us relatively decent humans have evolved accidentally in a far flung corner of the universe that has so far escaped his baleful eye. It could be that when his Angelic minions perform their regular 300,000 yearly census of the universe, we'll be discovered and quietly euthanised to make space for another of the Mainman's absorbing experiments with giant reptiles.
Maybe we should seek to advance militarily to the extent that we are able to put up a fight.. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/15/2009 5:31:01 PM | somebody please hand me my crayons cuz I got something I need to write --hehehe  
Yep,G-d and me was having us some one on one time just the other day.And we'll if indeed I heard correctly(keep in mind,I did start this off with someone please hand me my crayons.
 )
First off,he(choice of pronoun)loves to hear us ponder in his name apparently,but seems the "arguing" for and/or against was not what this is referring .To begin with,it seems that who he is or who is not doesn't depend on contingent beings such as ourselves. I'll just give ya a breakdown of some of the things we talked about.
Now all this depends on if I heard it right--hehehe--And I believe the feedback I was getting was more in the form questions like for example;
I give ya science as a tool --vessel if you will but that doesn't mean science can explain and or define who I am---in others,natural and supernatural are not synonyms--think about it--if science was in the business of adjudicating G-d questions and making truth claims then that would put my 'faith' business right out business,would it not?
Don't cha think there just might be a good reason why it's set up that control experiments,etc are limited? Don't cha think that it is faith that pleases me the most?
And if you've read any of the ancient texts,ya might come to the conclusion that I'm quite found of poetic form and metaphors ----does it not indeed give creativity and the imagination freedom to roam and breathe....and maybe even bring one closer to where the riddle itself breathes?
If I wanted it set up to where the 5 senses instrument and/or scientific cognition could gauge who I am or am not then don't cha think I could have made that possible? Think about it--it seems science has the brain all mapped out but has little to say about consciousness--wonder why it's that way?
And let's get to this 5 senses instrument and scientific cognition.Do ya really think that is the only warranted assertabilty for what is knowledge and how is knowledge obtained? If that was the case,then why are there so many of ya living your life and making so many decisions based on your valued judgments and subjective knowing? Think about it--"without conceptualized constraints,it be hard for a lot of people to be able to talk about reality at all"(okay okay,I might have gotten than part from one of my favorite philosophers-hehehe)
And all this "arguing" for and against me--trying to construct logical arguments using human intellect,human definitions,human everything--what's up with that? Do you think you can limit me to that--box me up to your reasoning?What makes you think you know all the reasons why I do all the things I do? Again, do ya think it's fair to put a strangle hold/limitations on me like that? You cats live the day by day--consistency--that which does not change--Don't cha think I have certain plans already in place for the future and that I'm not limited in that way---the way that you are?
And think about it next time ya try to limit me to human intellect,human emotions,human definitions,human logic,human anything! Think abiut it--Is logic this some kind of absolute law the rules the universe or even governs human behavior? See where ya I'm going with that?
For example,one of the greatest gifts there is--love. Is love always rational?
And oh yeah,he said something about others that keep saying that he said this and he said that---there's times he would like to ring out this voice saying,"Hey wait a min,I didn't say that"--but he likes for ya to keep pondering in his name and seek him and that way you will figure it out---or not.
P.S. I did start this off with 'hand me my crayons" so I hope I haven't offended or trespassed--just my uncanny wit and please know that this post is just belief and faith--not intended as any form of exclusivity of truth.
stay kewl everybody
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/15/2009 6:15:10 PM | Read, in the voice of George Burns.
God: Why is it so hard for you to believe? Is my physical existence any more improbable than your own? What about all that hoo-ha with the devil awhile ago from that movie? Nobody had any problem believing that the devil took over and existed in a little girl. All she had to do was wet the rug, throw up some pea soup and everybody believed. The devil you could believe, but not God? I work in my own way. I don't, I don't get inside little children; they got enough to do just being themselves. Also I'm not about to go around to every person in the world and say, 'Look it's me, I wanna talk to you.' So I picked one man. One very good man. I told him God lives. I live. He had trouble believing too, in the beginning. I understood. I'm not sure how this whole miracle business started, the idea that anything connected with me has to be a miracle. Personally I'm sorry that it did. Makes the distance between us even greater. But if a miracle helps you believe that I am who I say I am... I'll give you one. A good one.
I know how hard it is in these times to have faith. But maybe if you could have the faith to start there, maybe the times would change. You could change them. Think about it. Try. And try not to hurt each other. There's been enough of that. It really gets in the way. I'm a God of very few words and Jerry's already given you mine. However hopeless, helpless, mixed up and scary it all gets, it can work. If you find it hard to believe in me, maybe it would help you to know that I believe in you.
You can love each other, cherish and nurture each other or you can kill each other. Incidentally, "kill" is the word. It's not "waste." If I had wanted "waste" I would have writen "thou shalt not waste." You're doing some very funnny things with words. You're also turning the sky into mud. I look down, I can't believe the filth. Using the rivers for toilets, poisoning my fishes. You want a miracle? *You* make a fish from scratch. You can't. You think only God can make a tree? Try coming up with a mackeral. And when the last one's gone, that'll be that. Eighty-six on the fish, goodbye sky, so long world, over and out.
Amen. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/15/2009 8:00:03 PM |
Can you give one principle example for this? Thanks.
IF God of the bible were real...
Why would he create the human race to desire evidence of things existing, but then require faith (which can't exist with evidence - evidence forms beliefs - can't have both) as a requisite to getting into heaven. Why only allow "one true religion", his, but not provide any reason to follow Christianity over the hundreds (thousands?) of other thiesms, philosophies etc all?
How can an "all powerful and omnipotent creator" love us unconditionally, but allow us to go to hell? If you loved your child unconditionally, wouldn't you exercise your power to keep such a thing from happening?
If the bible is the end-all be-all truth about God & his son, why wasn't it assembled until hundreds of years AD? Why was it assembled by men, who were directed to do so by a king? Why didn't God or Jesus have any oversight? If Jesus knew all, and could predict the future, why didn't he just name the books & letters his father intended to be assembled as "the new book"?
Why was Jesus sacraficed to "save" all of humanity when there was already a mechanism for gentiles to get into heaven? "kind compassionate ones of the nations of the world" could enter heaven by fulfilling the seven laws of Mohite.
What is the mechanism for throwing out Old Testament laws, but keeping others? e.g. Why do Christians overwhelmingly support Leviticus 18:22 (the anti-gay law), but ignore other laws of Leviticus:
* Not being with a woman during her moment of menstrual uncleanliness Lev 15:19-24
* Owing slaves as outlined by Lev. 25:44
* Why aren't most Christians aware eating shellfish is an abomination Lev 11:10
* Men are allowed to cut their hair (including around temples), even though it's clearly not allowed Lev 19:27
* Touching a football (made of pig's skin) makes you unclean Lev 11:6-8
* Why is it legal to allow farmers to plant multiple crops, which isn't allowed per Lev 19:19
* Burning people to death is God's preferred method of punishment for certain sexual acts Lev. 20:14
Shall I go on, or are you bored yet? | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/15/2009 8:34:13 PM | | I'm just curious about something....if indeed,one takes the position that the bible is not considered objective truth and at the same time uses the bible to try and prove the bible wrong,wouldn't that be somewhat of a contraction? | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/15/2009 11:17:02 PM |
I'm just curious about something....if indeed,one takes the position that the bible is not considered objective truth and at the same time uses the bible to try and prove the bible wrong,wouldn't that be somewhat of a contraction?
This kind of thing is done in mathematics all the time. If you want to prove that a proposition is false then first assume it's true. Then demonstrate that this logically leads to the deduction that the proposition is false.
If God were charged with the crime of existing then there wouldn't be sufficient evidence to convict. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/16/2009 1:37:43 AM | The fact that God created humans to begin with. He had angels, yet they weren't enough? Why would a god "desire" or "need" to create man in his own image? Why would he go about doing so when he new how much suffering would ensue by doing so? Why would he let Satan in the garden? That's the main thing I find illogical.
Well it was God through and for and by His agent, that man was created (Colossians 1:16, 17; John 1:1, 3; Genesis 1:26.) And the punishment of the judgement was made for the angels which failed God's will, as the serpent (Satan) did in the garden (Matthew 25:41; Ezekiel 28:13-15; John 8:44; Genesis 2:17; 3:4; Romans 5:12; 1 John 3:8.)
OK, you fail to see God's purpose and logic in this (Isaiah 55:9; Romans 3:11.)
The truth is, unless you really want the truth, you will not see the logic in it. (John 14:6.) | |
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Vancer
| | Joined: 10/29/2006
Msg: 23 | |
| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/16/2009 1:59:38 AM | God is whatever a belief system is wholly focused on to explain everything.
As much of existence as possible is being used as references that help to support their belief.
Some cultures believe it is existence.
Some believe it is non-existence.
Some believe it is goodness.
Some believe it is indifference.
Some believe it is obligation.
Some believe it is randomness.
Each group are all convinced with absolute certainty.
Let's not stand in the way of the certain. It bothers them too much. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/16/2009 11:19:01 AM |
This kind of thing is done in mathematics all the time. If you want to prove that a proposition is false then first assume it's true. Then demonstrate that this logically leads to the deduction that the proposition is false.
If God were charged with the crime of existing then there wouldn't be sufficient evidence to convict.
And all this gets me thinking even further....in other words,if this experiment only exist in thought,things really might not be that way at all...not to mention,deductive reasoning may get one to the valid and invalid but that's not quite the same as a true or false....kinda like the difference in a valid argument vs sound argument possibly.
And then if ya gonna try and break it down logically so speak,I think that one would have to give the language used a clear identity in order for logical consequence to follow...and notwithstanding the possible metaphors and the poetic form one may find within a text written,still yet,even the imo most profound word,'exist' for example needs to have a clear identity in this thought experiment we got going here. And with this,imo one needs be prepared for a debate where language comes into play possibly....for example,surface grammar vs deep structure,context,mental predicates,real predicates,etc.
And then of course this thought experiment itself.
If you want to prove that a proposition is false then first assume it's true.
Did ya think it --imagine it---and with your thoughts,bring it into existence just so you could deny it's existence? Dang that's a heck of a lot of work not to mention,again,what I believe to be somewhat of a contradiction. But we still have the words,"perhaps and maybe" we can play with,(just trying to make ya smile)...ya do get me thinking CountIbli--thanks for sharing! | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/16/2009 3:52:23 PM | RE Msg: 21 by CountIbli:
I'm just curious about something....if indeed,one takes the position that the bible is not considered objective truth and at the same time uses the bible to try and prove the bible wrong,wouldn't that be somewhat of a contraction? This kind of thing is done in mathematics all the time. If you want to prove that a proposition is false then first assume it's true. Then demonstrate that this logically leads to the deduction that the proposition is false.
To do this with a book, you would first make a series of axioms about books in general, and then prove that those axioms cannot be true if the book is true. That leads you to 2 possibilities: the book is untrue or one of those assumptions are untrue. But you must first be clear about all the assumptions you require to prove the book untrue, and why they must all logically be 100% true, but not have to be rationally true, as the universe is rational to us only in Euclidean terms, but not logical to us in Euclidean terms, and we accept that the universe can be irrational, but it cannot be illogical.
When people examine the Bible, and find it wanting, that leads them to one of 2 conclusions, the Bible is incorrect, or the assumptions that they made in their investigations are incorrect. Most people don't question their assumptions.
If God were charged with the crime of existing then there wouldn't be sufficient evidence to convict. Surely it is as much a crime for you to exist, as for G-d to exist? Should we lock you up? | |
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