| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/19/2009 11:32:01 AM | I'm writing this thread because of the difficulties I've had with dating women over the past few years. I've had a very hard time getting past the initial stage of meeting a woman. Over and over, I've found myself turned off or annoyed by my interaction with a woman I just met after just a few minutes. After experiencing this time and time again, I started analyzing myself to find out why, and I realized that it's because I really dislike the role of the skeptic that many women play when meeting a guy. I'm tired of being looked at and treated like I have to prove that I'm either not like the other guys that a woman has dated/known or I have to prove that I'm worthy of her. In my personal experience, this seems to be the mentality of most attractive and single young women (ages 21 - 34).
When I approach an attractive woman, it's extremely likely that she has already been approached many times that day and probably dozens of times that week. I'm sure that many, if not most, of the men who approached her aren't even close to what she would date so that basically makes her jaded to the whole experience of being approached by any man. This part of the experience right there is what drives me nuts because, if I want a woman's attention for long enough to have a conversation, I've got to prove to her that talking to me will not be a waste of her time. You may be thinking, "Yeah, but that's understandable. A beautiful girl gets hit on all the time. Everybody knows that." I agree with you. But here's the problem: in the American culture, BEAUTY is the gold standard that puts these women in such a position of power.
When women get the amount of attention that has them feeling tired of being approached by men, and skeptical of any man who does approach her, it's purely because of physical beauty. She doesn't have to show men that she's a good person, successful in some way or another, highly educated, intelligent, financially stable, etc. in order to be so highly coveted by men. All she has to do is meet a certain standard of beauty and all of a sudden she's in a position to hold any potential suitor to a standard that doesn't likely meet herself in the categories of financial stability, education, personality, athletics, and so on. A gorgeous woman who barely graduated high school and lives in a trailer park simply has to put on a nice dress and go out to a social scene in order to have men who are successful in all categories competing for her attention. As a man who genuinely wants to meet a woman who brings to the table just as much as I do, I find it frustrating to have a woman treat me like I have to prove that I'm worthy of her while she doesn't even think about whether or not she has to be worthy of me. All I'm saying is that I want there to be mutual respect and consideration. I know that, in a society in which beauty is being glorified in all forms of entertainment and marketing, it's virtually impossible to find a beautiful woman who values her intellectual more than her physical image, but I'm just venting here.  | |
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| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/19/2009 11:42:20 AM | no offense brother, but you sound like you have a small d1ck man's complex.
you shouldn't have to feel like you have to prove anything. why do you get annoyed with women? or is it women that are getting annoyed with you, which in turn causes annoyance to yourself?
people are people. look within. | |
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| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/19/2009 11:53:58 AM | okay, so society may have deemed that outward beauty holds huge power (and it's actually not just that, but the way we're wired and has been - remember helen of troy, as an eg.)
but you don't have to play into that
let the woman feel as though she needs to catch your attention... don't fawn over her... say hi and excuse me, to get past her for a drink... and then pay her no more attention
for someone who's constantly being pursued this may well be an intriguing challenge for her and capture her interest
but of course, she'll need to find you attractive too - for her to want to get you to notice her
and don't blame her for her beauty and for how it has attracted other men, it's really not her *fault* and the resentment and or insecurity from feeling that way may well seep through in how you interact with her | |
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| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/19/2009 11:57:55 AM | | Lol no offense taken. If I sound like that to you, then you've missed the message. I don't personally feel like I have to prove anything to a woman, but women treat men like a man has to prove he's worth of her. I'm annoyed at getting that response from women. I don't have any problems with meeting and dating a woman, but the entire time I feel like I'm being scrutinized with a skeptics microscope. Get it? As for your last sentence "People are people. Look within." That's EXACTLY what I'm saying I want women to do. You missed the point, brother. | |
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| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/19/2009 11:59:43 AM | How do you know that the pretty women are being hit on all night long? I remember there being a couple of "Jenny Jones" shows with the topic of "I'm too beautiful to get a date" that I think may have some truth to it.
Another factor is that she has to prove something to you in terms of those other things you value like personality, education, financial stability, spirituality, and so on that you can't look at a person and figure all this out. You may want to reassess how you get to know someone, whether the relationship be romantic, professional or something else.
Just some thoughts that may run counter to some of your points. | |
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| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/19/2009 12:08:42 PM | | No, I don't blame a woman for being beautiful. She's been set up to respond the way she does. Insecurity isn't an issue either because I don't hold her beauty in as high a regard as most men do. In the scenarios that I'm describing, mutual attraction is established and she's made her interest known. My problem is the skeptical attitude I get during the dating process, nothing more. It's like being guilty until proven innocent. | |
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| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/19/2009 12:11:45 PM | | I agree with your statement about some women being so beautiful that they don't get approached at all. However, that point doesn't apply to what I'm describing because I'm talking about women that I HAVE approached and started dating. I approach the process of dating a woman as getting to know her as a person, as opposed to looking at her and making sure she's not like the other women I've dated or looking at her like she has to have certain things in order to be with me. That's the mentality of many women that I'm addressing here. | |
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Gorbzy
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Joined: 12/27/2008
Msg: 9 | |
| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/19/2009 2:09:32 PM | look mate, how do you expect a stranger to respect you for anything more than as another stranger when you meet them?
And what happened to approaching women as a person and in a friendly manner to see if she's friendly as well rather than like a prize you gotta win? If you treat her like one, she feels it, and she's used to it by now like you've said. I'm not talking about friends first here, I'm just talking about meeting new people.
Loose the hook-up mentality and it won't bother you anymore.
edit:
ok, I read some of your subsequent posts and I'm under the impression that you like to take women to fancy dinners all the time where she has no choice but to evaluate if it's worth her time, besides the food. I may be wrong, sorry if that's the case, but if not try doing something out of the ordinary with her, a sport, something fun, or just cute.
cheers mate | |
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| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/19/2009 3:05:13 PM |
I'm tired of being looked at and treated like I have to prove that I'm either not like the other guys that a woman has dated/known or I have to prove that I'm worthy of her.
OP: You're probably going to get worked over a little on this thread. You're being honest about your challenges; but, frankly, most people get over this kind of social insecurity in their teens.
People rate each other in life. That's not a bad thing...it's normal, and you even do it yourself. Look at it this way: would you want a female family member to just date the first guy who comes down the pike? Of course not. You'd want her to be selective, and get the best match for herself. You would want your brother or a male family member to find a girl who has good qualities and is a good person. I'm sure you have standards for women you are attracted to. So, all of this is natural and normal. That's why the screening process should be welcomed and not dreaded. You're going to have to learn to be completely unfazed by it.
Focus on what kind of woman you want while screening prospects, and then initiate contact with women who have the qualities you're looking for. If you do this right, there should be at least one prospect of yours who also sees you as a prospect.
Good luck with everything. Don't dread the process. | |
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| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/19/2009 3:54:02 PM | So maybe you should start hitting on ugly women they are always so much more grateful when you do. | |
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| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/19/2009 5:29:21 PM |
I find it frustrating to have a woman treat me like I have to prove that I'm worthy of her while she doesn't even think about whether or not she has to be worthy of me.
Ah, therein is the rub: YOU care that you have to prove yourself--in fact, you resent it. She doesn't care if she has to prove herself worthy because she doesn't have to. You can resent it all you like, but it won't change anything.
All I'm saying is that I want there to be mutual respect and consideration.
If that's what you want, then insist on it? Go up to the next beautiful women you see and tell her the same thing you just wrote in this forum.
I know that, in a society in which beauty is being glorified in all forms of entertainment and marketing, it's virtually impossible to find a beautiful woman who values her intellectual more than her physical image, but I'm just venting here.
I find it frustrating that you think beautiful women should value you just you think that they should. I also find it interesting that you are so intent on a beautiful woman. If you really cared about intellectuality, you wouldn't insist on a woman who is gorgeous and smart.
Why SHOULD she value her intellectual abilities more than her looks? You don't; you put a VERY high value on looks, and you sound not only sound shallow, but egotistical.
So maybe you should start hitting on ugly women they are always so much more grateful when you do.
That's my sentiment, as well. | |
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| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/19/2009 6:27:20 PM | I think I get what you're saying. It's the whole 20 questions thing.
I always try to get those kind of questions well out of the way before I actually meet someone. All I want to do when I meet someone is see if we actually connect in person. If it was a job interview style meeting, I'd just bail.
There is a great clip on Jerry Time that depicts exactly what you are talking about. I won't post the link because I don't thing that is allowed here.
Just be totally honest with her when you talk to her by email a few times before you meet her in person. That way you're past the "20 questions" and you can do something enjoyable that will help you connect with her on a non verbal level. It may sound a little corny, but try something like mini putt, or take her to a basketball game. Whatever.
On the topic of beauty, it is all in the eye of the beholder. I don't think you should date a woman YOU don't think is beautiful, but keep in mind beauty goes beyond a pretty face. I have dated some beautiful looking women were were viperous on the inside.
Hope that helps. | |
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| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/19/2009 10:24:26 PM | NeVerdun17 - I agree with most on here and I'm not going to be rude and tell
you off but you do need a lesson of what real beauty is. See beauty is in the eyes
of the beholder and you can not just look at an outside shell of someone without
looking at the inter part of a woman.
I'm saying not just a hot body or a pretty face but her real beauty from within!!!
Her heart , her smile the eyes and depth of the woman's soul the body action's
her personality hon to me your looking for a model or barbie maybe , even Venus
a godness.
Well guess what sweetie your missing the whole package of woman
date her for herself not just beauty and looks alone. I agree with the person above me
this is how I feel about beauty you can be beautiful and have one heck of an ugly inside beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
Now here is something I read touch a woman's mind win her heart you'll then see
the true beauty that that lies within . Once you open your mind and eyes to this I see no problems with you dating and finding the right woman.
Word if you continue going about things as you are you are missing out on some lovely women that have hidden talents and sharp minds can be more to you than just someone to look at and worship that is what an idol is not a woman come on give all the beautiful ladies a fair shot aim for there heart where the real beauty is. Good luck and I hope this helps and that you will not still find women at odds with you;) See the forest before the trees - Brenny
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| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/19/2009 11:10:23 PM | | Well, don't let it get to you. After experiencing the week of the flakes topped off by the weekend of the uber flakes, I almost blew it by telling someone I met today to forget it because I was tired of dealing with people who don't follow through or have technixal malfunctions or whatever. Fortunately, she was sympathetic. So, don't let the flakes get to you. | |
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| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/20/2009 6:32:10 AM | Wow, so Op, if I understand what you are saying here, is that you should not have to entice a woman that you are interested in, she should just automatically fall at your feet? Exactly what other ways do you use to have a woman become intrigued enough to want to get to know you? Seriously, do you think your presence is enough? Because if that is the case, your argument is moot because you are no different than these "beautiful" women you are whining about.
I find this mindset incredibly confusing. YOU are the one who has approached her, not the other way around. YOU are the one that feels interest so it is only common sense that you would expect to garner her interest, not the other way around. Is this generation SO totally self absorbed that they think their mere presence is all it takes??? | |
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| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/20/2009 10:20:34 AM | I find this mindset incredibly confusing. YOU are the one who has approached her, not the other way around. YOU are the one that feels interest so it is only common sense that you would expect to garner her interest, not the other way around. Is this generation SO totally self absorbed that they think their mere presence is all it takes???
Actually, that mindset is not all that confusing. If I restricted myself to profiles which were written to draw interest, I would have exhausted those long ago. In order to write someone and say anything but ``Hi,'' I have to read between the lines a lot and hope I can find something that isn't just a cliche so she remembers writing it because it really was something personal. No one who reads my profile is at a loss for something to say and women who contact me have no difficulty writing something. So, I don't know why women who write nothing in their profiles which is useful, expect guys to write more than ``Hi wanna fvck,'' to get a reply. If a woman expects more than her mere presence to be the inspiration for a message, she should provide another source of inspiration. | |
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| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/20/2009 10:35:27 AM | | ^^^^^^^^^^^^BUT if I read the Op right, he is discussing how he is frustrated that women HE approaches dont seem to immediately "appreciate" who he is, and that he gets frustrated that he actually has to present something to attract their interest ie; intelligent conversation. If a person doesnt want to strike up a conversation with a stranger that doesnt make them at odds, it makes them disinterested in what the other individual is proposing, and the last time I looked people are still allowed to decide who they want to interact with. What YOU are describing is a specific venue where both individuals are in theory looking for the same end goal and that is not what the OP is talking about. To use your example the OP is the person with nothing written on his profile and is getting upset with his results...But I guess it is easier to say that attractive women are shallow, nasty bitches, with a sense of entitlement... | |
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| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/20/2009 10:53:48 AM | The one who approaches tends to be the one who ends up having to justify why they did...it happens to be men more than women, but men don't have to do most of the approaching, they choose to.
Yeah, I said that. If you don't care either way if you get to know someone and it turns into something then this dynamic doesn't apply. It's that you do. If you didn't want you, you wouldn't - and the excuse that you'd be single forever is a weak argument. If you can't sacrifice to make changes then things will remain how they've always been.
For those who struggle to write women with empty profiles - what's the point? I skip profiles that give me no information - if you'll try and scrape something out of a blank profile so that you can write to someone, well no wonder few women bother to fill it with anything - they don't need to.
Men can change this dynamic, but first they've got to work together instead of compete. I won't hold my breath. | |
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| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/20/2009 1:39:21 PM | So, you are only approaching beautiful women. You seem to be upset that they are generally aware that they are beautiful, that you think they are beautiful, and that they use this as leverage to gauge your real interest.
Fact is, you do have to impress her. She already did her part by impressing you with her beauty (or you wouldn't have approached her, let's face it). Nothing wrong with that, it's just the natural mating dance. Men hold beauty in esteem, therefore, that is the most impressive thing. Now, you didn't check to see if she was smart, kind, generous, lucky or anything else before approaching, did ya? See? You went with what was most important to you and she gave it to you. Beauty is nice like that because it only requires presence.
It's probably not the only thing you want- it so rarely is with anyone. But why are you complaining when women who have the most important trait to you, don't necessarily have the secondary characteristics you'd like? It's like getting upset because a blond you like doesn't have blue eyes. People are who they are. You can choose to accept, negotiate, or walk away.
You're going to have to give women a reason to want to date you. You're a nice enough looking guy from what I can see, but since attractiveness isn't the #1 most important thing to women, you've got to bring something else to the table, and it's something she can't see from the outside...hence, the forced conversation and intangible 'need to prove yourself' flavor on your dates.
Note: Beautiful women get hit on A LOT less than most men assume. Mostly, they just get more smiles. Only the naturally charismatic tend to have the guts to go for them, hence the 'why does that incredibly hot chick always end up with jerks?' complaint.
What gorgeous women want: Someone who likes them, eyeballs to entrails, and who treats them well (and someone they desire to kiss).
Then again, could be that ALL of the really hot women you've been approaching are just mean, mean ladies who aren't worth your time and set out only to make you feel insecure.
But probably not. The lady above me was right. Odds are, they smell a rat. Meaning, they know you're only after them because you value their impending possible nakedness, and want you to give them a reason to ever let you have them above anyone else (maybe someone else who might actually care about who they are and love them?).
I'm adapting a commonly used phrase for this: Don't hate the player, hate the game. Dating is dating. If you don't want a woman who knows the value of her beauty, don't go after beautiful women.
Course, you could get lucky, so who am I do advise? | |
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| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/20/2009 1:46:29 PM | OP, if you find an area of life in which your results are unsatisfactory, you have a choice:
1. You can blame others, which will do nothing to change your results, but may give you a false sense of "justification".
2. Or you can change things that are yours to change, so as to be more interesting or attractive, or less focused on what you want, and more focused on what women are saying. Potentially, that may yield more satisfactory results.
either way, women aren't going to change, cuz you want them to. So, you either have to cast a wider net, modify your preferences, improve what you have to offer, or "give up", cuz "whining" about women is pointless. | |
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| Young Women and Men at odds
Posted: 4/20/2009 11:37:10 PM | ^^^^
OP, you've tried # 1 with this thread.
So let's explore #2.
Basicly you approach/see women as generic.
I'm not bashing you.
It's a guy thing.
And a mistake we all make.
To constantly get the same frustration means you're trying too hard.
and with the wrong women.
Step back abit.
If a girl gets your attention only cus she's cute and that's all you go on...
well Mr Generic you are.
Not that guys aren't attracted to attractive women.
But look close and see her issues.
Be aware of you're own as well.
If you're finding out on the fly.....
You're trying to hard and with the wrong women.
LOL
See how this works?
so just cool your jets and mix it up with women without the need to score or impress em.
Just connect.
talk abit.
about small stuff.
life maybe.
dreams, aspirations.
The time you tripped on some gum.
Or childhood stuff.
Yes, I know maybe the girl doesn't want to hear that.
If not...
Take a pass she's not for you.
We connect with some, not with others.
If we try to connect with all we probably won't with any.
Welcome to the generic zone.
Instead try to focus on those you may be good for.
And good for you.
If you see all women as the same.
You'll miss those unique ones right for you.
And always chase your tail in shallow circles.
Good Luck. | |
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