|
|
|
|
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 4/20/2009 12:40:08 PM | The research comes from US planetary scientists, who suggest the Red Planet warmed by about 0.65C from the 1970s to the 1990s, similar to Earth's 0.6C average temperature rise during the 20th Century.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21506814-2,00.html
Much more info to be found by googling, but here's one article. I believe the prevailing common-sense theory now is that the sun itself is actually burning warmer.
How do "man-made global warming" people explain this? Wether the sun is or isn't burning warmer, if man is accelerating global temperatures on Earth shouldn't the increase on Earth be greater than on Mars? | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 4/20/2009 1:41:20 PM | you are comparing apples with grapes,....
two very different celestial bodies,....
different in too many ways but interestingly enough it does have a very thin atmosphere,...composed of about 95% carbon dioxide,....so that might have something to doo with it,....
I say might because no one knows for sure,...not even the PHD's in the field,...
They can make an educated guess (probably better than you or I) but know!!!,...for certain!!!,...don't think so,....
mars does have normaly changes in temperature similar to us it has season's and it does also rotate on it's axes,....but there is no vegitation to add to the climactic changes as we have,...etc,...etc,...etc,....(do I really have to list all the differences?)
BTW the sun does have changes in temperature fluctuations and flares, as well as it's own rotation in our galaxy,....
The Sun orbits the center of the Milky Way galaxy at a distance of approximately 24,000 to 26,000 light years from the galactic center, moving generally in the direction of Cygnus and completing one revolution in about 225–250 million years (one Galactic year) that cycle will find the sun closest to the galactic centre, in the year 2012,...co incidentially the year many doomsday predictions end,...as do many ancient calenders's,...(Myan, Hodo, Egyptian's etc)
This too has a definitive effect on us and other celestial bodies,.....
But that is not to negate our own doings,...there is no rule that 2 independant things can adversely affect the planet at the same time,....heck might even be three or more,....this doesn't let us off the hook just makes the problem worse,....
but incidentially this is one of those if your friend jumped off the bridge thing,...your mom used on you as a kid,...
who cares what happens on mars or if pluto isn't a planet,...
how in any way does that change what this planet,...the one we actually live on is going through,....and our continued survival on it,.....that's really all that I care about today,... | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 4/20/2009 1:48:20 PM | So you're saying that this revelation has no bearing whatsoever on the study of "global warming?"
I'm honestly flabbergasted.
who cares what happens on mars or if pluto isn't a planet,...
I do because it reveals the possibility that global warming on this planet could be caused by a hotter sun cycle and not by man producing too much carbon.
Let me ask you this: If we send probes to other planets and it turns out that they, too are warming at the same rate as Earth and Mars would you still consider it irrelevant to the topic of global warming? | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 4/20/2009 1:57:57 PM | does it offer a solution????
I personally would consider this information in context,....
something I and I suspect you as well are not quallified to do,....
Now once the information is put into context,...I would certainly look at it,...with interest even but we here on this planet have a finite amount of money to spend on these things and if it were up to me I would first spend to clean up this home,...and then check out the neighbourhood,....
It'll still be there tomorrow you know,.....but will we?
if we continue to twiddle our thumbs complacently, figuring there's nothing to be done and we did nothing wrong so why change,.....well!!
at this point tomorrow is promissed to none of us living here,..... | |
|
| |
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 4/20/2009 5:15:25 PM | "Dr Fenton's group found that annual variation in the solar radiation reflected from the surface of Mars - its "albedo" - contributed to the warming by causing more blowing dust.
Over the past 30 years the dust swept clean large swaths of the planet's surface, reducing reflected radiation. "-from the link in msg#1
-The factors governing albedo on earth are not the same as on mars. Here we have oceans, forest cover, aerosols in our atmosphere.....
On mars, the suggested mechanism for the changes is a dust cloud driven positive feedback loop.
"The increase in global dust lifting by both wind stress and dust devils may affect the mechanisms that trigger large dust storm initiation, a poorly understood phenomenon, unique to Mars"
-Unique to mars. If this could be correlated with a an increase in solar radiation or some other outside cause, then I would be inclined to say that it may give us some insight into our own climate. The global warming opponents touting this study as meaningful don't give additional information to support their position, but simply expect 'common sense thinking' to speak for itself. But does 'common sense' really dictate that a somewhat similar temperature change in two completely different climate systems, without a change in common outside stimuli, can be attributed to anything but coincidence?
Personally, I would like more research into this phenomenon. It may expose some outside stimuli that we aren't currently aware of or don't understand well enough. For the time being, I would be suspect of anyone that tries to infer parallel's with our own situation but doesn't actually account for the VAST differences in how our climate's function. | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 4/27/2009 3:38:04 AM | From the article:
Over the past 30 years the dust swept clean large swaths of the planet's surface, reducing reflected radiation. By this, we can see that if we artificially sweep clean large swathes of the Earth's surface, we too will reduce reflected radiation, increasing radiation and increasing temperatures as a result.
In effect, this is describing another cause of global warming, that by clearing large areas of forest to be farmland, the solar energy that would normally be reflected or absorbed by the forest, now has nowhere to go but to heat up the atmosphere, and that makes the world hotter all the time. Similar effects might be observed in farmland that becomes over-farmed so much that it becomes desert.
The result was a "positive feedback loop" between dust, wind, albedo and temperature. If such a feedback loop exists, then potentially, by us artificially clearing large swathes of land over the Earth's surface, we increase the amount of solar radiation, which then causes more blowing dust to sweep even more land. Potentially, this could be an even more powerful cause of global warming.
What is vital to realise, is that with such feedback loops, there is a "tipping point", a point at which below it, we can help the loop, but as soon as we stop our actions, so does the loop. In other words, below the tipping point, we are in control of the loop. But above the tipping point, the loop becomes self-sustaining. At that point, even if we did nothing at all, the loop could make the Earth hotter and hotter, and to stop it, becomes like trying to stop a hurricane. So it is vital for us to find out if this feedback loop could occur on Earth, and what it's "tipping point" is, meaning how much land needs to be clear for the loop to become self-sustaining, and how far are we away from that point.
It might be that we need to stop people clearing land altogether, just to stop this feedback loop.
| |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 4/27/2009 5:50:56 AM |
The research comes from US planetary scientists, who suggest the Red Planet warmed by about 0.65C from the 1970s to the 1990s, similar to Earth's 0.6C average temperature rise during the 20th Century.
I noted this came from a "news" site which alway shas to be taken with grains of salt.
This is the kind of pseudo science that misleads people in order to make things more or less sensational. Who the heck are these planetary "scientists"? They aren't using very scientific comparisons.
If you examine the sentence carefully, they SUGGEST (no definite proof?) that there was a rise in Mars' temperature of 0.65C over a 20-year period from the 70's to 90's, yet they are comparing this to the average temperature rise of the earth over the entire 20th century.
How is that valid science? Twenty versus a hundred years...and why specifically the 70's through 90's? Is that the only segment that fits their argument? They may as well say, "Haola ahhv lknwa, jka a acj afcevn." - It makes about as much sense.
These numbers will only be truly meaningful if you look at any rise in Earth temperature over the same 20 year period as the Mars temps. And likewise, you would also have to compare Mars temperatures during the entire 20th century, to see if there is any correlation (or lack thereof) in the same period as earth.
The term for that method is simply "cherry picking"...choosing certain segments of results and comparing them to unlike results to try to prove a meaningful point. I notice a whole lot of this going on with the global warming/anti-global warming folks.
What amazes me is how so many people figure they have zero effect on their surroundings. If this was true, then one could lock themselves into a hermetically sealed environment and they should be able to emerge 30 days later none the less for wear - except they won't. Their own bodily emissions would kill them. That's without burning fuel, driving a car, polluting the water, VOCs, and all the rest of it. I'm not saying I'm not responsible for my own share, but all these folks seem to live some immaculate neutral fantasy existence! | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 5/11/2009 12:00:24 AM | | wait a minute. if the earth ain't gettin' warmer cause of all the stuff i'm doing, why are we buildin' all these windmills and solar panels?? and why do i need a 40 mpg car? | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 5/11/2009 2:05:10 AM |
How do "man-made global warming" people explain this? Wether the sun is or isn't burning warmer, if man is accelerating global temperatures on Earth shouldn't the increase on Earth be greater than on Mars?
You do know that the suns output is measurable right? This article actually has the people in the study saying it doesn't refute Global warming. I notice you didn't quote that segment.
Anyway, the great thing about global warming skeptics (who never seem to have a degree in climatology) oddly enough is that I can just copy and paste the old refutation.
You're argument by the way is not that popular these days. Mostly because it's so thoroughly being debunked, ranking 16th with only 2.4% of the denialist argument share.
What the science says...
Martian climate is primarily driven by dust and albedo and there is little empirical evidence that Mars is showing long term warming.
The primary empirical evidence for long term, global warming on Mars comes from Fenton 2007. Fenton compared a composite snapshot of Mars from 1977 taken by the Voyager spacecraft to a 1999 image compiled by the Mars Global Surveyor (referencing work from Geissler 2005). The 1977 snapshot showed a brighter planet. In 1999, the planet had a lower albedo, with prominent darker regions in the southern mid and high latitudes. Using the albedo changes in a general circulation model, Fenton calculated a 22 year global warming trend of 0.65°C.
The empirical evidence isn't conclusive on whether global warming is happening on Mars. However, to answer the question on whether the sun is causing Earth's global warming, there is plentiful data on solar activity and Earth's climate. Many papers have examined this data, concluding the correlation between sun and climate ended in the 70's when the modern global warming trend began.
So the argument that Martian warming disproves anthropogenic global warming fails on two points - there is little empirical evidence that Mars is warming and Mars' climate is primarily driven by dust and albedo, not solar variations.
That was easy! | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 5/11/2009 2:35:36 PM |
How do "man-made global warming" people explain this? Wether the sun is or isn't burning warmer, if man is accelerating global temperatures on Earth shouldn't the increase on Earth be greater than on Mars?
SHHHH, geez what are you trying to do expose hypocrisy?
Anyway, the great thing about global warming skeptics (who never seem to have a degree in climatology) oddly enough is that I can just copy and paste the old refutation.
Like you do right?
The bottom line on the Global Warming Hoax is simply about MONEY.
Al Gore the Global Warming Guru of the leftists stands to become the Worlds first green billionaire. Thats right billionaire.
While he lobbies Congress(funny how a left wing lobbiest is acceptable) laws are being written which enhance his personal wealth and none of these laws will make any difference because the earth goes in ond out of these warming and cooling cycles.
I suggest everyone read the Michael Crichton novel "State of Fear". | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 5/12/2009 12:04:31 AM |
The bottom line on the Global Warming Hoax is simply about MONEY.
Yes, the motivations of all those climatologists that went to university rather than working on oil pipelines was massive wealth.
Al Gore the Global Warming Guru of the leftists stands to become the Worlds first green billionaire. Thats right billionaire.
Who's talking about Al Gore? You do realize that the global scientific community isn't run by one ex politician out of the USA right?
I suggest everyone read the Michael Crichton novel "State of Fear".
Yes, get your perception of the world based on poorly written science fiction. | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 5/12/2009 11:57:26 AM | More and more Americans are coming to conclude, after the record cold temperatures in many cities this winter, that global warning is a crock – that there is no conclusive proof it is happening, no conclusive proof man is the cause, no conclusive proof it would be a calamity for us or the polar bears.
But cap and trade would mean a huge hike in the cost of energy for all Americans, the shutdown of fuel-efficient U.S. factories, and their replacement by dirtier and less fuel-efficient Chinese plants.
And we do know the agenda here is a vast transfer of wealth and power from U.S. citizens to government bureaucrats, and from the U.S. government to global bureaucrats who will run the oversight and enforcement machinery set up by the Kyoto II conclave in Copenhagen.
Yes, the motivations of all those climatologists that went to university rather than working on oil pipelines was massive wealth.
You say that as if you've never heard of Govt. grants and or subsidies, in other words if you don't produce the results the people paying to produce results for, well they may just quit paying you.
 | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 5/12/2009 2:18:44 PM | You would never no the Globe was warming by the weather here in Edmonton.
You say that as if you've never heard of Govt. grants and or subsidies, in other words if you don't produce the results the people paying to produce results for, well they may just quit paying you.
You are gonna stir up a hornets nest with that kind of truth.
I think we should send Al Gore to Mars to investigate the situation and to produce a lie riddled documentary on the Martian situation. 2 years seems like enough time to spend there.
Then 2 years on Pluto. | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 5/13/2009 12:12:50 AM | More and more Americans are coming to conclude, after the record cold temperatures in many cities this winter, that global warning is a crock
That's because American's don't understand the difference between weather and climate.
You say that as if you've never heard of Govt. grants and or subsidies, in other words if you don't produce the results the people paying to produce results for, well they may just quit paying you.
Uh huh, because the way to get ahead in the scientific field is to cook the books. You do realize that relative values of government grants vs cash from the private sector right?
I mean seriously, you think thats why scientists say tobacco is bad for you too? Because they did it for the grants? How about geneticists and evolution? Is it a conspiracy of evil scientists trying to get their grants?
And we do know the agenda here is a vast transfer of wealth
Republican talking point quotations for the win. We all know where you do your reading. | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 5/13/2009 9:15:27 AM |
Republican talking point quotations for the win. We all know where you do your reading.
Yes and there are no leftist talking points.
While the lemings run for the ledges more inormation like this comes out.
Why, in 2008, did Toronto, the Midwest United States, India, China, the United Kingdom and several areas of Europe all break summer rainfall records? Why was South Africa converted into a 'winter wonderland' this past September? Why did Alaska record its coldest summer this year -- cold enough for ice packs and glaciers to grow for the first time in measured history? Why has sea ice achieved record levels in recent months? Lastly, why did a rare October snow fall on London, on the 29th, as British Parliament debated -- appropriately enough -- a climate bill?
Stick around I am sure we wil be entering into another cooling period soon anyways.
In 1923 a Chicago Tribune headline proclaimed: 'Scientist says arctic ice will wipe out Canada.' By 1952, the New York Times declared 'Melting glaciers are the trump card of global warming.' In 1974, Time Magazine ran a feature article predicting 'Another Ice Age,' echoed in a Newsweek article the following year. Clearly, the recent history of climate prediction inspires little confidence.
Gee I wonder why there are so many skeptics? | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 5/14/2009 12:01:18 AM |
Yes, the motivations of all those climatologists that went to university rather than working on oil pipelines was massive wealth.
I came home a few months ago and I caught the esteemed Canadian "scientist" David Suzuki trying to wheel my old refrigerator out the door. He told me that he "would replace it with a newer more energy efficient one. You will be able to afford more beer."
I told him "Go to hell."
He'd caught my friend 5 years ago. Instead of spending $50 and a few hours work rebuilding his thirty year old wash machine, my friend got a brand new energy efficient model.... very shiny.... and lots of buttons and lights. The drum of the machine come unglued and completely exited through the front just a couple of months ago.
I wonder if the energy savings he got for that 5 year period will pay for his new washer? Or how much of an enviromental impact the factory building those wash machines has?
There is money to be made by people claiming to be enviromentally friendly. Just ask General Electric. This would also explain my perception of how NBC always seems to lean to the left. | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 5/14/2009 3:47:27 PM |
You would never no the Globe was warming by the weather here in Edmonton.
Aside from the fact the polar caps are melting and weather is being disrupted globally due to the changes? Yeah, if you ignore those things, then one could conclude nothing is happening with the weather.
I wonder how the temperatures over the mid-oceans have changed. I wonder how the temperatures five miles deep in the oceans have changed? Those are the reservoirs of the earth's surface temperatures and what's going on down there is what will truly say if there's a net warming or a net cooling. I've heard no one discuss any of that.
The deep ocean currents globally act as an unseen insulator - helping to maintain the status quo between the frigid and the arid, and providing for most the temperate zones that are home to most of the Earth's population.
Once the deep ocean circulation systems are disrupted, you will see much whackier weather at the surface - it will rain where rain isn't normal and be dry - too dry - when it should be wet. Other areas that are already drought prone may become uninhabitable. Ocean driven circulation patterns will be chaotic and the change between seasons will be thrown off. Ice reservoirs will beging melting at unprecedented rates. Some areas will be hotter than normal, others (like coastal Europe) will become cooler. Violent weather or longer, more sustained periods of it could become much more frequent. It's understandable (somewhat) that because many of these events involve rain falling, some people will associate it with cooling rather than warming.
If you haven't seen/heard of any of the above, then sure you could procalim it all a hoax. But if you've seen the above happening over the past few years, the argument that everything is okay seems foolish. | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 5/15/2009 5:34:52 AM |
He'd caught my friend 5 years ago. Instead of spending $50 and a few hours work rebuilding his thirty year old wash machine, my friend got a brand new energy efficient model.... very shiny.... and lots of buttons and lights. The drum of the machine come unglued and completely exited through the front just a couple of months ago.
I wonder if the energy savings he got for that 5 year period will pay for his new washer? Or how much of an enviromental impact the factory building those wash machines has?
Wow your annecdote about a new washing machine completely over rides peer review scientific research. | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 5/15/2009 10:41:37 AM |
Aside from the fact the polar caps are melting and weather is being disrupted globally due to the changes? Yeah, if you ignore those things, then one could conclude nothing is happening with the weather.
Global warming explorers in Arctic get nasty shock: polar ice caps blooming freezing.
They set out to the high arctic 73 days ago full of high hopes. They were going to tramp all the way to the North Pole. (But were frustrated by the unseasonal cold.) They were going to march 1000 km (they managed 434). Above all, they were going to raise awareness of "climate change" by drilling lots of holes in the polar ice cap so as toshow how worryingly thin it is, and in how imminent danger of doom. (But their equipment broke in the freezing temperatures and anyway, as Christopher Booker reported the other day, there are US Army buoys which already do this job perfectly well and have found that since last March the ice has thickened by "at least half a metre").
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/james_delingpole/blog/2009/05/15/global_warming_explorers_in_arctic_get_nasty_shock_polar_ice_caps_blooming_freezing
Damn, the ice caps are actually growing, Well I gues it’s good news for polar bears and penguins, NEXT …
Once the deep ocean circulation systems are disrupted, you will see much whackier weather at the surface
Cold Water Ocean Circulation Doesn't Work As Expected
"Everybody always thought this deep flow operated like a conveyor belt, but what we are saying is that concept doesn't hold anymore," said Duke oceanographer Susan Lozier. "So it's going to be more difficult to measure these climate change signals in the deep ocean."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090513130942.htm
Gee, I guess we need a new study to determine how it really works as we seem to have been wrong for the last few years ….. 50 yrs or so it seems.
Oh and this just in, it seems the term GLOBAL WARMING is being laughed at due to the cold weather records set this last year, so it’s time to change the name.
WASHINGTON — The problem with global warming, some environmentalists believe, is “global warming.”
The term turns people off, fostering images of shaggy-haired liberals, economic sacrifice and complex scientific disputes, according to extensive polling and focus group sessions conducted by ecoAmerica, a nonprofit environmental marketing and messaging firm in Washington.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/02/us/politics/02enviro.html?_r=3
Isn’t anybody just a wee bit suspicious when they have to change the term for “MARKETING” purposes ?
Come on folks, this is too easy, do a little research and don’t just read and rely on the left wing talking points.
 | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 5/15/2009 11:21:53 AM | Melting ice could cause gravity shift
The melting of one of the world's largest ice sheets would alter the Earth's field of gravity and even its rotation in space so much that it would cause sea levels along some coasts to rise faster than the global average, scientists said yesterday.
The more the facts counter the claims of the cult, the more hysterical their fear-mongering becomes.
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/melting-ice-could-cause-gravity-shift-1685201.html | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 5/15/2009 11:33:23 AM |
If you haven't seen/heard of any of the above, then sure you could procalim it all a hoax. But if you've seen the above happening over the past few years, the argument that everything is okay seems foolish.
In 1923 a Chicago Tribune headline proclaimed: 'Scientist says arctic ice will wipe out Canada.' By 1952, the New York Times declared 'Melting glaciers are the trump card of global warming.' In 1974, Time Magazine ran a feature article predicting 'Another Ice Age,' echoed in a Newsweek article the following year. Clearly, the recent history of climate prediction inspires little confidence.
Been there, done that, seen it all before. | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 5/15/2009 5:45:52 PM |
Wow your annecdote about a new washing machine completely over rides peer review scientific research.
You never like my stories Charles.
Let us say that this time, as opposed to every other time peer reviewed scientists have made predictions about earth's climate changes, I have a tendency to believe them (and in reality I've always thought pollution is a bad thing.)
Before I could really get on board with the whole global warming bandwagon, I'd expect that Canada's popularly appointed watchdog and spokesperson for the enviroment David Suzuki would suggest something other than the kneejerk solutions he mostly seems to come up with, such as:
-everybody in the world should get a new fridge
-let us mow down them rainforests so we can plant ethanol producing soybean crops
-make everyone drive electric cars, never mind that the technology isn't here yet, or that north america already has had electricity shortages in the last few years.
I would suspect that the most knowledgeable and skilled scientists are hard at work designing electric cars (because they would be smart enough to know where the money's at), or other productive work.... these type of fellows would have little time to write peer reviewed papers or to appear on TV. | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 5/29/2009 9:50:44 AM | Someone please send some of that global warming my way. It was only 41 degrees here a few days ago. Whew! Heat wave | |
|
| Mars warming at same rate as Earth
Posted: 5/31/2009 1:00:54 PM |
Been there, done that, seen it all before.
Well then, I suggest you don't get your climatology info and "predictions" solely from mainstream media outlets. They depend upon controversy, conflict, fads, flashy headlines, and other sorts of sensationalism to produce profits. With the internet and tuned mental filters, there is really no reason for the truly curious to be ignorant on a matter of such importance. | |
|
|
|
Home
login 
