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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/8/2009 2:26:00 PM | I choose the California forums for this, because after discussing many things here, I have come to understand how some here think. I didn’t want to put this in some other area like Off Topic because I was afraid some of you here would not see it their.
Here’s the thing, I have been doing a lot of research on history, have done a lot on genealogy and have read up on Secret Societies. The Da Vinci Code raised some very interesting ideas, and with this new movie coming out on Dan Browns other book “Angels & Demons” concerning the Illuminati, I’m curious how many of you have paid attention to this?
I believe there are a lot of very spiritual people, even Christians, who have come to recognize there are a lot of things to learn, outside the Bible and walls of a strict religion. And I’m not saying the Bible or Religion is bad, just more and more people thinking on their own and asking questions. I believe a lot of people fall between the strict “Dogma” following Religion and the non believer. But people want to still put them in that box or the other. I believe our society as most societies change over time, has come to a point where something big is about to happen.
We have some great discussions and debates about our politics and civil rights issues here in the US and we discuss a lot about the Fore Fathers. A lot were Free Masons, who have been infiltrated by the Illuminati. The so called New World Order is alive and well... Or is it? (Example: Benjamin Franklin was a Mason... this doesn’t necessarily mean he was a member of the Illuminati, which started in 1776 by a Bavarian professor of law, Adam Weishaupt who infiltrated the Freemason Lodges in 1777 in France. It was in 1776 when Franklin first travelled to France.)
Coming up on 12-21-2012 there are all sorts of discussion on what may or may not happen. Some believe that because the Mayan calendar ends, so does the world... or at least transforms us into something new. And, some believe that because as we get closer to this date, the Earth, Sun, Milky Way alignment may cause something? Perhaps polar magnetic changes? Some believe that what happens around this date, is determined by how we as the humans on this earth are acting, that our actions can send us into a bad scary life, or one that will be free of war and bad putting us into a world of peace. It’s an interesting concept. But, is it just silly talk?
So, my questions are... How many of you believe their can be something to Secret Societies. Do you care about History?... And better yet your own history (genealogy) ? For example... Is it possible that Mary Magdalene could have continued a blood line of Christ? Can Christianity and say... Science, Astrology & Numerology coexist?
Or, do you just not care, or think it’s all hog wash and conspiracy theories? | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/8/2009 4:25:45 PM | I am pretty interested in Masonic History and the Knights Templar history as well.
However, I think think the rest of it is purely speculative.
In particular the Mayan calendar date, polar magnetic change hysteria. As a scientist, I just don't think there is sufficient evidence for anything of that nature happening. It would have been observed before. Added to that, the Mayan Doomsday Prophecy is based on a calendar which astronomers believe hasn’t been designed to calculate dates beyond 2012. I put that right over with the Large Hadron Collider causing mini black holes theory. If you have a good working idea of scientific method, and a solid basic education in science, it's pretty easy to see why this is silly. | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/8/2009 4:31:42 PM | First off, I haven't read either of the books. Not for lack of interest, I just haven't gotten around to it.
As for secret societies, I think it would be absurd to think they didn't exist. Humans like secrets and feeling superior.
As for my history and geneology, it has been followed back into the 13th and 14 centuries depending on which side you go back. I have to wonder how true any of that is though. Who in the 13th century is going to admit the baby belongs to the neighbor, or the army that just went through? Or even that they were "with child" long before the wedding. So how could one know about Mary Magdelene and Christ?
Can religion, science, astrology etc. coexist? I believe that they can, because we don't completely know any of them. I think when we "know" everything, they will all fit.
Just my opinion. | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/8/2009 4:52:44 PM | | I've read both books, enjoyed them for what they were, works of fiction. I've also read a two fictional books about the Templer Knights which I also enjoyed. I agree with Tiger above, as long as their are humans, there will be secret agendas and societys and it's quite interesting to speculate on them. Where I think some people go wrong is to read or hear about these books and think they are fact instead of what they are, a heck of a good read. | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/8/2009 5:32:30 PM | JD: I have a lot of scatter thoughts on your interesting original post....
First, some appropriate background music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EegRh8Z4H-o
Now...scattered thoughts in no particular order:
I think there is a lot of importance to the ties of the ForeFathers and Free Masonry. .........One interesting tidbit is that on the night of the Boston Tea Party, the Boston Masons held a stated meeting that night that mysteriously was adjourned abruptly very early in the evening...hmmmm. They were there no doubt, and they carried with them a civic view and service record of unparalelled great proportions back then and for centuries before. I'd like to offer as a kernel of thought along the lines of The Framers of the Constitution and many signatores of other major founding documents being Free Masons, and that would be the sentance: "We find these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal.........." While although each of these men knew they had a special burden in society as stewards of civic standards which they promulgated through their actions on decisions made in their closed meetings in their lodges (btw: it's really hard to keep a building a secret) for a better society as was their vision, I really don't think that they, other than economically or educationally, saw themselves as 'superior beings' to the average Tom of the day in the eyes of God. {and yes, in order to be a Free Mason, one must attest for membership that they believe in a Supreme Being (although of which flavor can be left open for debate)}.
Myan Calendar ending in 2012: My personal opinion? I think that's just where they ran out of room on the papyrus to write any more. And besides, when I plan my own calendar, how many generations should I go into the future for my kids and their kids and so on? Sooner or later, let someone else be smart enough to figure out more of the continuation, I have enough problems just with my own fiscal year.
I often wonder if Mary indeed had had Jesus' children, what would they have been like, or what would he have been like as a dad to them? Would he have made them polish their sandals every Sunday night? When the offspring needed money to take out a Friday night date, would he have given Roman tokens to them or just said, "don't worry, it'll all be there when you need what you need, now put these fish and loaves in your pockets....", Would he have given wine to his underage children and their friends? All kinds of complications. I have enough of a hard time understanding just what is written of him as it is now. So I need to please ask, when I'm really ready to consider more than what we already have written in the standard cannon about him, can I get back to you then? Promise it'll just be not more than a few decades! lol.
The bible: Although some might argue that we should take everything before Abram/Abraham as alegory (others would argue the other side of this coin...either way) from Abram to Jesus, really the bible, even if you don't regard it as The Word of God, it still stands up as a pretty good history book. Most events recorded in it are supported by archeological finds of the past couple hundred years and the integrety of its translations are pretty solid (as best exemplified by the findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls as one example). So if not even The Word of God, or even Inspired Man's Recording of Word of God, there's enough in it that history buffs that are even non-believers might want to crack one open some day (for those, I'd recommend a Chronologically Arranged Version rather than a "book arranged version"). Finally, does the bible say that some men are superior to others? That would be point of view. Even David, who was at one time the most powerful and imbued man on earth, followed by Solomon, was very imperfect (adulterer, murderer, and other "ers"). But God was never the less able to use him for His better good too.
I don't think we really need to get caught up too much in the "annointedness" side of the theories. People are people. But what each of us choses to do with our time here is what makes us each more or less powerful within our individual circumstances.
And, I also think that many of the concepts can live in harmony together.....you can be a member of a secret society and be a Christian or other religion. The only things which really are not compatable would be: athiest, agnostic, mono-theistic, pantheistic, ..... But my personal experience would also be that the further one gets from relating to the one true God (ie: suppose you join a secret society and allow its traditions to become more important to you than relating directly to God as you go through your days........or even within Christian circles spending more time worshiping saints or angels rather than the King of the Heirarchy), the further we distance ourselves from divine inspiration. - Which could potentially be a huge robbery for anyone (as he/she is a pretty good guy/gal to get to know!).
Will ramble more for you later I'm sure JD! Great subject!
PS: Geniology: My mom's dad did their family back into the 13th century. But the records of it were lost during the bombing of Berlin. Dad's side is lost just one generation back from the migration from Europe of his blood lines. ........So for me, all I really know of mine is that we all just go back to Noah together, and between there and here, well that's just a big mish-mash. | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 10:13:49 AM | Barbe, yes books of fiction, but if you study History and learn more about it, the fiction is based on a lot of truths as well. There are things we may never learn, but the more things are uncovered and the more you read, the more you can understand, rather than just believe what people tell you.
And I'm not saying anything personally about anyone, just generalizing.
One example is King Arthur, another Robinhood... The stories are fiction, but about real people and real events. Not all events were real, and not all events were revealed. Robinhood for example, Robert of Loxey, was from the Yorkshire area of Briton, in Barnsdale, near Sherwood Forest and Knottinghamshire to the south, he even built a church in the forest he named Mary Magdalene. King John, John Lackland (Brother of Richard the Lionheart) is a factual person, and Robert of Loxey was around during his time. There was a Will Scarlett and a Big John, (Different names-Robert gave them these as nicknames) so the story goes. There was a Sheriff of Nottingham, but no record of a Friar Tuck? or Maid Miriam.
But he built this church and named it Mary Magdalene... Why?
The records of a party, that sailed to the south of France with Joseph of Arimathea including Lazurus, Martha & Mary (Magdalene) of Bethany were part of the group, with other followers and family of Christ, including the Apostle Philip. There was a young girl Tamar (Sarah) who travelled with Mary, They came from Egypt 3-6 years after the crucifixion (Several different accounts) There is the Black Madonna, and other stories about Mary Magdalene all over that area in France. It's historical record, but what of it is true or false. Some of the stories vary... But just like the four books (Matthew, Mark, Luke & John) the stories contradict themselves some what. It's because different people are telling different stories of things that were told to them. It might not make them accurate to the letter, but there has to be a lot of truth.
I started writing about a hypothetical about the Magi (3 wisemen) How did they figure out the Star? was it Astrology or Astronomy, did they use other techniques as well? What they might have done after Bethlehem... where did they go? What did they learn? There were stories Marco Polo wrote about this and others. But in doing the research and getting more involved in Numerology I started learning some fascinating things, and really got into genealogy. I'm fortunate in the fact that my family has been doing it for a long time, and that we come from a line that has good records. I go through the lines of Kings through the Merovingians on to Joseph of Arimathea. (Even Mary Magdalene) as accurate as these records can be? But what I did, was look at every step along the way. For example Fulk V was the father of Geoffrey V who married Matilda, daughter of King Henry I who was the son of William the Conquerer and Matilda of Flanders... well any way, Fulk V was just another name in the line of Genealogy, Then I learned he later married Melisend, daughter of King Baldwin I (First king of Jerusalem after the first crusade) He had a son Baldwin who later became King of Jerusalem. But that Fulk V payed the way for two Knights Templars who were of the original nine Templars. Fulk V is Foulgues V, count of Anjou.
What my point is, is that through tracing your roots, and studying those people individually, the best you can, you can dig up things. By the way, John Lackland is in my line. His brother Richard Lionheart is not. There is a lot in the history books about John, but there are also a lot about his brother Richard, reading all these histories, give you a better understanding of what really went on during his time.
A lot of the stories, touch each other. A lot of people may be reading about Jesus in the bible who was in Judea and travelled to Egypt. But at the same time Philo Judaeus of Alexandria lived who has a great record of his philosophies and those of the Jews. A historical account of the same time as when the stories of the New Testament occurred, basically in the same area. Same as Apollonius of Tyana who was born around 3 BC near the Cilician Gates of the Cappadocia area just north of Judea. There are so many others, this is why people can piece these things together and come up with a bigger picture of what really might have happened.
Including the things they believed and studied, Pythagorus, Zoroaster & Zeno. The Essenes, Therapeutae, Gnostic & Coptic Christians. Just to name a few.
But there is so much more to know, that do make these books of fiction not so much fiction, they take a fiction character and throw him into a fictional situation, but perhaps based on a lot of truths.
Also: On this 2012 date. It is a different story, not history, but prediction... But the date isn't only mentioned in the Mayans. Also there are other predictions of this date from people who would not have known the Mayan calendar. Nostradamus for one. Now am I saying there is something to this, is it the end of the world? NO. I'm not... can't possibly know that... But it is interesting. considering all of the things that lead up to that very same date 12 21 20012. The Mayans worshipped the the center of the Milky Way, the black whole, they believed God lived their.
Here is a link that talks a little about the happening that will occur on that date. Just food for thought.
http://www.viewzone.com/endtime.html
Hope I didn't butcher these names too bad. | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 11:04:38 AM | I am always amazed by what people will accept as being the truth. The vast majority of those who follow a religion do so because of their upbringing, and not because they researched the thousands of religions that are available to believe in and follow once they outgrew childhood and could think for themselves. Having said that, it's still the highest form of comedic irony for someone to assert that their religion reflects a set of facts--as opposed to being a belief system--when they know virtually nothing about the finer details and nuances of the countless other religions. (How many variations of Christianity have the Protestants come up with? It seems to be acceptable to concoct your own interpretations and establish yet another version as long as you proclaim it to be the real, actual, genuine One True Religion.)
But no matter what you believe, how can you credibly believe in that one thing when you know little or nothing about the countless others? It seems that people believe what they are comfortable with, and the truth is merely claimed instead of actually established.
And how many times do we have to sit through dates that come and go that are supposedly the end of the world or signal a radical new world order as "predicted" by Nostradamus, the Mayan Calendar, etc.? I would prefer the level-headed approach of looking at actual situations, such as the fact that a few hundred years of civilization cannot neutralize hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary programming that made homo sapiens one aggressive lout, but his still-primitive brethren have nukes floating around loose in still-tribal regions of anarchy like Pakistan.
__________
As to secret societies, one should fear only The Party Poodles of the PoF Califorum and the mysterious goings-on at their cabal-y type drink fests and boob-grabbing rituals. I hear they sacrificed a cabana boy last time... The coroners report said it was death by spiked margarita and spiked Louboutin. [ * shudder * ]
I’ll take my chances with the Mayan Calendar instead… | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 11:38:05 AM | JD, Interesting read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalene
seems there are many contradictory theories about who she was and when she was last heard from.........We end up having to ask if any one theory is any better than any other for any particular reason. | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 12:32:50 PM | o4
I have read that site, It says a lot. I've added a great link to learn even more about Mary at the bottom. It is all worth reading, but food for thought, the more we read and know, the more we can come up with our own idea of what we want to think.
I only want to share some of what I have learned, so people might want to think more about it and it may cause someone to do more research and come up with their own conclusions.
To me, it's a fascinating story, and like Sock... I believe we need to learn the truth for ourselves... Do I buy into everything, NO... but I'm open to it.
As far as which theory is right or wrong? We may never know, (does it really matter?) but if we keep an open mind and really study all the options... we can find something close... that works for us individually. We don't have to think all a like... and I'm not going to tell you your wrong, but don't like it when someone says I'm wrong, when they really don't know.
http://petragrail.tripod.com/mm.html | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 1:40:51 PM | I think that either construct can stand up well about whether or not Mary of Mary & Martha & Lazarus was indeed the same Mary as Mary Magdelene. And one can reason that if indeed Jesus and Mary Magdelene were married, then it would almost surely follow that she was the same Mary as Martha's sister by watching how at the cruxifiction Jesus made provisions for his mother by assigning her for care to the desciples, but he was rather silent on Mary's future care, which might give way to the idea that she'd return to Bethany and Lazarus and Martha as already concluded by then.
But I'm still wrestling with the idea of whether Jesus had children or not. Certainly if he and Mary Magdelene were married, children were the reason to get married back then. But on the other hand too though, if indeed there had been offspring, it just seems to me that they would have appeared somewhere, possibly most likely in the Book of Acts in that time period after Jesus' death. Especially if they carried any of his "special qualities". Or possibly Paul might have ventured to meet them as he never truly met physical Jesus face to face, and he might have been curious about them. But they aren't mentioned in the standard canon. That's of course not proof that they didn't exist, but it's just something to behold that if they were there, the story kept such silence about them. | |
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Posted: 5/9/2009 3:02:58 PM | But I'm still wrestling with the idea of whether Jesus had children or not. Certainly if he and Mary Magdelene were married, children were the reason to get married back then. But on the other hand too though, if indeed there had been offspring, it just seems to me that they would have appeared somewhere, possibly most likely in the Book of Acts in that time period after Jesus' death.
I often wonder why folks continue to fail to check with the Orthodox Churches of the Eastern world to learn more about Jesus. Surely, there are many arcs of Christianity outside of the Western World, they are all self governing and they don't have a "masonic" political ("imperialist") reason to hide the "truth" like the Western World's churches are so regularly accused of. So, its only logical to conclude that anyone who really wanted to know if Jesus had kids or not could just go check with the Churches that were founded by the apostles in the Eastern World.
The churches founded by the Apostles themselves include the Patriarchates of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Rome. Antioch was one of the first. Alexandria is said to have been founded by Mark the Evangelist. Constantinople became the capital of a very big pro-Christian empire under Constantine. Jerusalem was the heart of Christ's ministry, place of his crucifixion, burial, resurrection and ascension. So, my recommendation would be to go ask the Church in Jerusalem or Antioch if they have any documents on who Christ's children were, or, if he had any. Rome would have been a great place to check, but Rome is heavily associated with western civilization. They have a very nice library in Rome, and St Paul was martyred under Nero there as well as the apostle Peter, adding all the more credibility to the fact that if anyone would know, Rome would. Plus, I don't believe that Rome ever had to contend with the impositions of Islamic domination after 632, like the patriarchates of Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem did. Yet, if documents were lost while Islam controlled those regions, then I'm sure the oral history would have protected something as important Christ's children. After all, Christ is an important aspect of Christianity in the East and in the West. Surely the Eastern churches would not "forget" to take notes on how many "children" Jesus had.
So, if one wanted to get around the work that secret societies of the west did to hide information about Jesus, I suppose the main churches to steer clear of while doing your research at would be the one in Rome, and maybe even Constantinople (its kinda close to the one in Rome, even though they do happen to administer their own affairs, independent of Rome, lol). I hope that the Eastern world churches are not also suspected of promoting a deception too in some of these books, are they? If their not, then, the answer to whether Christ had kids or not might just be a phone call away.
Good luck in trying to figure that one out O4. I hope the info on the Eastern Churches, the ones founded by the Apostles, can help you put the pieces together so that you have resolution on this issue. | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 3:17:47 PM | The fact about Mary having Children is something that the new Orthodox Church (in the 300's AD) had to keep secret. They had to show their connection to Jesus through Peter. They also have already came out and said that Mary Magdalene was not the same woman as the adulteress who was unnamed in a prior chapter, that it was only concocted to show repentance and that sin can be forgiven by the church. Wether Jesus and Mary were married or not, the idea is that Jesus' whole mission was around 3 to 4 years @ 27-33AD (somewhere in these years, that still are being discussed as to when exactly) from his baptism to Crucifixion, during this time is when Mary anointed him, prior to the crucifixion, The theory some have is that in the marriage rituals, where they married and had a time of waiting to consummate, that Mary could have been pregnant at the time of his crucifixion and resurrection, then taken into egypt for fear of being harmed, then onto Gaul with Joseph, while having given birth to her daughter in Egypt. Just theory... but a lot of info on it. Like the last link I gave about Mary, their concept is that Joseph of Arimathea was Mary's(Holy Mother) brother not uncle like it is believed and he adopted Jesus and married mary Magdalene making her Mary's adopted mother, OK, I don't buy into all of that, but It quotes a lot of scriptures, and really makes a case for Mary Magdalene (the Tower) being Mary of Bethany. And Nicodemus being her father, and maybe Jesus' father in law... is a good reason to place him with Joseph of Arimathea during the burial.
Like I said, you can't believe everything you read, but if you are interested, it gives you leads to search out and find more.
Some Say Mary Magdalene had 3 children Tamar (Sarah), Jesus II, and Josephes "Ha Rama Theo" (Arimathea?) What I have found out, and nothing is 100% accurate, (far from it) is that Joseph of Arimathea had a daughter, Enygeus (Anna) who married Bran the Blessed of Siluria (Briton) and had three children Josephes Ha Rama Theo, Beli (who married Anna, the sister of Jesus) and Penardun (who married King Marius of Siluria) Penardun was also a warrior general in the battles against Rome, under the warrior Queen, Boadecia of Iceni in 60-61 AD. But that Josephes Ha Rama Theo married Tamar, daughter of Mary Magdalene. There is a line that is created by Tamar and Josephes called the Grail Kings (Josue, Aminadab, Cathaloys onto Pharamond) as well as a line that starts With Penardun and King Marius. (Coel Colius,"Old King Cole" through the Franks and Sicambrian Franks to Argotta, who married Pharamond, creating the beginning of the Merovingians (Clodio, Meerovbee and down until they are taken over by the Carolingians through marriage and a direct line by Sigimberus (brother of Meerovbee) to Charlemagne and Charles the Bald, which splits and goes through the Counts of Flanders one way and through the counts of Lorraine & Anjou another way, to connect again and create the Plantagenet line of British Kings King HenryII, John Lackland, Edwards I II III and so on. There are disputes about some records, and I have done it this way... Where one might say Jack and Jill were married and had a son named Tim in 7 of the ten records, and 3 say that Jack and Jills son was Tom. I research it, but usually the 7 out of ten ends up more accurate. And remember As much as a lot of it is accurate, there are always possibilities of holes. | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 3:29:02 PM | Oh wow! Where's the documentation/evidence? I'd love to read it!
Wait, its all just a theory?
but a lot of info on it
Oh, you gave out links? I'll have to check them out...
Who has checked with the Orthodox Churches for info, do you know? Or, is this one of those situations where "theory" dictates the available resources to investigate? | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 3:40:06 PM | Here is another link... I have around a hundred (not just about Mary, but all this history), and yes I have looked through the Catholic links as well
http://www.markdroberts.com/htmfiles/resources/jesusmarried.htm
even this link is by an Orthodox Christian, most info disputes the theory, but also puts light on it. I can see why an Orthodox Christian leader will dispute it. and I'm not saying anything that is evident. just ideas.
I'm not really wanting to make this only about Mary Magdalene and wether she was married to Jesus or not either, Just how History, and Religion coexist, and creates a bigger picture. But also how things like astrology are looked down on by religion, when in fact could be a tool God has given us.
By the way Kat, Of course the Orthodox Churches will dispute this, but by no means are they the experts. | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 3:43:25 PM | I guess you would have to firmly establish a motive to lie, like some kind of documentation, before fairly excluding their ability to shed light on the matter, in light of their relationship to the actual Apostles. I'll check out your links. :)
I'm not really wanting to make this only about Mary Magdalene and whether she was married to Jesus or not either, Just how History, and Religion coexist, and creates a bigger picture. But also how things like astrology are looked down on by religion, when in fact could be a tool God has given us.
Oh, with respect to things like astrology, the iching, the tarot, owji boards, etc.,. they might be ways of obtaining false information. For example, if you ask the tarot, "who am I," its up to you to believe it or not. If you believe something that's not true, that would not be good. Also, if you believe in a spiritual battle between the forces of good and evil in places not seen, how easy would it be for the dark side to use such things to bring you not towards life, but towards death? So actually, the discouraging of astrology and related things are more likely for the sake of personal safety against demonic forces more so than an attempt to limit or censor. At least, that's how I interpret why those things are looked down on. I guess one's safety when using those things would actually depend on the strength of one's guardian angel and amount of grace possessed by the individual employing them--if you believe in a battle between good and evil. If you don't, then one sways with the breeze that one enjoys, I guess (and I say that not to promote it, but, to shed light on why those who do believe don't endorse such things as good and safe practice for one's soul). | |
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Posted: 5/9/2009 4:23:21 PM | Oh, to shed some more light on "precisely" why divination is looked down on instead of envisioned as a gift from God, check out these three passages from the Catechism. Please test if you think that any of what is said on divination and magic in the info below makes sense to you.
Divination and magic
2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility. [305]
2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future. [Cf. Deut 18:10; Jer 29:8] Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.
2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity. | |
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Posted: 5/9/2009 5:10:16 PM | Your talking about mans laws of a religion, of a church. Wasn't that one thing Christ himself fought against, the laws man put on other men in the name of God. Now, I said nothing about reading palms or horoscopes or any kind of prediction over men. People can play cards & people can gamble. It's like being a Christian, one can believe in the teachings of Christ, and others will believe in the teachings of their church.
A person can go to a doctor and have a pill prescribed for being depressed, he could also decide to see a therapist and deal with his depression that way.
I've read that both Abraham and Moses were astronomers. Studying the stars, astrology is the same, it isn't about horrorscopes.(yes, some can make it about that) I'm talking about the astrologers of old, it was how we determined time and the calendar and many other things. The Egyptian pyramids are aligned with the stars. But like Science, Astrology was a road block that the Orthodox Church had to dispute. It's about controlling the masses... not learning about Christ. I'm not going to sit here and knock any one or any church, but I know the History, and it was about control, it always is.
What people don't realize is that time, those three hundred years, from Christ to the Council of Nicea, the Library of Alexandria was burned down (I think even twice) and other writings were destroyed. There was a major push for control and it for the most part succeeded... some things survived, and we keep finding things.
I'm adding some links.. they vary from biblical to Genealogical and info on Joseph of Arimathea (who I think is a major role in all this)
The last link is fun.... you type in your birthday and in an instant gives you so much detail about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_document
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
http://www.earth-history.com/Europe/ancient-europe.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Thomas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Magus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_of_Galilee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caratacus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_of_Arimathea
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_of_Arimathea
http://fabpedigree.com/s069/f005194.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/ego/et_deo/grail_kings.wps.htm
http://www.sagen.at/texte/sagen/grossbitannien/borron.html
http://www.britannia.com/history/articles/josanc.html
http://www.paulsadowski.com/BirthData.asp | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 5:26:56 PM | It would be helpful if you might illustrate, for example, what aspects of those Catechism passages I shared are most controlling, illogical, or contradictory. Not only would your response to the wording in the passages make an interesting read, but, you will gain a case in support of divination based on at least one Church's official opinion regarding divination. What say you?
Thanks for more links. | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 6:19:37 PM | Honestly, I'm not sure what you're asking, I mean, divination to me is pretty broad. If you are meaning prophesy or visions? Am I to believe that the Catechism passages state that all prophesy or visions is evil?
Does the Pope have Prophesy or visions? Is it not a possibility that God speaks to us all? If one believes he has had a vision that an Angel has told him something? Does it have to be evil?
Why is it that a few, teach the many, that only they are worthy of being in contact with the divine? I believe God will speak to who ever he wants, and that there isn't anyone on earth that can challenge that.
So if someone is saying that you can't, and that in fact if you do, God is not happy, and you must be talking to demons. I don't buy into it. Now is there scripture that talks about predicting things and not to do it. Sure, you can make that case.
But, like does the Bible say not to add or take away from this book? NO, I believe it is Revelations that states that, and if it wasn't included, it wouldn't be there at all, The author of Revelations was making the statement not to mess with his book. When he wrote it, he didn't know it would be thrown together with others and create a larger book. It doesn't make the words less important, it only shows what happens when people get carried away and take everything so literally.
I can't dispute what is written in the Catechism, I'm no authority... but I don't buy into Man made laws written to control the people, to make them feel they don't have the power to be close to God on their own, without the rule of a church.
I hope that answered your question good enough, I'm not trying to tell anyone how to think, this isn't about religion... It's about being open to thinking for yourself and searching and doing research on your own, and if you are interested.. what your thoughts are on these subjects, concerning history and the different concepts which include this string of secret societies.
I'm interested in the History of someone like Joseph of Arimathea, and the influence he may have had throughout time. It's as simple as that. | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 7:27:44 PM |
Honestly, I'm not sure what you're asking, I mean, divination to me is pretty broad. If you are meaning prophesy or visions? Am I to believe that the Catechism passages state that all prophesy or visions is evil?
No, I was just asking about what you thought about the actual content contained therein on the topic of divination and magic. | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 8:01:08 PM | Ok, so your asking me if I personally believe in prophesies, like that of the 2012 date? of in the black arts of Magic or the reading of palms and horoscopes? or things like this? If this is what you're asking, I don't know enough about them to believe in them, do I think they are completely hogwash? no, but I don't buy into them either... But there is something there, something to open your mind to and take a look, will I get caught up in worshipping satin, NO, not for me... Do I look at numerology and astrology, yes, It's interesting, do I know much about it, NO I only know a few unusual things about me, unusual probably only to me... but I don't understand it.
example... In numerology my name is: first name (909) middle name (576) and Last name (486) equaling 1,971.
My birth day 3 12 1956 3 + 12 + 1956 also equals 1,971 I find it interesting, But does it mean anything, I don't know.
also 3 12 1956 is 3 1+2=3 and 1+9+5+6=21 2+1=3 My birthday is 333 equals 9, I was born on a leap year, the 72nd day=9, the time =9 on a Monday=9 (It was the 9th week, 9th day of the year)
my name 909=9 (9+0+9=18 1+8=9) 576=9 & 486=9 999
I could keep going... But I won't keep boring you, it means nothing... It's just interesting. Well, let me say in numerology it means nothing to ME, cause I don't know it, but in writing a story... it is a lot of fun.
I'm not into the occult, but I think if someone is thats there thing, and not for me to say, they may be on to something.
I do believe that a lot of the early philosophers where very educated in all sorts of things from mathematics to astrology. I also believe that these weren't the ones Jesus was upset with, he was upset with those who forced rules of God, made up by them onto people.
anyway, I'm not sure if I was helpful with that answer either. | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 8:12:40 PM |
I also believe that these weren't the ones Jesus was upset with, he was upset with those who forced rules of God, made up by them onto people.
You are absolutely on the mark Jack. To do 'wrong' oneself is one thing, but in the bible it is quite clear that to lead others away from good or toward doing wrong is QUITE ANOTHER! And it was the Saducies and the Pharacies that were the biggest culprits in his day, and the ones he fought with the hardest and most. As for with "normal" people, he didn't really "fight" with them for the most part, but just tried to help them to come to know grace, forgiveness, and trying to do better this day forward.....Look at the woman at the well for a great example.
Kudos on a good discussion here Jack! | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 8:40:52 PM | When I was a teenager I was a Rainbow girl which is part of the Masons. Boys belonged to DeMolay which was named after the last leader of the Knights Templar, Jacques DeMolay. Eastern Star is for women. Cannot think of when the men in my family were not Masons going back to the mid 1700's. Do know that my family has been in California since the early 1800's when Jefferson sent Captain John Charles Fremont west to explore California. Until various books became best sellers in the last decade or so I never knew any of these Mason groups were even seen as negative by anyone. All I knew was they were all groups who strived to make the community better via various activities. Have to laugh when I hear some of the (start mysterious music here)wild ideas said about them.
As for Christ having fathered children all I know is that as a practicing Jew it would have been very unusual for him to not have married and had children. One would need to know Judaism to understand why. And I do not see him as some 'God', but a brilliant man who tried so hard to remind people not to be sheep led to the slaughter by leaders who wanted to tell them what to think rather than teach them how to think, and that nothing would change unless they heeded his words. As such he was right then and he is right now. The creator gave us a brain and wants us to use it, and not get sucked into the sky is falling type thinking.
~Beth~
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 9:31:06 PM |
Ok, so your asking me if I personally believe in prophesies, like that of the 2012 date? of in the black arts of Magic or the reading of palms and horoscopes? or things like this?
No, I was just asking about what you thought about the actual content contained in that Catechism passage on the topic of divination and magic.
I could keep going... But I won't keep boring you, it means nothing... It's just interesting. Well, let me say in numerology it means nothing to ME, cause I don't know it, but in writing a story... it is a lot of fun.
No. I'm not bored. I've loved the iching all of my life. Today I see it as insight inspiring literature, that's all, and I stopped running to it like I would a parent, as I did in my younger years...asking "it" questions became quite a crutch. I think the consequence of not taking it as seriously as I once did was that I got to know myself a bit better, don't quite know how that worked... someone I dearly love is incorporating a form of divination in a novel way in their writing too...their report is that its fun as well.
anyway, I'm not sure if I was helpful with that answer either.
No worries. :) | |
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| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 10:10:42 PM | Well, I don't know what you mean by iching? and don't understand why you would run to it like it was your parents... Either I'm very confused... Or we are thinking something completely different. Like I said, I haven't gotten into it, to understand it. Just learned how to apply the methods to me... for my book. Just part of a story. Nothing to run to and look at. No crutches here.
Do I read my horoscope? NO, Do I think the world will end in 2012? No, Do I think our political and social issues of today will send us to hell, NO. But it is all interesting and fun to discuss. And I believe in having an open mind. Do I think a person is an idiot to not go out side because his horoscope tells him not to... YES, but they have that right.
Part of what 04 said, about influencing others about the truth of God. It goes both ways, you can encourage a non-believing opinion or an overly controlling belief of faith, based on a Religious ideology, rather than on God's law itself. And in both cases you are doing them, and yourself no good. (In my opinion.... 8) )
04 is right, We are not suppose to talk people out of the truth of God. Instead, we should shine a light on that truth. The truth in my opinion, is through Jesus, and God himself, not through the belief's someone else has of God. Now, I'm not knocking religion, through religion you can learn about God, but you can't hide in a church to find him.
I believe Jesus could still be the son of God, and be married and a father. If, I'm wrong, he will tell me I'm wrong. And I'm not trying to convince anyone anything. If a Church tells me that they think I'm wrong, but I should search it out, No Harm, No Foul. But if they TELL me I AM wrong, and I was right. Well... this is why I would rather think for myself. | |
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