| DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted: 6/11/2009 2:29:23 PM | As you are all probably aware due to the massive amount of news stories on it, a man attacked the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, killing one security guard and being shot into submission by other security guards.
But did the D.C. Gun Ban, which was recently overturned in the Supreme Court, actually HELP this shooter because the guards have had LITTLE to NO training with their weapons???
The security guards in DC were prevented from taking their weapons from work to practice or train with unless they received a Permit from the DC police department, which prior to the ruling was impossible to get, and even now, reportedly almost just as impossible to get now because the DC police don't want security forces (or anyone else) to have them.
This in my view substantially reduces the amount of protection one could expect from these guards as they COULD NOT receive enough training to be effective shots. This is made more obvious by the fact that the shooter used a .22 caliber Rifle (considered by most to be marginally effective against anything bigger than a rabbit) yet managed to KILL a guard, while the three guards who fired upon him mostly MISSED and obviously couldn't manage to make kill shots with much more powerful weapons.
So it follows that the DC Gun Ban has actually HELPED CRIMINALS by reducing the potential training the DC security guards can receive.
This is only my view. What's YOUR take on the issue?? | |
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| DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted: 6/11/2009 3:09:59 PM |
WASHINGTON (AP) — The director of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum says their security training helped save lives when guards quickly shot an elderly gunman who opened fire with a rifle.
Sara Bloomfield also paid tribute to a guard who was killed in the Wednesday attack. She told NBC's "Today" show Thursday that 39-year-old officer Stephen Tyrone Johns was both a terrific professional and a warm, jovial person.
Authorities say the gunman who was critically injured was 88-year-old James W. von Brunn. They say he was a white supremacist with a virulent anti-Semitic past.
Bloomfield told the "Today" show that the Holocaust museum takes security very seriously and training for its guards had paid off because two guards stopped the attacker and no visitors were hurt.
Seems that the theory they weren't trained to handle guns is false. The guard that politely opened the door was ambushed and the rest of the guards took out the perpetrator without injuring anyone else. You don't mention the distance these guards had to shoot or any obstacles Van Braun might have been using for cover. You don't mention how many shots in a firefight are simply used as cover shots while your team members maneuver into position to take out the SINGLE CRIMINAL in this case.
How much training did the guards actually have? I've gone to shooting ranges and used guns they supplied. | |
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| DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted: 6/11/2009 4:01:21 PM |
But did the D.C. Gun Ban, which was recently overturned in the Supreme Court, actually HELP this shooter because the guards have had LITTLE to NO training with their weapons???
Just make crap up to defend the 2Nd....
The Holocaust Museum is the BULLS eye for many groups. These men are serving their country.
One has paid the price and you are willing to discredit his efforts and life.
Home Land Security warned about this happening some time back. | |
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| DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted: 6/11/2009 4:01:26 PM | These types of incidents happen all over the world, and this incident was ended rather quickly, with the loss of only one innocent victim. As was mentioned, the victim was taken by surprise, and had no chance to respond.
Police and security people sometimes die in the line of duty, no matter how much training they have.
The perpetrator was taken down quickly, and without any additional loss of life. I am sure a report will be done, and the response will be investigated. From what I've read, one of the shots that dropped him was a headshot.
He remained hospitalized in critical condition Thursday from shots fired by other security guards. The complaint says he was shot in the face and fell backward outside the museum's front door.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/11/museum.shooting/index.html
In a fast moving situation, with one person already down, the fact that he was taken out that quickly seems to indicate that those responding did exactly what was required of them. I would imagine that there were other innocent people around, and none seem to have been wounded.
After such an ambush type of attack, it's perhaps the best possible outcome that could have been demanded or expected. | |
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| DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted: 6/11/2009 4:44:23 PM |
This is made more obvious by the fact that the shooter used a .22 caliber Rifle (considered by most to be marginally effective against anything bigger than a rabbit) yet managed to KILL a guard
22 Caliber?
Jeff Cooper's Commentaries
It happens that Mossad, the Israeli attack squad, fancies the use of the 22 pistol as a murder weapon. This is quite sound when the pistol is used in a totally offensive mode, since the subject is confronted just out of arm's length and hit ten times quickly in the chest area. Ten 22-caliber holes in the thorax are fatal, as any qualified thoracic surgeon will tell you.
http://dvc.org.uk/jeff/jeff5_7.html
Mafia hits have used a 22... single shot behind the ear.
I believe several of the Black September group were off'ed with the Rabbit caliber. | |
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| DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted: 6/11/2009 5:41:46 PM | I think shrek's point was perhaps more oriented to the fact that it was a rifle, and less so a .22. That caliber has been known to core a victims brain like an apple, in my research on it. The round simply continues around inside the skull, until it stops.
It's perhaps due to a rather stupid choice of assault weapon that the toll wasn't higher. An 89 year old man would certainly not be typically seen by most security people as a primary concern. Had he been armed with a pistol, or sawed off shot gun (weapons he did use in an earlier crime) , the dead and wounded toll might have been higher perhaps.
Officials said Johns didn't have a chance to draw his weapon before von Brunn pulled the trigger. Other guards returned fire, hitting von Brunn and stopping the assault moments after it began.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105247692&ft=1&f=1001
I doubt that one can fault the security, as a surprise attack was stopped almost instantly after it started. One cannot fault them for perhaps not expecting such an attack from an elderly white male, as I said.
A frustrated artist and an angry man, the gunman in the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum shooting once tried to kidnap members of the Federal Reserve board, a caper thwarted when a guard captured him outside a board meeting carrying a bag stuffed with weapons.
James von Brunn, 89, a white supremacist and Holocaust denier, describes the assault with apparent pride on his Web site, the source of fulmination against Jews and races other than his own.
Despite the revolver, sawed-off shotgun and knife found in his bag that day, von Brunn insisted he was trying to place the board under legal, non-violent citizens-arrest.
A self-described artist, advertising man and author living in Annapolis, Maryland, von Brunn wrote an anti-Semitic treatise, 'Kill the Best Gentiles', that he said no one would publish. He decries the 'browning' of America and claims to expose a Jewish conspiracy to destroy the White gene-pool.
Von Brunn also wrote, "The 'Holocaust' Religion is destroying Western Civilization. The Aryan gene-pool dies, 'unwept, unhonored and unsung.'"
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1091987.html
One would have to wonder how such a person, with such a record and public website, was not under more police scrutiny. | |
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| DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted: 6/12/2009 11:50:25 AM |
One would have to wonder how such a person, with such a record and public website, was not under more police scrutiny.
Agreed, MG. However, it has been 20 years since von Brunn was released from prison after serving 6 years for armed kidnapping (attempted).
von Brunn lived in Maryland where it is unlawful for a convicted felon to own, possess or purchase a firearm or ammunition. This is another example of how banning or restricting guns for law abiding citizens will do nothing to prevent a criminal from obtaining one when they are intent on committing a violent crime. FBI officials also discovered a 30/30 rifle in von Brunn's bedroom after the crime.
~ds~ | |
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| DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted: 6/13/2009 3:07:40 AM |
This is another example of how banning or restricting guns for law abiding citizens will do nothing to prevent a criminal from obtaining one when they are intent on committing a violent crime.
OK lets give up......
Maybe if special interested didn't write the laws.... Without every loophole and angle...... the system might be workable, enforceable.
Example the Nazi Nut case in Philadelphia that killed 3 Police Officers.
A Mental, Less than honorable discharge from the Marines..... He legally could buy guns...
The NRA wrote H.R. 2640 The compromise bill making veterans prohibited from possessing firearms for mental health reasons eligible.
NRA members should be ashamed. They made this Bill Meaningless. | |
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| DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted: 6/13/2009 6:45:25 AM |
davidsauvignon
von Brunn lived in Maryland where it is unlawful for a convicted felon to own, possess or purchase a firearm or ammunition. This is another example of how banning or restricting guns for law abiding citizens will do nothing to prevent a criminal from obtaining one when they are intent on committing a violent crime. ...
It is unlawful in most states for anyone to own, possess or purchase marijuana, too. But local police and Federal agencies vigorously chase down leads and execute raids to locate, confiscate and destroy such contraband. Maybe if they rechanneled all that law-enforcement effort into seizing something that's actually dangerous, there'd be a positive impact on public safety. Sure, they can't take all the guns away from all the nutcases all the time, but most of the time they don't even try. | |
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| DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted: 6/13/2009 10:44:23 AM | It is unlawful in most states for anyone to own, possess or purchase marijuana, too. But local police and Federal agencies vigorously chase down leads and execute raids to locate, confiscate and destroy such contraband. Maybe if they rechanneled all that law-enforcement effort into seizing something that's actually dangerous, there'd be a positive impact on public safety. Sure, they can't take all the guns away from all the nutcases all the time, but most of the time they don't even try.
I think the problem is, people with guns are a lot more secretive than those with marijuana. If I wanted some pot, I could get it within a half an hour through people I know and come in contact with daily. If I wanted a gun, it would take much more work and dealing with much more unscupulous characters to do so. Guns are way more underground than weed. So that probably has something to do with the fact more marijuana is confiscated than guns. | |
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| DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted: 6/13/2009 11:53:18 AM | Look, such shootings happen all over the world. They happen a lot more in the USA, which is perhaps understandable due to the amount of people with guns there. It's simply a matter of statistical probability that somewhere in such a group there will be violently insane people.
The province I live in has had four major shooting sprees in the last thirty years or so.
1) University of Montreal Polytechnique (14 dead, 14 wounded)
2) Concordia University ( 4 dead)
3) Dawson College ( 1 dead, 19 wounded)
4) The Quebec National assembly. ( 3 dead, 13 wounded)
The first three were with legal registered weapons, the last one with weapons stolen from a military armory by a soldier.
These are exceptions to the general rule, and perhaps prove it. Our murder and homicide rate is far lower than many countries, and criminals do not rule the streets. This is not only due to our gun laws, but also our cultural influences where guns are not as "valued" as a weapon.
Shootings have occurred in other countries, as well. As long as there are guns and mentally ill people, sometimes the two will intersect. The trick is to see what can be done to oversee that happening less, and that can work.
Gun laws will never STOP such crimes, but they can go a long way towards REDUCING them in their death toll and frequency - if one can culturally accept such an idea. If one can't , then one has to find a way that works within that culture. | |
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| DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted: 6/14/2009 6:58:47 PM | It is definitely a good example of liberal progressive battle for human rights and what they deem as freedom in action.
Had he been properly disposed of when he first showed he was nuts, this never would have happened.
But, no, you try to rehabilitate them and turn them loose with little/no followup observation, because people think that criminals should have rights...but guess what, rehabilitation DOESNT WORK!!
Violent felons should never again see the light of day. We need a FAST TRACK to the Death Penalty...much like Texas has. No more of the Limitless Appeals that slow it down...make the Death Penalty more of a true deterrant like it used to be. | |
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| DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted: 6/14/2009 10:11:02 PM |
but guess what, rehabilitation DOESNT WORK!!
Now come, you know that it does work in about every 20th person, therefore we should give them all a chance. Never mind what the other 19 do, it's that 20th that finds God and becomes a missionary in Indonesia that makes it worth all the other potential carnage......
*now bowing head in disbelief as I reread what I just wrote and realise although I considered it to be satire there are people out there who really feel this way* | |
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| DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted: 6/14/2009 10:47:27 PM |
Ready4SomethingFun
... I think the problem is, people with guns are a lot more secretive than those with marijuana. ...
I don't rub elbows with those sorts of folks very often, but I would have to believe that people who are in possession of ILLEGAL firearms, or who have lost the right to legally possess firearms, would be very secretive, indeed. | |
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| DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted: 6/15/2009 6:30:00 PM | | Heh, the USA has not really been interested in rehabilitation of criminals since around the time it started the war on drugs. | |
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| DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted: 6/15/2009 7:26:08 PM | Look at all the mass killings and nut job gun crimes in switzerland where there is a gun in every home, issued by the government.
And they force them all to stay proficient with target practice a few times a year.
Oh well... they actually have a low crime rate.. there goes that theory.... | |
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| DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted: 6/16/2009 10:08:27 AM | the guy was a looney. but isnt' the DC ban a hand gun ban? didn't this guy walk into the museum with two shotguns in tow? how does one do that without attracting attention?
also, what about the shooting of the soldier at the recruitment center in arkansas?
it's interesting how these two stories are treated in the press. we have two shootings, and both perpetrated by nutcases - one a white supremacist, and the other a religious fanatic of islamic persuasion. the press is foaming at the mouth over this paleo-nazi wack-o, and barely mentions the fanatic violence perpetrated by a man formerly known as carlos bledsoe who felt that killing this soldier was a religious duty, and that he was not guilty of murder.
both are nutcases. there is no difference between the two. | |
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| DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted: 6/16/2009 10:49:31 PM | We all heard about the Arkansas shooting.
The reason we're hearing more about this is because the conservative wacko's have been killing people on an increasingly regular basis the last few months. | |
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