| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 3:34:16 PM | I'm hoping to gain some insight here. I know it will require alot of courage for those who might have some - am really hoping some will have that courage.
I've had my fair share of adversity in my life - who hasn't? But personally, I am the type of person who realizes (1) when I've made mistakes, (2) what I might have done differently, and (3) how to move forward so that I don't make the same mistakes again. I have definitely come to the realization over the years that not everyone puts forth the same amount of effort in that as I do. However, I cannot for the life me, understand why there are people who wallow in those adversities and allow them to sabotage all of their relationships - if they even allow someone in to begin with. Even more confusing to me is when someone of that nature does intentionally seek out a close relationship with someone and then suddenly turn around and do something that they know will end it. It's completely obvious when someone does that, that they couldn't handle a relationship - buy why work so hard on trying to get it then?
I'm talking about a person who has dealt with some very traumatic childhood experiences - the nature of which most people could never understand. Someone who has had VERY few close (by what the majority of us would call 'close' that is) relationships. A person who's idea of a 'close friend' is what the rest of us would call acquaintances or casual friends. I understand that traumatic childhood experiences do have a way of defining us - even if we learn to get over them......they still are a part of who we are. I always try to understand how other people think & feel (especially when it's different than I do) - so I would very much appreciate some insight into why someone would allow their past to not just define who they are - but to also limit all of their relationships with people - as friends or otherwise......especially when they actively seek out a relationship........? | |
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| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 4:03:46 PM | Having dated girls who were sexually abused in the past, this is how I feel about the subject.
How dare someone who's been through a tragedy use it against their significant other in anger. My best friend in high school was raped by her step father at age 7. Never once did she bring it up in anger to this day. Another girl I dated CONSTANTLY brought it up in anger. I remember once she's like "Oh you wouldn't say that about my rape" and I was like uhh I wouldn't bring up your rape. She uses it as a scapegoat for all her failures in life and it's truly pathetic. If only she wasn't raped she would have not failed out of college 5 times, if only she wasn't raped she'd still be with the love of her life.
As a man, I could never 100% understand rape nor would I ever try to pretend that I could, but there are things just as bad that aren't rape that could happen to a man. I didn't have a good childhood and I'll leave it at that, but I don't take my anger out on people I love over it. I refuse to let things that happened 15+ years ago define me as a person today.
If a woman doesn't trust men because she's been sexually abused, she shouldn't be dating. She should concentrate on therapy. She should also be able to see good men for what they are, good men, not make villains out of men because they don't want to put up with a girl who brings up past traumas as the reason why she's being rude.
I just thank god I broke up with that girl because I can't imagine spending another day with her. | |
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| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 4:04:53 PM | People are built differently. The same experiences that completely disables one person will fuel another to have great success in whatever they pursue. People are comfortable with the known and something outside of that framework is scary. If they fully participate and you then reject them that is a bigger blow to the already fragile ego than intentionally doing something to cause the demise of the relationship.
People either eventually discover that they are the common denominator or they will continue to go from relationship to relationship blaming the other party for those situations not working out. You knew early on apparently that this person was broken, it shoudn't have come as a great surprise that he was not only broken, but had no desire to repair himself. The why doesn't really matter and it won't help you identify the next person that is actually emotionally unavailable regardless of the way he chooses to display or hide that. | |
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| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 4:12:11 PM | I'm 50-50 with you on this one.
Your 50:
I agree with everything you commented about you, and live the same way. Live and learn. I get better rather then bitter.
You lost me 50: This is where I take the next turn and drive away. This is what I call "living in someone else's drama". Spending really any time what so ever worrying and thinking about why others do as they do.
I can't bother myself and waste any time wondering why people can't live the way "I" do or live better then they do. "Live and let live" With out those types "we" as people who live a better way of life (under our own beliefs) wouldn't be the prize we are! | |
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| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 4:41:43 PM | | The Rock Man - thanks for understanding at least the half of it. However, the rest of your post reminded me of other people I've known - and that's probably another post on another subject. But basically, I genuinely care people - even people I've never met, or ever will meet. I care about how they feel, what they've been through, and definitely how I can help them if I am ever able to. That is who I am - I have a hard time even watching the news because even though I don't know the people - it hurts to hear about what they are going through. So when it is someone that I do actually know - I am even more connected to their pain. Does that make any sense? | |
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| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 4:55:21 PM | I see your point, sometimes empathy can go too far though.
When I'm involved with someone, what hurts them hurts me....even if it's them. At some point, I conclude that their self-sabotage is detrimental to my own peace of mind. At that point I begin to extricate myself from their life in self-defense. I've learned that love shouldn't mean that I have to circle the drain with them. | |
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| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 5:02:26 PM | I assume that's what you meant when you said a very traumatic childhood event that not many people could understand.
But even if you didn't, I just was giving my two cents about the whole traumatic event thing. | |
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| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 5:24:15 PM | "I have definitely come to the realization over the years that not everyone puts forth the same amount of effort in that as I do"
Of course not...some people tend to put more effort so they can ask for more....later.
There are people who would run and offer you a pack of cigarettes for "free" ...so they can later ask for a carton of cigarettes. (this is just an example I don't smoke)
I take myself as an example.
How much effort am I expected to put in a relationship to keep it ?. And why should I put a bleeding effort in it ?
Why most of the relatiosnhips tend to be a Master - Slave setup? Why ?
Every time I came out of a relationship ..I had the feeling of ...Phewwww, jees how sweet is freedom. WHY? Why do I feel that way ? Is is something "wrong" with me ?
Why are so many women pushing it to the breaking points with their demand and "effort" expectations ?
I never sabotaged relationships...at least that's how I feel about it...but HEY....I have my own paste and RYTHM of life. Do you guys understand this ?
Do you guys think a man wants to come home from work and just jump into other crap and stuff and "put effort" ? Well super good luck then for all of you. I am just an outside watcher and laughing.
What do you ask your kids? Just to hop around their love to "prove" themselves' ?
and show up with "relationship resumes" ? for impressing ? And then later you cry that .... OH this is not what I expected. Well Duuuuh ! | |
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| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 5:32:17 PM | | Just to clarify here since I seem to have stated my original post in a confusing manner - I am trying to understand OTHER people who sabotage their own relationships, based on whatever issues they've had in their past - of whatever nature - just simply being too hurt by them to be able to allow anyone to get close to them. For me personally - yes, hurt happens, broken hearts happen, people sometimes leave you because of THEIR own issues-not always yours, but I'm trying to understand the people who say they want to be close with people (as friends, lovers, or whatever), and then intentionally screw it up. Like I said, I realize that they aren't able to completely deal with the idea of having a real relationship, even if they seem to want to, but that's where my confusion comes in - if they REALLY do want real relationships, then why screw it up at every opportunity? As I originally mentioned, I know the answer to this lies in the minds of those who will find it difficult to answer. I know the 'rational' explanations. I would really like to hear from those who exhibit this behavior - remembering that this is an annoyamous forum where it is safe to express your beliefs. | |
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| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 5:40:04 PM |
… I would really like to hear from those who exhibit this behavior
MilwGirl, I think most of those people would have no awareness that it’s happening and would be resistant to the idea. | |
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| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 5:41:41 PM | | Every person you meet these days thinks that their childhood was somehow more traumatic than everyone elses. I believe their are two kinds of people out there swimmers and sinkers. You get to chose which one you want to be. | |
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| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 5:46:18 PM |
I cannot for the life me, understand why there are people who wallow in those adversities and allow them to sabotage all of their relationships
Because a lot of people don't really realize they are doing it? It's just their automatic behavior based on a situation? Or an automatic response to another person's behavior towards them?
Or they are simply using it as a tool in order to get what they want but really what is motivating them is not the "traumatic childhood experience" but deeper underlying issues? It's just far easier to use the "traumatic childhood experience" than mature, change, or grow?
Even more confusing to me is when someone of that nature does intentionally seek out a close relationship with someone and then suddenly turn around and do something that they know will end it.
You are assuming they want the close relationship in the first place.
Not that the idea of a close relationship may be an idealized romantic fantasy of theirs.
Or they think that is what they are supposed to want, or what "normal" people want.
So they simply manipulate and use people to obtain what they think they want, pay people with what the deluded person thinks the other wants. When the truth is the "traumatized" person simply wants the validation and gratification associated with the idea of a "close relationship."
Then they can use their "childhood traumatic experience" as a scapegoat to keep them from assuming responsibility or blame when it doesn't live up to the fantasy, and after they've gotten what they really wanted, but refuse to see that is what they really want. (because it might make them bad...and people can't handle thinking of themselves as bad...it's either I'm good, or damaged...and if damaged it's not my fault)
Again, most of the time (IMO) it is trained automatic behavior. That people don't realize what they are doing until after it is done, and then wonder why they keep doing it.
why work so hard on trying to get it then?
Because there is a lot of gratification and validation in the pursuit of the ideal.
I understand that traumatic childhood experiences do have a way of defining us - even if we learn to get over them.
I wouldn't agree with that. I would amend it to "traumatic childhood experiences have a way of affecting us, our entire lives, in ways that are not always apparent nor completely and absolutely resolved...no matter how much self knowledge, discovery, or work we do."
why someone would allow their past to not just define who they are - but to also limit all of their relationships with people - as friends or otherwise......especially when they actively seek out a relationship........?
Because it's safer. And easier. Then after a while it becomes their "norm." Then after a while it becomes "the way it is," or, "that's me, that's just the way I am..."
And in order to "break through" (especially in terms of severe conditioning) it takes a lot of time and one sided focus, and even then there are no guarantees it won't make things worse.
It takes so much time it starts to feel like one person is the other person's psychiatrist and mental nursemaid, not a relationship. And the non "childhood trauma experience" person wanted a relationship. Why stick around if it's more than likely to never really be what the non trauma person wants?
Not to mention that no matter how the relationship works out, they receive their validation and gratification. Therefore no incentive to change their behavior.
They pull away and you chase? Great, you've validated they're worth chasing.
You chase for a bit then give up? Great, they were right in either that they really are not worth chasing or that you weren't a good enough person to chase. So either they are right about themselves, and living the right path. And/or they were better than you because you can't see a good thing to chase.
They push you away and you still stick around? Great, they are worth sticking around for.
You stick around for a while then quit? Great, they were right about you and themselves.
You stick around even though the relationship is one sided and shallow? Great, that means no responsibility and no commitment...even though in the meantime they can delude themselves into believing it is fulfilling their idea of a relationship...and any problem will be rationalized as your fault. Because that's who they are, and you are supposed to accept them. You chose to stay knowing this, so the problem is on you. They are just the hapless victim of their past. | |
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| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 5:50:10 PM |
When I'm involved with someone, what hurts them hurts me....even if it's them. At some point, I conclude that their self-sabotage is detrimental to my own peace of mind. At that point I begin to extricate myself from their life in self-defense. I've learned that love shouldn't mean that I have to circle the drain with them.
Ya. What ^^^ he said.
If you can't put your past behind you, I will put it and you behind in mine... | |
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| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 6:31:31 PM | OP,
You may find it worthwhile to read a bit about attachment theory and brain development, as there's now quite a bit of research that helps illuminate the basis for the kind of "irrational" behavior you describe. The brief overview at http://www.helpguide.org/mental/eqa_attachment_bond.htm is a reasonable introduction. You might also be interested in Siegel's book The Developing Brain. I can give you more references if this looks like something to investigate further. | |
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| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 6:34:24 PM | This is interesting to me because I just ended relationship and it feels like he did just that. Out of the blue he started questioning everything I was doing. Everything became suspicious - if I worked late and therefore called later than normal, was I really working late? If I went to a movie with a girlfriend was it really with "her" or some unknown "him?" I was very hurt by the constant questioning of my integrity, which I take very seriously.
So here you have me, who HAS been cheated on and for me it reinforces the fact that I would never put someone though that pain, vs HIM who takes that past experience and uses it to justify unfounded accusations. I was very clear about what it was doing to me, and how he was pushing me away, yet he continued to do so. But people who do this either do not, or can not see that it is not about the other person. I finally had to say "enough" and realize not only that there was no way to combat this behavior or prove myself, but that I shouldn't HAVE to. It was about him and his insecurities and had nothing to do with me. I think sometimes we get so caught up in wanting to work things out it is hard to realize right away that you are beating the proverbial dead horse. Someone behaving like this will likely not recognize it and life is to short to waste on npeople who don't believe in you! | |
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| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 7:55:42 PM | I intentionally sabotage relationships and have come to that realization sometime last year. If a great guy is interested in me, I will wear a mask so he can't get to know the real me. That way, when he leaves, he hasn't left ME...he left the person I let him see....not the real woman I am.
It's less painful that way.
Notice I said "when" he leaves as opposed to "IF"...yup..working on that as well.
It takes a lot of courage to open up to a man (for me) especially when we're in a particularily vulnerable stage in life, so I have a tendancy of doing stupid things or eating to gain weight (unvolontarily!), saying stuff I don't mean so he has reason to leave...... | |
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| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 8:12:11 PM | You already have your answer:
I have definitely come to the realization over the years that not everyone puts forth the same amount of effort in that as I do.
There is a different reason for every person who is different than you. | |
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| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 8:17:06 PM | | Everybody has their own baggage, it's how you deal with it that makes the difference. Some choose to dwell on it and let it hold them back in everything they do after that point. Others learn to deal with it and are determined to not let it keep them from connecting to other people and not let it sabotage any other relationship they may have. You must learn to deal with the things that happen to you, or you won't ever be able to grow and allow others into your life in a healthy way. In the end, a healthy person will accept it for what it is and learn to move past it and be happy, whatever it takes. | |
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| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 8:33:23 PM | My experience of the type of situation you speak of has to do with a couple things. First off...everyone has an idea of what their own personal relationship heaven may be. They dream about it, imagine it, think about, etc. All in the comfort of their own mind.
Say they find someone who fits what they have been imagining. They are happy and excited about this dream come true and at first are open and willing. Everything goes great at first, then old "stuff" starts to emerge. The only way some of this "old stuff" flushes up is when it is touched by someone who gets close to their heart. Up comes the trust issues, the commitment issues...all of the pain that was caused by others who were close to them at some point in their life. And as you pointed out...someone who may have abused them, caused them pain, etc.
Friends, co-workers, acquaintances are never close enough to flush this stuff up so you never know it's hiding there until that person gets into a love relationship.
This happens to EVERYONE on some level. We have all been hurt. Not everyone has been abused, however. Some people have done the work to deal with the pain of their past and some have not. The ones who have not are often the biggest saboteurs. They get REALLY scared and create something to distract them from the fear of getting too close. There's my 2 cents worth! :) | |
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| People who intentionally sabotage relationships
Posted: 6/14/2009 9:44:52 PM | | wow i was just thinking what a profound question here on pof? then i read the OP's rather insensitive reply to humptyhump and now am a bit confused.......what's up with that? i thought his reply was appropriate and at the least deserved some respect. | |
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