| Sympathy for the Devil ?
Posted: 6/15/2009 1:02:10 PM | One of the ideas that has crossed my mind recently has been on some theological problems I've stumbled across with Christianity - and especially the Roman Catholic religion.
Now, although it's rather unlikely, I was thinking that one particular potential concept poses some rather interesting challenges to the Roman Catholic Church. To discuss this, one has to accept the concept of the Devil and his existence, as a base idea.
Now, what would happen if (God forbid) Lucifer decided to take an earthly form and walk into a Roman Catholic Church, accept Christ as his personal savior, and ask to be baptized ? I don't mean to imply that he'd try and pull a fast one (like he would ever think of such a thing  ) and try to mislead the priest into thinking he was someone else .
I mean the Monarch of Hell actually honestly stating who and what he was and sincerely asking to become a Christian. 
Now, talk about a problem for a priest. 
It's the penultimate saving of a soul, kind of like winning Powerball in a theological sense.  I mean we are probably easily talking sainthood here, aren't we ?
Except for one thing..... baptizing removes all prior sins. And it gets even worse.... ANY baptized person can perform the same sacrament on another...... oh....and simply ASKING for it seems to get you in if you are about to die (not really a problem for Satan, I'd guess, but still worth mentioning in passing. )
Christ Himself ordered His disciples to preach the Gospel to all nations and to baptize those who accept the message of the Gospel. In His encounter with Nicodemus (John 3:1-21), Christ made it clear that baptism was necessary for salvation: "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." For Catholics, the sacrament is not a mere formality; it is the very mark of a Christian, because it brings us into new life in Christ.
The baptism of desire applies both to those who, while wishing to be baptized, die before receiving the sacrament and "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of conscience" (Constitution on the Church, Second Vatican Council).
The Minister of the Sacrament of Baptism:
Since the form of baptism requires just the water and the words, the sacrament, like the Sacrament of Marriage, does not require a priest; any baptized person can baptize another. In fact, when the life of a person is in danger, even a non-baptized person—including someone who does not himself believe in Christ—can baptize, provided that the person performing the baptism follows the form of baptism and intends, by the baptism, to do what the Church does—in other words, to bring the person being baptized into the fullness of the Church.
The Effects of the Sacrament of Baptism:
Baptism has six primary effects, which are all supernatural graces:
1. The removal of the guilt of both Original Sin (the sin imparted to all mankind by the Fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden) and personal sin (the sins that we have committed ourselves).
2. The remission of all punishment that we owe because of sin, both temporal (in this world and in Purgatory) and eternal (the punishment that we would suffer in hell).
3. The infusion of grace in the form of sanctifying grace (the life of God within us); the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit; and the three theological virtues.
4. Becoming a part of Christ.
5. Becoming a part of the Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ on earth.
6. Enabling participation in the sacraments, the priesthood of all believers, and the growth in grace.
http://catholicism.about.com/od/beliefsteachings/p/Sac_Baptism.htm
One the other hand, in one simple move, you've destroyed Christianity while doing so.
That seems a little extreme right ?
Well, what happens to all the words written in the Bible in Revelations ? Those things can never happen if good ol' Beelzebub gets a mulligan and throws in the towel. It's game over essentially, and you have to wonder what would happen to the Roman Catholic Church if such a "victory" was ever accomplished.
In Catholic teachings, Saint Michael is viewed as the leader of the army of God. From the time of the apostles, he has been invoked and honored as the protector of the Church. Scripture describes him as "one of the chief princes" and the leader of Heaven's forces in their triumph over the powers of hell.
Saint Michael defeats Satan twice, first when he ejects Satan from Paradise, and then in the final battle of the end times. In his classic book Lives of the Saints, priest and hagiographer Alban Butler, defined the role of Saint Michael as follows:
"Who is like God?" was the cry of Archangel Michael when he smote the rebel Lucifer in the conflict of the heavenly hosts. And when Antichrist shall have set up his kingdom on earth, it is St Michael who will unfurl once more the standard of the cross, sound the last trumpet, bind together the false prophet and the beast and hurl them for all eternity into the burning pool.
It was Saint Michael who vanquished Satan and drove him out of Heaven. In the Book of Revelation (Rev 12, 7-9) Saint John wrote of Archangel Michael's role in the War in Heaven where he hurls Satan and the Fallen angels out of heaven to earth:
"And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down — that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him."
In Catholic teachings, Saint Michael will also triumph at the end times when Antichrist will be defeated by him. In the Bible, The Book of Daniel states:
"At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people - everyone whose name is found written in the book - will be delivered.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=22396049
So, in one foul swoop, such a baptism would automatically negate all those biblical concepts and means St. Micheal gets robbed of that final victory. 
Suddenly, there is no Antichrist, nor final showdown.....
Devil of a problem, isn't it ? | |
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| Sympathy for the Devil ?
Posted: 6/15/2009 2:02:08 PM | Welcome back, Monty.
I consider the Devil only as a metaphorical concept. "He is the Father of lies"
When did lies become children? They are the offspring of destructive minds. | |
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| Sympathy for the Devil ?
Posted: 6/15/2009 7:07:15 PM | In my opinion, the devil could never walk into a church and get baptised, as anyone who has seen a decent vampire film could tell you. Vampires must be a lot less evil than Satan, yet in those films, holy water burns them and makes 'em bubble up like toasted cheese..
I imagine something similar happening to Satan, only worse. Maybe it would even be like mixing matter and anti matter.
>>Poof<< !!!
Jus' sayin... | |
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| Sympathy for the Devil ?
Posted: 6/16/2009 5:35:48 AM | | Sounds like Dogma (the movie). Essentially, it's the same scenario as the main plot of the film. I'm not sure what the results would be, though. | |
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| Sympathy for the Devil ?
Posted: 6/16/2009 3:25:59 PM | | To the Church, Satan would never give up. It would be like Hitler surrendering. Never gonna happen. He's just too committed to his work. | |
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| Sympathy for the Devil ?
Posted: 6/16/2009 7:28:46 PM | Origional question i like it. In the early church many of the thinkers considered a problem along similar lines. Both the Alexandrian and Antiochean schools appear to have taught universalism that according to gods plan the devil will come to repentance/forgivness and the universe will ultimatly be restord to order. The Roman school with its emphsis on Law never accepted this but it did accept the Orthodoxy of many of this doctrines most significant thinkers. Clement and Origen are of note from the Alexandrian school. Theodore of Mopuestia from the Alexandrian School and through him this tradition survives strongly in the Syriac Orthodox and Church of the East. The respected names are of course tinged with one heresy or another and so the most respected Latin farther to believe this would be Gregory of Nyssa.
Ironicaly since this doctrine has clear gnostic overtones it was the former Manichean Augustines teaching and influence which lead to the rejection of universalism in the west. | |
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| Sympathy for the Devil ?
Posted: 6/18/2009 6:55:19 PM | Can you say for sure that God, when He created His Angels, He also gave them free thought, free will to do as they please, to come and go as they please, to be completely independent of His will? I don’t think so, but then who am I that I dare to postulate on the nature of God?
I doubt that an entity that IS all that there IS, which always has been forever and ever to infinity and beyond infinity and yet again beyond that infinity to an infinite number of infinities with still more infinite number of infinities that is so infinite that He is beyond the knowing of mankind whom would be insignificant to such an entity that is everywhere at the same time in the very same instant. Do you really think that such an entity would even for a pooftenth of a millisecond consider the inconsequential actions of His own creation known to us as the Devil?
Nah......don’t think so. If He did indeed create such a beast as the Devil, then that Devil can only carry out the wishes of God and no more or less. Ergo everything the Devil does is by God’s design and no other’s.
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| Sympathy for the Devil ?
Posted: 6/19/2009 12:36:37 AM | It is such an absurd situation.
Satan has free will in the Christian cosmology but continues to behave as he would in the Jewish cosmology... a programmed robot with no free will.
In Judaism, angels have no free will at all. They are personifications of force but they have no will of their own, not even the ha-satan. In the Book of Job, the impulse to do evil is personified with poetic license in the form of a character but it does not have the ability to do its own will and strictly follows the commands of the Creator.
Satan in the Christian cosmology allegedly had the free-will to rebel against God. Well if he has the free will to do that, why stick with the program. If he allegedly knows he is doomed...if he has seen an all-powerful God and knows he is but a sub-ordinate creature and knows that he is but a tool of prophecy, then why not ask for forgiveness?
It would be the height of absurdity not to. It would be a bit like a melodrama villain from central casting with even less than one dimension and not a spiritual entity that has been around since the beginning of time to not know which way the wind is blowing...
So basically, it does make you question the script more than a bit. | |
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| Sympathy for the Devil ?
Posted: 6/19/2009 7:15:01 AM |
Satan in the Christian cosmology allegedly had the free-will to rebel against God. Well if he has the free will to do that, why stick with the program. If he allegedly knows he is doomed...if he has seen an all-powerful God and knows he is but a sub-ordinate creature and knows that he is but a tool of prophecy, then why not ask for forgiveness?
It would be the height of absurdity not to. It would be a bit like a melodrama villain from central casting with even less than one dimension and not a spiritual entity that has been around since the beginning of time to not know which way the wind is blowing...
It does seem like Satan is there in Hell surrounded by all those wooden crates stamped Acme, just waiting until the day God goes "Meep Meep" , so he can hold up that little sign marked " Yikes!" ... again ?
If he "wins", he invalidates God's word.....but he can do that by "losing" just as well.
That was a rather enlightening post on the examination of the same theological problem by the early Christians, btw. Thanks for opening my eyes to it. I'll have to delve deeper into that aspect. | |
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| Sympathy for the Devil ?
Posted: 6/19/2009 10:44:58 AM | RE Msg: 9 by themadfiddler:
In Judaism, angels have no free will at all. They are personifications of force but they have no will of their own, not even the ha-satan. In the Book of Job, the impulse to do evil is personified with poetic license in the form of a character but it does not have the ability to do its own will and strictly follows the commands of the Creator. I'd just like to point out that although angels have no free will as we know it, they do have a certan amount of choice. For instance, the angels asked G-d why the Jews should be given the Torah, if G-d knew the future, and knew that they would sin.
Moses answer, by the by, was that the angels don't eat, or have sex, and so don't really have any desire to eat treif, or to have sex against the laws of the Torah, so the Torah is only appropriate to be given to people who have the ability to not keep it, and so choose to keep it.
But all in all, you are basically right, in that the angels don't have the ability to go against their orders. However, the malach hamavet, the Satan, is supposed to be punished in the future. Not for doing his job, but for being too zealous in his work, to push people to sin, far more than he was ordered to.
Satan in the Christian cosmology allegedly had the free-will to rebel against God. Well if he has the free will to do that, why stick with the program. If he allegedly knows he is doomed...if he has seen an all-powerful God and knows he is but a sub-ordinate creature and knows that he is but a tool of prophecy, then why not ask for forgiveness?
It would be the height of absurdity not to. It would be a bit like a melodrama villain from central casting with even less than one dimension and not a spiritual entity that has been around since the beginning of time to not know which way the wind is blowing...
So basically, it does make you question the script more than a bit. There is the same conflict in Judaism, except for one rule: when you ask G-d for forgiveness for a Ben Adam LaMakom, a law between man and G-d, G-d can forgive you at his will. When you ask G-d for forgiveness for a Ben Adam LaChaveiro, a law between man and his fellow, G-d doesn't forgive you until you've gotten forgiveness from the person you harmed first. So before the Satan can ask forgiveness from G-d, he's got to go to every people he was a little more zealous with than they really deserved, and ask their forgiveness. I think many might forgive him. But not all, and without all of them, the Satan is really stuffed at getting G-d to forgive him.
On the other hand, there are limits to how much you have to ask for forgiveness. But we're only human. We can only do so much. The Satan is not. So there isn't quite the reason to give the Satan as much latitude, especially when you consider just how many people are involved. | |
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| Sympathy for the Devil ?
Posted: 6/22/2009 1:17:55 AM | Sympathy for the Devil...indeed...for we are all saints AND sinners....do not look to others....decide within yourself....
Good and evil resides within ourselves....they are not separate entities...they are us....choose your path...
Humans have survived (so far) because we inherently look towards each other in a forwarding manner (so to speak)...it is the evil forces (that we all have) that sometimes band together to wreck havoc upon ourselves.
Those are the ones we must curtail.
It is within ourselves...look inward and....
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Religion (of any faith) doesn't need to teach it...it's common sense.
Free will? Well...we've always had that...question is...
What do we do with it? | |
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| Sympathy for the Devil ?
Posted: 6/22/2009 8:44:48 PM |
I mean the Monarch of Hell actually honestly stating who and what he was and sincerely asking to become a Christian.
On reading the NT, Satan was already a 'Christian' from the outset........why would he go through the effort of tempting JC if he hadn't known that he was the Messiah.
Unlike humans, Satan is not in a position where he ascribes to 'beliefs'........Satan simply "knew"!...thus, its not ever a question of believing what was already known to him.....it then becomes a matter of fact!.........hence Satan could not become anymore a 'christian' then he already is now!,.....that is because he 'knows' that JC is the Messiah, but it doesn't mean that he accepts him as his savior because JC represents everything that Satan was denied....thus if it were in anyway possible for satan to accept JC as his savior....he would instantly cease to exist as he is the consummate anti-christ (a position that he was irrevocably affixed to, and thus couldn't give up even if he wanted to!). | |
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