| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 3:02:27 AM | I've done a thread search and can't find anything pertinent to this..
A young boy that my son plays footie with was killed on Monday while cycling home from school .... It's such a waste, a lovely young lad dead at 13, his whole life ahead of him, gone in a second...
It's the third death of a youngster in my area in the last 18 months and there have been innumerable accidents resulting in serious injuries...
We have recently had traffic calming measures installed in our area, these include chicanes and mini roundabouts on every junction but no speed-bumps... These three deaths occurred AFTER those measures were put in place...
What can be done to keep our children safer on the roads but still allow road users reasonable freedom... I'm interested in safety for cyclists in particular as two of the three children killed near to me were on bicycles... Should we have dedicated cycle tracks everywhere? At 13 he was too old to use the paths but is 13 really old enough to understand the laws of the road? You are not allowed to drive legally til 17 so why be allowed on those same roads as a legitimate bicycle road user at 13?? | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 3:11:47 AM | Hmm....interesting thread.
I suppose in an ideal world, the best option would be to have cycle lanes everywhere, but I can't see that happening any time soon.
My teenage son has Aspergers so can't physically ride a bike and his road safety leaves a lot to be desired, so its not something I've had to think about yet, so this is food for thought for my younger son.
Do kids still do cycling profiency at school? I'd hope there are some classes where kids can learn cycle road safety, though I do think they should have to pass some sort of test (like a driving test) before they're allowed on the road. Then I suppose its down to us as parents to ensure our kids don't take to the roads until they have achieved this.
I've noticed kids round here that just ride out onto the road at speed without even looking to see if there's any traffic coming, so maybe its just a case of education alongside whatever precautions our local councils provide.
A small price to pay for our kids' lives, its so sad to hear about children so young dying needlessly in such a way. | |
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Travan
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Joined: 11/23/2008
Msg: 3 | |
| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 3:12:44 AM | Speed humps etc have long been known to cause accidents, they're taking them all out in many states of the US.
It's desperately sad that the child died, but tbh I think part of the problem lies in children not being taught how to handle themselves properly. They run out without thought, ride their bikes as though immune and have scant regard for motorists.
Motorists tho instead of being evasive try to frighten kids by driving close to them, and yes I've seen this happen, but that's not the answer.
Education in my opinion is partly what's lacking, but also doesn't the lack of respect for each other show up in our use of the roads, of these forums, in almost every area of life now? Children lack respect for adults and authority and adults lack respect for everything. I think tragically sad deaths like these, apart from the odd pure accidents, are a reflection of our society. | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 3:41:17 AM | VERY seldom ride my bike on the road, not just when I have my child with me...the roads are dangerous, just yesterday a car passed me and nearly knocked into me, it is sheer arrogance, not bad driving...My ex lives in London, and every day she says some cycler dies on the road...
Speed humps are a menace, if my daughter died due to an ambulance which had to slow down for these things, I would look up the councillor who ordered them and have at the least words of rudes and unpleasntness to have with him/her...
Does anyone know what by law demands that we ride on the road, or which demands we don't?....Velocipedes is one item not allowed, alongside a road is another (which presumably means paths which are not near any road is ok), and any mechanicallly propelled vehicle also, which I would again assume is those disabled cars which wheel quickly from place to place on the pavements...so why is there no police stopping them?
I get it, instead of encouraging us to cycle, the government really don't want us on bikes, they want us driving big gas guzzlers as they bring in revenue... | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 3:58:55 AM | | Where i am we have a lot of cycle paths some seem to be in the daftest places and end just before major junctions, i agree that some sort of education is needed on all road users parts so that we can all try and show some consideration. I spent many years as a traffic patrol officer and have seen the results of that moments inattention, i freely admit that i have been as guilty of this as most people, its down to all of us to try and show the young how it should be done. Road safety should be taught as soon as possible in schools and at home. | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 4:04:39 AM | My lad was knocked off his bike a few months ago, he admits it was his fault he was on the pavement and went back into the road to go around some pedestrians without even looking, straight into the path of a car, he's was lucky to get away with bruising, his trousers were ripped to shreds, his bike mangled and his school bag got caught up in the wheel of the car, i still shudder when i think about it, it's a miracle he's still alive.
In an ideal world we would have cycle lanes everywhere but i think a lot of it is down to kids just not having a sense of their own mortality, being easily distracted etc etc. I'm not sure what the answer is or if there even is an answer accidents happen unfortunately. | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 4:07:49 AM | when i was a kid i used to ride my bike on the road down the big hill to Erith using no hands and my feet on the handlebars and no helmet !! ...
other than not letting kids ride on the road i don't think there is a safe solution ... there are a lot more cars on the road now than when i used to ride a bike ...
buy then it's not just pushbikes that are in danger ... a driver who wasn't paying attention to what she was doing pulled out in front of my nephews friend at the weekend, his motorbike hit the car and his back is now broken .. he may never walk again,.
maybe the attention should also be on educating car drivers .... | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 4:38:24 AM | The roads are safe for children who are safe.
Teach them how to live in the real world not a fantasy/bygone one. mind you, plenty of kids got run over by horse drawn carts in cities.
He's plenty old enough to understand the rules of the road at 13 - whether he has the maturity and skill to do so is another thing. When those puberty hormones set in males and females make some dumb decisions.
None of us have right to life and whilst all these road deaths are a terrible waste of life, many are simply because people make poor choices. Don't get to learn how to judge speed indoors.
Take all these retards letting their kids drive these mini motorbikes and bikes on their local playing fields/streets instead of taking them out in the country and people that spend far too much time teaching their kids to be afraid of th world instead of developing the skill and experiences to make better choices. | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 4:39:49 AM | Easiest ways of making roads safer would be to ban all cars. Problem solved.
Oh! What do you mean, that solution isn't politically acceptable?
Ok, some other suggestions.
How about really enforcing the speed limits? They are largely ignored or treated as guidelines by almost everybody.
How about fitting ALL vehicles with speed- limiters, so they cannot travel faster than the speed limits?
How about treating every incident involving a car as real crime? Being charged with possessing an offensive weapon, ie. a 6 ton lump of metal moving very fast.
How about making driving bans permanent?
How about making people re-take their driving test every 5 years?
How about everyone that reads this, makes a concious effort to drive more slowly and more carefully tomorrow? Start the effort with the one person that you know you can change, yourself.
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 5:00:19 AM | I agree with what Travan said about teaching respect for others, I think people nowadays are far too self centred and don't think of the consequences of their actions, that's adults and children alike.
I've just started letting my 14 year old son walk a bit further, crossing more dangerous roads and one of the things I've stressed to him is that its not just you that needs protecting, but other people too. He tends to leap around a bit close to the kerb so I've told him to stand at least 2 feet away and try to keep still, explaining that his behaviour might make a motorist "think" he's about to run out onto the road and thereby cause an accident.
The problem is that a lot of the parents of these kids are no better themselves. There's a guy round here with one of those hairdryer scooters who quite often bombs down the wrong side of the road with a little baby in one arm and steering with the other. There's just no helping some people, which is why its maybe something that needs addressing at school. | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 5:07:20 AM | | When I last lived in Scotland, it was in the country, my daughter would look first before crossing the very empty road...Contrast that with my mate who used to come with his daughter,she would just run out over the road without looking, and she came from the city....My poor mate, he was not the sharpest knife in the drawer... | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 5:10:08 AM | I'm a traffic engineer by profession and it's very interesting to see the responses here. Perceived safety and actual safety are two different things. I've done a lot of work and research on shared spaces which involves removing all roadmarkings and signs, having the footway and road at the same level. It is only applicable in certain areas (like residential and town centres) but evidence from holland, elsewhere in europe and now here shows that it is safer than normal roads.
The idea is 'safety through danger'. As the pioneer of it Hans Mondermann said with regards to the road "the worst thing you can is make people feel safe". It's counter intuitive and very hard to get your head a round but it works | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 5:17:10 AM | I just don't understand the mentality of those who decided that the driver of a car has to be 17 years of age before being mentally capable of handling such responsibility(because it's hardly physical limitation that the minimum age factor is based upon is it), yet a child of 10 by LAW is deemed mentally capable of doing precisely the same thing...
Cycling on footways (a pavement at the side of a carriageway) is prohibited by Section 72 of the Highway Act 1835, amended by Section 85(1) of the Local Government Act 1888. This is punishable by a fixed penalty notice of £30 under Section 51 and Schedule 3 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.
According to the Department for Transport (DfT), the maximum fine for cycling on the pavement from the courts is £500. However it is more usually enforced by way of the Fixed Penalty Notice procedure (FPN) which carries a £30 fine if pleading guilty. However, there is a view that the FPN can only be issued to those over 16.
"The DfT view, from discussions with Home Office, is that the law applies to all but the police can show discretion to younger children cycling on the pavement for whom cycling on the road would not be a safe option."
The age of criminal responsibility is 10 so, technically, only children below this age can cycle on pavements without fear of redress.
If a child of ten is expected to understand and abide by road law for the purpose of riding a bicycle, then it stands to reason that they should also be legally allowed to use powered transport on those very same roads... Which of course, is ludicrous!!!
We (generic 'we', not specific posters to this thread 'we') are expecting children to be as road aware and as responsible as adults, yet we wouldn't ever allow them to drive a car or motorbike... It's hypocrisy at its moronic best... | |
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Travan
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Joined: 11/23/2008
Msg: 14 | |
| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 5:32:50 AM |
If a child of ten is expected to understand and abide by road law for the purpose of riding a bicycle, then it stands to reason that they should also be legally allowed to use powered transport on those very same roads... Which of course, is ludicrous!!!
We (generic 'we', not specific posters to this thread 'we') are expecting children to be as road aware and as responsible as adults, yet we wouldn't ever allow them to drive a car or motorbike... It's hypocrisy at its moronic best...
Sorry, a huge amount of sophistry involved here.
Firstly, who said a child of ten by law is deemed mentally capable of handling the responsiblity of driving a car?
Secondly, why does it stand to reason that they should also be allowed to legally use powered transport? Noone minds kids on bikes on the pavements, as long as they know not to go to near the road and cross in designated places. I think that's a fair enough expectation to place on most kids.
Thirdly, I expect children to respect that fact that generally speaking, roads are dangerous so keep off em. What's hard about that? We do on foot., no different on a bike.
Kids are incredibly disrespectful in general toward road traffic and that is a major cause of accidents.
Bad driving is anotehr major cause of accidents. Not speed, speed doesn't kill within certain parameters, bad driving does.
Most accidents are caused or involve young people. Google the stats.
We need better education and a bit more respect for all, but we're not liekly to get either so we have to face the sad deaths each year that are a result of not facing up to the problem properly. | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 5:38:43 AM | where i live they have loads of cycle lanes but nobody uses them they actually ride outside them forcing the traffic to back up annoying the drivers who cant get past.
maybe if they made it law that if there is a cycle lane and you are riding a bike you have to use it. cyclists seem not to obey the highway code then if they get run over the driver always gets the blame. i have experienced this mainly in cyclists not giving way going the wrong way round on roundabouts riding across the street without looking riding along the motorway and the police do nothing to them yet the motorist gets the blame and the traffic calming obstacles. im not saying get rid of cyclists just make them obey the laws like drivers have to. | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 5:38:49 AM | It is the law of the road I am referring to here Travan... We expect these children to adhere to and understand the Highway code and the laws that all road users should abide by... Therefor using that logic, a child of ten (who is deemed old enough to understand and abide by those laws) should also be considered old enough to use a powered vehicle safely , sensibly and legally .. ??? I don't believe for an instant a child should drive a powered vehicle and my reason for using that as an example is to show just how insane it is to expect a child of that age to be able use a highway properly...
Also
Thirdly, I expect children to respect that fact that generally speaking, roads are dangerous so keep off em. What's hard about that? We do on foot., no different on a bike.
Kids are incredibly disrespectful in general toward road traffic and that is a major cause of accidents.
The law states otherwise... You are NOT allowed to cycle on the footpath, no ifs no buts... You cycle on the pavement, you are breaking the law... So whatever you expect children to respect, the law insists they use the road!! | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 5:42:57 AM | maybe we should go to holland and see how they do it over there
i lost count of the amount of times i was nearly ran over by a push bike on a trip to amsterdam ! | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 5:58:32 AM | It's easy to make the roads safer for our children.
Never walk them, or expect them to walk, anywhere. Ever. Even if they live 100 metres from the school. because everyone knows that most accidents happen within half a mile of the home.
Encourage them never to go out, and instead provide them with endless computers and games consoles, their own TV, and a mobile phone.
No matter what the child does, and irrespective of whether they have actually done something socially unacceptable, always defend them to the last, preferably blaming others (or the latest fashionable label-syndrome) for their behaviour. This will ensure that they believe they are untouchable, and immune to everything.
If, despite all your efforts, they do choose to go out, never concern yourself with where they are, and what they are doing, never give them any advice about safety, crossing roads, staying away from fast moving traffic etc etc, but ensure that they view every person over the age of 20 as a potential paedo.
In the unlikely event that your child is ever involved in a minor and non-injurious collision with a motor vehicle. Sue, sue sue.
Eventually motor vehicle drivers will come to realise that how hazardous sharing the road with children is , and simply take a train instead. | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 7:35:20 AM | I'm with Roger_Roger on this one.
Remove the barriers and let people think for themselves.
It doesn't help either that car drivers are cosseted inside their steel cages , surrounded by airbags, active safety systems, crumple zones, surround sound stereo systems abs/tcs etc etc etc to the point they foregt whats going on outside. Doesn't matter if they hit someone they'll be ok
Riding a motorbike regularly makes you far more aware of whats going on around you because if anything goes wrong then you're as likely to get hurt as say a pedestrian.
eg if little Johnny runs out in front of a car then there's a good chance he'll (sadly) become another statistic but the car will be OK. If he runs out in front of the bike chances are that he may well not get hit (smaller frontal area), if he does the mass hitting him will be lower giving a better survival chance but there's also a damned good chance that I'm going to end up sliding down the road possibly with (in my case) 650lb of bike on top of me!!
Which scenario is going to keep you as road user on your toes more? | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 7:48:01 AM |
where i live they have loads of cycle lanes but nobody uses them they actually ride outside them forcing the traffic to back up annoying the drivers who cant get past. Thats usually becuase the drains are sunken meaning it's dangerous to ride next to the kerb for a cyclist | |
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csi8
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Joined: 12/28/2008
Msg: 21 | |
| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 8:19:49 AM | it's interesting, you make no mention of whether the child was riding responsibly, had done the cycling proficiency test [yes it still around] wore a helmet, high vis jacket or bands
round here we've found that traffic calming measures actually give the kids the false impression that theyre safer, so they weave in and out the chicanes, skateboard over the bumps and use mini roundabouts as crossing points
parnts, not drivers, should be taking responsibilty for children on the road, traffic sense, responsibilty and maturity doesnt come with age, but with development and guidance. if your unsure of your childs safety, then dont let him ride in the streets
just cos the law says 10, doesnt mean we, as parents, should
simples | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 8:40:16 AM | This is the thing, these deaths have occurred SINCE the traffic calming measures were put into place... I have no idea if he was wearing a helmet... I was surprised at the extent of his injuries, taking lack of speed into consideration, so I would imagine not...
I wouldn't lay the blame for this specific incident on either the driver, or the child... Apparently, according to eye witnesses it was just one of those things, the boy heading down the hill (he'd just turned the corner and was at the top of the hill,so no he wasn't going very quickly) and moving into the road to avoid a parked vehicle, the woman driving up the road and moving to avoid a parked vehicle also...
I also agree that between the ages of 9 and 23 you seem to become invulnerable, well in your own mind and safety is rarely if ever thought about...
Cargy, I know your post is meant to be sarcastic but I really feel that way after a death so close to home, both figuratively and literally... I don't want my son dead.... I won't stop him from going out, I won't smother him, or wrap him in cotton wool but it doesn't mean to say I have to be happy about it... When you've sat and chatted and laughed and eaten with a child who's died, they stop being flowers at the side of the road or a statistic and everything hits home at just how fragile life really is.. | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 10:35:00 AM | so how to reduce/stop road accidents its a minefield so many pros and cons.
i dont think speed bumps work as people slow down to go over them and then put there foot down till they have to slow for the next road hump.
have proper cycle lanes sepaerated by a kerb from the road not the useless painted lanes,there just a cheap way of getting money/grants from europe.
better protective clothing for cyclists ,its available for motorcyclists so why not for a cyclist??
redusing speed limits has little effect on the ammount off accidents but increases the chance of survival.
last but not least and this really gets my back up, teach people to drive/control a vehicle not how to pass a driving test,its ok passing the test but car control etc when it all goes wrong should be taught. | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 10:56:02 AM | Thats usually becuase the drains are sunken meaning it's dangerous to ride next to the kerb for a cyclist
these are wide cycle lanes most of which are new and are actually on the pavement and the drains are in the roads | |
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| How can we make roads safer for our children...
Posted: 6/17/2009 11:15:17 AM | roads are for cars.
not 10 year olds on a bike.
the speed calming measures are usually there for a reason, and that is usually that there are pedestrians in the area.
I appreciate that the 10 year olds are not allowed on the footpath... there is a reason for that, pedestrians go there too.
I think its a bit of a leap of faith to think that if they are legally disallowed form being on the footpath they should, by default, be on the road.
So, if the kids cant ride on a footpath or a road, then they should on designated cyclepaths.. parks... fields...
I cant agree that there should be a furore against motorists, motorists pay to use the roads (and how!).
Sad story, and tragic, but I think we have to realise roads are dangerous.
I cant see how the parents can be to blame either, thats a little unfair too.. but saying that, we would hope that the parents could help by the kids being helped to go somewhere safe for their fun. | |
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