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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 6/20/2009 11:23:18 AM | There wasn't really an appropriate forum to stick this in, so here I am. I'm in a situation where there really isn't any sage advice to be found. Here goes:
My best friend is a man, I am a woman. We're both 29. We met because of a gym he started, and over time, I've become partners with him on the gym. He also runs an event production company that, by nature of our working relationship and friendship, I tend to help him helm when it gets to be too much for one person. It's very cool because we have complimentary skills and the business partnership works very well for us. On top of that, we have a wonderful relationship with good communication, productive disagreement skills, and truly unconditional love and support. We go on vacations together regularly (even when he has a girlfriend, and they never seem to mind too much), and I have a great time with him. I always thought to myself, "Ha ha! Here we have a successful platonic opposite-sex relationship!" He's been in a relationship with a woman for two years who recently moved away to pursue a different life and broke up with him. I have managed to stay mostly single most of the time I've known him (about six years).
I think part of the reason we were solidly platonic is that he is Orthodox Jewish. I am partly Jewish, but raised Catholic, and don't avow to anything anymore. Having Orthodox family meant I knew what I would be getting into if we tried anything and did not. I've watched his relationships come and go, with that being a major issue (we live somewhere where is probably the only practicing Jew in town) for him. I've always been a fan of theology and such, I've helped him celebrate his religion, and it's opened my heart to it more than in the past. I don't know that he knows that, but it's there.
So, anyway, once he was single again, I started to notice him flirting with me and spending more time leaning on me. Because I love him absolutely and he has always been there for me, I supported him as much as I could, but in turn, it's gotten to a point where we are inseparable. He is at my house every night for dinner, stays late, then goes home. We have all the same interests/hobbies/values/life goals, so it's very simple and easy to have this inseparable thing going on.
Of course, over time I started to realize that our dynamic had shifted and took about a month to process it to the point where I realized that neither one of us is emotionally available for any other person, and because our lives are so intertwined at this point (not a bad thing, I think), we either needed to try on a relationship or I needed a lot more space (which is sad, as he's my best friend, but you get the picture).
I finally got the courage up to tell him this last week, and he looked pretty shocked. There've been plenty of people suggesting that we were together so for him to not have processed the ramifications of that was a little interesting to me (he's a self-aware guy), but I basically told him what I have told you. I cited examples where he had overreacted or acted strange and I honestly wanted to know where that was coming from (best example is his shouting, "You're not my girlfriend!" in a grocery store in response to my telling him on our future backing packing trip I would not be his "girl friend he carries things for." Two of our friends were there who clearly knew we weren't a couple, and since we haven't so much as held hands, I am pretty sure I know I am not his girlfriend, too .. . anyway) No mention of my personal feelings, but just that. I told him he didn't have to have a response right away, but he did need to think about it, because I spent a month trying to figure out where I stand and had lost sleep over it. Finally, he told me, "I love you, but I'm not in love with you." To which I said, "That's fine, but please think about how to handle this" and left him.
Now thinking that was the end of our bestfriendship, I was pretty sad the next day, until he couldn't stay away from me (he calls four or five times a day - sometimes personal, sometime business, and usually drops by), and he came by, followed me into my room looking pretty melancholy, asked how I was feeling ("fine"), and said, "About last night, I don't think we should try, because things could blow up." I just told him to keep thinking, and then he started telling me about all the little nuances of his day and seemed like he wanted to hang around for dinner, but the invite was not extended.
And then . . . that was that. It's as if I never had the conversation with him. He's finding ways to be over here as much as possible, and when he finds out I am doing something, he whines a little about wanting to do it, too, or invites himself along, assuming I'll be picking him up or what have you. I'm crashing one of my best friends' little sister's weddings tonight and he has his suit laid out for it, even though I'm not sure if it's appropriate to crash a wedding with a date. Anyway, I am actively trying to deinvest, and he's just staying as it is. I don't know whether to give him more time to ponder, readress the issue, or what.
Historically, I've never had the courage to bring up things like this, so it was difficult the first time. This guy is the best man I know and I don't regret the investment of time and emotion I've put into him, but he has jokingly told people that we are "platonic life partners" which is something I never signed up for. Both of us want kids and a spouse one day (and sooner, rather than later) and platonic life partnership precludes that if we ever want a similar relationship with someone else, I think.
So what say you? Thanks for reading. | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 6/20/2009 11:33:10 AM | Well, since you already put everything "out there", it should be easier to deal with the situation...
A single guy and girl can't be close one-on-one purely-platonic friends for very long. Sorry. Sure, there can be exceptions, but that's usually one person being completely out of the league of the other, and them both knowing that (and everyone else in the room) at first glance. And of course, if the guy is gay, or if he's a male slut, and the girl is a goody-goody, etc. Everyone thinks they're the exception until something gives.
Just tell him, "Hey, I'm attracted to you, I like you, but it's weird if we spend TOO much time together like BFFs. We're the opposite sex and there's sexual tension, so... unless we go down the path to date and all that, we should definitely not hang out all the time, us both being single."
Although not emotionally simple for you, I think it's a pretty simple concept to understand. | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 6/20/2009 11:33:47 AM | | OP, rent the movie "When Harry met Sally", and watch it together. Then talk about it afterwards, and see where it goes. | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 6/20/2009 11:38:34 AM | Azure, that's pretty much what I did, exactly, without the ultimatum.
It's the fact that he's not doing ANYTHING that's freaking me out. I don't know whether I should be giving him more time to process, or if I should just call a spade a spade and slap that ultimatum on him.
It took me about a month to really work everything out, the what ifs and the possible scenarios, and such, so I didn't want to force him to come out with a solution right then without having had that luxury, but his not really respecting my choice to do stuff without him is pretty weird. As I said, he's usually pretty sensitive to my needs and self-aware, so I don't know WHAT the hell he's doing. And normally I would just talk to him about it, but I'm trying to play this hand skillfully, as the stakes are high. | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 6/20/2009 11:49:22 AM | How funny it is when our brains tries to add logic to what our heart feels.
Wished they would work together more, instead of seperately.
Your brain has rationalized this isn't gonna work even though you're in love with him.
He obviously has feelings for you and refuses to rationalize or think it thru.
If you're not a match, keep your distance.
You don't have to be so available if you truly don't want to be.
But you are cus you hope he'll overlook all the long odds and make the leap.
Maybe he would....
if you're not so available....
...and he has to decide whether he can live with that void.
My advice is no more talking.
alot more walking.
and give him a month to "process" | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 6/20/2009 1:23:51 PM | He's not making a choice, so you have to. What do you want?
Both of you are thinking and talking, but neither of you are 'doing'. And its way past that time to do something.
If its a relationship you want and he's over there every night, come to the dinner table naked, and be receptive to anything he might want to do. His reaction will tell you.
If its the other way, then tell him you're dating someone else and date someone else --if its been 6 years, you need to darling. Sounds like you've been waiting for him, and its decision time. | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 6/20/2009 1:50:25 PM | Nah, I am just a bit of a permasingle: small town; small dating pool of people my age; ambitious, intimidating girl. Lots of dates, not many were compatible. Dating seems a lot easier for other people than me . . . or i probably would not be in this mess.
Anyway, I think the above poster is most right - I think it's probably just my job to give it time. I'm not into games. | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 6/20/2009 4:12:13 PM | He said "I love you but I'm not IN love with you"... basically that means you came on pretty strong about your feelings with him, and he was intimidated... or he just isn't into you.
It's not an ultimatum about anything I suggested. Just DON'T hang out with each other THAT much as "play friends" when Person A likes Person B, but Person B doesn't like Person A. Case closed, right? Why torture yourself?
My suggestion: Tell him you guys shouldn't be, and whether he's thinking it over or knows he doesn't want to date, whatever the case may be, don't hang out all the time. I know that's heart breaking because you're so into him, but you're just torturing yourself and giving him the okay to do that! | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 6/20/2009 4:20:05 PM | Just wondering, OP, if you're sure that he's heterosexual?
You're a really good looking woman. He seems to enjoy spending a lot of time with you, and being best friends. He "loves" you as a friend, and you seem to have made your "availability" obvious. So.....it's not as if he's "seeing" other women, ( or men either, for that matter). He may be giving you all that's possible for him. Some people are asexual.
In fact, you having been exclusively spending time with him for 6 years, would indicate that you don't have that strong a sexual need either. So, what's this about? Is it that you want to feel more "secure" with the connection, a sudden realization that you want children, or something else? | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 6/20/2009 4:45:47 PM | I don't know that I don't have a strong sexual need, I just have very good will power and was raised to really not "give it up" unless I felt a powerful connection. Vibrators exist for a reason, right? :)
I think it's more about me coming into my own, getting less insecure about life, knowing what I want, and also having been in this position before (what? Oh yeah, I make excellent guy friends who are not into me and then have no problem hooking up with other girls yet keeping me around - my social circle is largely men) and not wanting it to go down that road now that I'm aware it is. It's only recently that I've felt like a "really good looking woman" - before that I was sure I was not and my confidence was pretty low, attracted only sleezes or very very mild guys (I am not a mild personality). | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 6/20/2009 4:46:59 PM | | Azure, that's precisely what I did, I'm not sure where our communication is breaking down. I told him exactly that and then he isn't respecting it. | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 6/20/2009 7:02:54 PM | I agree --its go time. Maybe go out together -- get out of the house and party with each other. Act like you've had too much to drink and let him take you home and attack him in the car. If he's not 'asexual' he'll be into it.
Once that barrier is broken, then the real talking would begin. As long as you two dance around each other, nothing will be resolved.
Take some of that control you have and do it -- I bet everyone that knows you both are waiting for it to happen, and your control is doing no good by now.
Have fun with it--- | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 6/20/2009 7:06:28 PM | well, I would just go for it already....for practical reasons, even.
I mean, think of the money you're going to save on batteries alone.
aigh't, I'm kiddin' you.
I lived this situation you are in....
my last longest relationship lasted about six years .
The first two of which....we were friends. Did everything together, including remodeling a couple of houses., movies, hikes, dinner, sharing....but...we were platonic friends, good friends, the kind you can count on ...friends.
I mean, I'm sure people 'thought' we were a couple, but we honestly just enjoyed the friendship. I mean, I went out with women, she dated guys...and we would talk about that..compare notes....ehhhh....that one was too pushy, this one was too waffling...and on, and on.
The story isn't quite the same as yours, for we didn't really talk it to death and 'ask' one another to decide one way or another....I just remember, we were hanging out at her house one night , had a great dinner, it was a warm summer night....we just looked at each other and it was like...My God...we love each other. It was pretty magical, I must say.
We went on in a love relationship for years...but maintained separate residences...no moving in talk was brought up.....
Now, the odd thing is...once you amp it up....different dynamics come into play. Things were more 'personal'.....the usual brigade of issues surfaces.....jealousy, pride, ego, I suppose....the disappointment factor....the little things we used to 'disagree' on as friends suddenly grew into large monsters in the room. Now, I'm not saying it was just bad....because it wasn't, for the most part....
But, there were break ups, then getting back together...breaking up, then making up...you do what you do until you just get friggin' tired of doing it. Eventually, it was exhausting and overwhelming...for the both of us, I believe...and we called it to a final ending....
well, so that was a nice little story Kimbo...any point to it, you hoo haaa?
ummm..Yes, actually..there is a rather large point....It's a helluva lot more difficult to just go 'back' to being friends than it is to just 'be' friends.
We both often wonder, what if we never kicked it up. We'd still be hanging out and enjoying the company , I'm sure of that., In many ways, I miss my little friend....and she misses me.....but we don't miss the relationship. Is that fcuked, or what??? 
Sometimes things are working exactly as they are supposed to be working. Universe Knows. It's usually when we put our little hands in to stir up the plan, that it can go array. Just the amount of talking you are doing around this issue, I gotta tell you...it's exhausting to listen to,
I wish you the best ..no matter what you both decide,,,but please be aware of one thing...the dynamics 'will change'. You can take that one to the bank , girl. Even if you think.."Nah..we can handle the changes and roll with it".
Well...you might . That's the roll of the dice,
You also might lose the best friend ya already have.
good luck
Kimbo | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 6/21/2009 10:11:32 AM | This is a funny story. Sometimes people really do make things way too complicated. You guys are obviously compatible, communicate well, actually, spend much of your time together, are not dating others. Sounds very much like you love eachother very much. In fact you act like on old happily married couple, or at least young married couple, in every way except you don't live together, sleep together.
I'm trying to figure out why you aren't already married. I suppose it's possible that he is gay though that doesn't seem to be true since you said he has had girl friends. Perhaps his family objects, you not being an orthodox Jew. He himself can't be all that observant or he wouldn't even allow himself to be alone with you. If he is observant, he normally would already be married at hie age. It's not only custom, it's the first commandment in the Bible. No not one of the 10, but rather the first mentioned in the text, go forth be fruitful and multiply ...
It isn't necessary or even desirable to fall in love to marry. The Hollywood thing, some enchanted evening, is a brief bout of temporary madness. It can bring people together who are basically unsuited for each other. It can be enjoyable or painful depending on the circumstances.
I don't know what to suggest. It does sound a bit like when Harry Met Sally though, doesn't it? Have you tried pushing the physical a bit? Have you ever even kissed him? Of course as I remember Harry and Sally even moved in together for a while and found it didn't work then. You both just have to finally take the chance and let down the barriers. Having a long term successful relationship is a matter of choice too. Love is largely a choice and a behavior. It's life sustaining and life enhancing. Were I you I'd push the boundries a bit more and certainly not drop it. | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 6/21/2009 10:02:09 PM |
Azure, that's precisely what I did, I'm not sure where our communication is breaking down. I told him exactly that and then he isn't respecting it.
You remind him! If he's coming over, whether it be texting you, calling you, or showing up on your doorstep without warning, you respond -instantly- with, "Uhhh, we shouldn't be hanging out that much as platonic buddies, that's weird. You do remember the talk, right? Unless we're going to date, and you know how I've felt, we shouldn't be buddied up."
If he plays dumb about it and/or calls you out on making a big deal out of something small, just tell him you're not, and that it's a very simple simple concept. Follow that with a simple question, "If you were falling for some girl you felt you had a connection with, and she told you she wasn't interested, therefore, being just friends, would you want to hang out with her all the time? I'd tell any girl or guy friend not to for a good while, because it's just emotionally uncomfortable." | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 6/22/2009 12:39:26 AM | You guys have some great stories/relations/advice. Thank you for sharing them with me.
Still at an impasse. I've kind of decided to let things be for a while. He is thinking, and honestly, our relationship is so complicated (best friends/business partners/jew-gentile) that it's not something we can just jump into like a normal situation, you know? I do believe it needs to be considered. The person who said it's largely choice, I think that's right in this situation. | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 7/1/2009 12:36:36 PM | Ok, here's my synopsis:
You gave him two choices.
A. Make it more than platonic, which means he needs to take you on a date, kiss you, say something romantic.... or simply say, "Let's try this dating thing." Whatever the case, he needs to take some kind of action on plan A.
B. If he doesn't want plan A, he has to take this second option, which is giving you a lot more space. This is not always the case, but it is something you said you needed if you weren't going to date him.
He needs to choose A or B.
If he chooses the next option... you have to decide if you are ok with that or part ways...
C. Keep on being close to you as a platonic partner.
My advice is that the friendship is taking on very similar traits to a romantic relationship, minus the physical affection, etc.... Option C is kind of a game of pretend in all reality, and he, and quite possibly you, are filling your loneliness with each other's friendship, while in truth you probably want more from him, and he needs more from somebody, though maybe that person is not you (hence his reluctance to take option A).
So, in the end, he is a lonely friend who values your close friendship and doesn't want to mess things up, although he may have thoughts of being with you romantically. I can respect that, but at the same time, you both have to be ok with it. If you are not ok with it, he has to choose A or B, as you expressed to him already. Right now you are still only friends, as it doesn't matter what is in both your heads, but what action has been taken in the relationship. | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 7/1/2009 2:18:43 PM | | It seems like you're his best friend, partner, just about everything, but he still wants his freedom to meet someone else. He has a lot to lose and he knows that. I think he is just coasting, doesn't know what to do so is not thinking about it, quite the opposite. He's just carrying on as normal and hoping the issue will resolve itself. I don't think he will suddenly decide he's in love with you but then he doesn't get chance to miss you. Unless you want to continue in this platonic partner role for ever, you'd need to enforce the space. How can you meet someone else whilst you are living with him effectively? I know you say there are not any suitable men nearby but you deserve somone who is offering you a full relationship. This kind of relationship can undermine self-esteem. It's not fair of him to ignore your request for space. If he doesn't want a romantic relationship then he should at least allow you the time and space to form relationships elsewhere. I'm not saying he should disappear, but recognise that you need more than him and not assume so much of your time. I think he's being selfish here. | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 7/1/2009 5:29:41 PM | The only reason that I would think you would have to 'deinvest' would be because
you had already mentally and emotionally crossed the friendship line. I think it's great that you were able to talk with him about it, and great that he gave you his answer. I think that your friendship is too valuable to change it in any way.
You just need to transition from the personal side of this back to the platonic.
May I suggest compartmentalizing the more-than-a-friendship hopes that were dashed and setting it aside for awhile and readjusting to the friendship?
Over time, the positive energies of the friendship will return , and you can focus on your personal life in the meantime.
"How funny it is when our brains tries to add logic to what our heart feels.
Wished they would work together more, instead of seperately."
A beautiful thought-- it would be great if it worked this way.
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 7/1/2009 5:44:29 PM | He told you clearly
"About last night, I don't think we should try, because things could blow up."
And since you appeared agreeable, he's continuing with the usual platonic relationship.
You certainly did "sign up for" "platonic life partners" if you've continued a relationship with him for six years to the exclusion of meeting anyone else.
If you are "actively trying to deinvest" then tell him you cann't continue the friendship. | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 7/1/2009 6:12:47 PM | | My advice is to put yourself out there and start dating. Cut back on the time you spend with him. The guy wants to stay business partners. | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 7/2/2009 9:49:03 PM | I think your advice was very insightful Kimbo.
Listen to him. It's always best to take advice from someone who's been there!
Yoster | |
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| Friends, more than friends, what?
Posted: 7/3/2009 2:13:29 PM | From what JChristian said, his option C is pure-bred drama in your situation. It's pretty harmless for a matter of days, considering you've always had feelings for him, but you'll just end up going thru the same experience as being strung along... and after much more than mere days goes by (procrastination), it will build up and you'll be far more frustrated than you should have been.
Here's the thing... it doesn't matter how "complicated" the situation is between you too. It honestly isn't. If you two are joined at the hip spending all your work & free time together, the only difference is that you are on an intimate level or platonic. If you're spending all that time together in Option C, you're not making it less complicated -- you're making things more complicated. You can't help feelings, so feelings alone will complicate matters regardless whether you two kiss, makeout, roll in the hay, etc etc. Therefore, no need to play games. Does he have those feelings and is willing to go down the "going out" route with you? If not, don't spend much (if any) of your free time together if you do have built up feelings... you guys already are around each other in reference to work as it is and that work environment makes it easier to roll with. | |
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