| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 6/29/2009 12:10:17 PM | My question is very simple in phrasing, yet very difficult to answer. I am not looking for a debate over forms of government, as Alexander Pope said "Only fools quibble over forms of government, history has a good thing to say about all of them..." I am only:) asking for peoples views on what their ideal government would be. No long treatises on utopias, they tend to be the same vision and the same impracticality. Just, thoughts on what you feel would be ideal.
That being said, here is my thoughts on Democracy.
It is an interesting form of government. It allows for chicanery, and influence, as well as the very real possibility to enforce your will upon society (this is the reason I think so many people like the idea...). It also tends to be the most brilliant and shining as well as short lived form of government. If you look through history, you will see that all Democracies end in a tyrany. It is impossible not to. The basic route to power in a Democracy is eloquence and persuasion. Humans have certain psychological factors that make them easily persuaded to give over absolute power to a tyrant. All the would-be tyrant needs is a platform to gain election, and then through a silver tongue can take almost unlimited authority. If you doubt this, look at what the office of President in the USA has become compared to what it was supposed to be as set in the constitution...
The only three "Democarcies" that have ever worked were: Athens, The Dutch, and Switzerland. If you look at these examples however, you wuickly realise that they were not Democracies, but closer to Republics. However, these Democracies in their time have prodused a cultural flourescence that is hard to rival. This being said, these high points in human history have all been eclipsed by the cultural flouresence of depots, monarchs, and oligarchs. What is the 16th century Dutch hegemony in europe compard to the Tang dynasty in Chin? Can you really compare the brilliance of Athens to the reign of Louis the XIV or Wiemar under Karl Augustus? The Enlightenment was purely a function of absolutism. Not to metion the brilliance of Islam under the Bhagdad caliphate or the Moguls, the Renassaince under the petty lords of the Itallian boot, or the wonders of Chandraguptic India.
I am a freak for culture, it is the only point of being a human as far as I am concerned, and I must say that with all of it's brilliance, Democracy is anti-thetical to my enjoyment of life. Please I would like to here your thoughts. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 6/29/2009 12:31:23 PM | This question is a bit contradictory since it's difficult to discuss what you think is the best govt without also discussing what you think is wrong with the rest of them, but I'll try...
I think the best form of govt is the enlightened dictatorship (aka philosopher king). Since the power is concentrated into one set of hands, it's easy to accomplish what needs to be done, and there is little room for corruption since nobody but the king has enough power to do much damage. It's not a perfect govt though (no such thing exists), there's two flaws with it. The first is just choosing the "enlightened philosopher" in the first place, how do you know they'll be a good leader? The second problem is that even with the greatest king ever (even more so actually), within a few generations their heirs will be giant douchebags who will ruin everything. The solution to the second problem is to make it non-hereditary, but that just exasperates the first problem. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 6/29/2009 12:33:06 PM | | I find myself 'doing a little dance' infront of a man called Jacque Fresco. I know that it is 'exactly' what you are not looking for in a reply and I stand here blindfolded (ready to be shot down:)... I like the view of the world through his eyes. He's a futurist. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 6/29/2009 12:40:26 PM | The problem with the question is that there are so few choices. Having an enlightened dictatorship is fine, until philosopher king dies and his idiot, self-absorbed son or daughter takes over and all things go for sh!t. As for the other options, far too much power is given to one person.
Democracy, gives us at least a certain amount of choice in the kind of government we have, how it functions and what its priorities are. And, you have the freedom to express displeasure if government isn't doing what you think it should.
Until someone comes up with a better choice, then that would be my choice. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 6/29/2009 3:10:05 PM | No...
But it's the best system we've got at the moment.
I would put Democracy down as "work in progress" 'cos it sure needs a few tweaks here and there so that the true will of the people is always heard, no matter what...
However saying that, even if we did have the perfect Democracy but people were, by and large, quite uneducated and ignorant, then the will of the people could result in a lot of bad things happening.
I'm all up for Freedom of course... But freedom also requires responsibility. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 6/29/2009 4:12:44 PM |
The US is not a democracy - it is a republic - there's a huge difference.
This has been argued to death in another thread. The republic is a form of representative democracy. It is not a pure democracy, but nonetheless it is a form of democracy.
Republic: /r?'p?bl?k/
–noun
1. a state in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them.
2. any body of persons viewed as a commonwealth.
3. a state in which the head of government is not a monarch or other hereditary head of state.
4. (initial capital letter) any of the five periods of republican government in France. Compare First Republic, Second Republic, Third Republic, Fourth Republic, Fifth Republic.
5. (initial capital letter, italics) a philosophical dialogue (4th century b.c.) by Plato dealing with the composition and structure of the ideal state.
As was pointed out at around post 32 of this thread:
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/12561180datingPostpage2.aspx
but by post 36 it is summarized fully in the description by mungojoe from which I quote:
Direct democracy, classically termed pure democracy, is a political system where the people vote on government decisions, such as questions of whether to approve or reject various laws. It is called direct because the power of making decisions is exercised by the people directly, without intermediaries or representatives. Historically, this form of government has been rare, due to the difficulties of getting all the people of a certain territory in one place for the purpose of voting. All direct democracies to date have been relatively small communities; usually city-states. The most notable of these was ancient Athens
Representative democracy is a political system where the people vote on government members, who are then expected to make decisions in accordance with the interests of their voters. It is called representative because the people do not vote on government decisions directly, but elect representatives to decide for them. This form of government has been increasingly common in recent times, and the number of representative democracies experienced such explosive growth during the 20th century so that the majority of the world's population now lives under representative democratic regimes (which are sometimes also referred to as "republics"). In turn, representative democracies may be subdivided into "liberal" and "illiberal" forms.
Liberal democracy is a type of representative democracy where the ruling government is subject to rule of law and separation of powers, while the people are guaranteed certain inviolable rights. Illiberal democracy is a type of representative democracy where there are no effective limits on the power of elected representatives to rule as they please.
The original framers of the United States Constitution were notably cognizant of what they perceived as a danger of majority rule in oppressing freedom of the individual. For example, James Madison, in Federalist Paper No. 10 advocates a constitutional republic over a democracy precisely to protect the individual from the majority. However, at the same time, the framers carefully created democratic institutions and major open society reforms within the United States Constitution and the United States Bill of Rights. They kept what they believed were the best elements of democracy, but mitigated by a constitution with protections for individual liberty, a balance of power, and a layered federal structure.
So the US is a liberal, representative democracy organized as a federal republic.
Now is a first past the post, representative democracy the best system of government?
In my opinion, not at all. It allows too much room for manipulation by vested interests. However our current way of life is too tied to a monetarist system of economics and until that is changed, say to a post-scarcity system such as exemplified by the Venus Project, then an improved multiparty representative democracy is what we have. Things such as fixed term limits and transparent funding can help reduce corruption as well as routinely cleaning house with the bureaucrats - it's there, not necessarily with the politicians where a lot of graft and vice can be found. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 6/29/2009 4:19:59 PM | Mmm
Of all the intresting things to talk about!?
The problem with democracy is that generally, people so often don't really know what they want out of life.
But it has to be better than just entrusting it all into one man's own thoughts!
My perfect government would, firstly not have expenses :P. Mostly I'd like to see alot more micro-management. Money from one area going back into that area. Other than that, schools should time with employment hours ...You know that makes sense
Haven't really decided on anything else!
Pablo | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 6/29/2009 5:58:14 PM | No. Democracy is not the best form of government. Democracy is an ideal, the rule of the people, that's probably the best ideal for a government but there's more to systems of government than ideals.
Government as it has evolved from absolute monarchs and emperors has retained its biased status quo driven practices.
Personally, I believe that we would do better holding lotteries for seats in government than we do with campaigns and popularity contests. We are not electing good politicians, we are electing popular politicians. Popular and good are often in disagreement.
Yup... random governments... obviously pooled from qualified individuals. I think that it would yield interesting results.
or better yet, direct and total democracy, mass voting not on candidates but on issues, complete transparency, the technology exists to implement such systems, every citizen home having a terminal. It might be a wild ride. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 6/29/2009 6:12:01 PM | | The best form of government would be an implied matriarchy. The way it works is, the women agree what should be done and the men do it without having to ask what it is. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 6/29/2009 9:23:24 PM | no democracy is not the best form of goverment... for a few reasons... democracy is made of of partys or other sects of goverment, right wing and left wing... and these people believ in seartain point, and often the conflict with others beliefs.... soo they agrure thier point, and the dession goes to the point best argued... however this is wrong... we should be working together rather than aguring... fasism i dont like for the lack in freedom, and comunism is essentually fashism in descize exsept for the fact that everybody gets paid the same, but essentually thats not a trait of communism, is on a difrent scale, it is really the oposite of capatalism... the the problem is that we have no ballance... see insead of globalisation, we should be focused on localisation... instead of world goverments, we should have independant city states... instead of borders we should have earth... un broken beautiful nature... we should stop growing, and start finding a way to achieve balance
peace to all | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 6/29/2009 9:39:20 PM | I like democratic gov'ts they give alot too the people,with that being said many forms of gov't work well for their countries and they will bargain with other nations too improve their quality of life.Good example and simple video games....they r created all across the world and then advertised based on their popularity not all children read books or even play games but given the opportunity the mind will do all the calculations needed too find sucess,peace | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 6/29/2009 11:57:45 PM | What do you mean by 'best form?' Short term, absolutely. Long term, it remains to be seen. All past democracies have one flaw, which is eventually the people elect politicians who basically steal from Peter to pay Paul and Paula. You can always count on those two votes, so who cares what Peter says?
Eventually you get more and more of the tax burden passed to a smaller and smaller segment of the population at the same time spending goes out of control. That can't last indefinitely and eventually it will collapse.
Remember throughout all of recorded human history to most lasting forms of government were more dictatorial in nature. It's not the best as far as to the benefit to the majority, but it does have staying power. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 6/30/2009 8:08:59 AM | When we allow our elected officials to become "civil masters", such as we have done now...we've lost the concept of "democracy".
We may be able to move to a "democratic" form of gov't by "town hall concensus", with the technology we have...but we'd need "watchdogs" on it. Who watches the watchers?
Simplifying the "welfare state" would also help. Cut the red tape BS and use the computers to tie information together in order to decide if someone can collect or not.
We already have 3rd and 4th generation welfare...time to stop that nonsense.
Place more emphasis on education. More dollars to those institutions in order to actually educate the young.
Change criminal law and the way we try accused people. Simplify it. (Perhaps have a pool of "professional jurists" to use instead of a "jury of your peers". Do NOT allow "politically correct" agendas to set the tone for any trials or crimes.)
Actually treat ALL people as "equals". None of this "some more equal than others BS" that we have seen. None of this "because they are of this sex". Or because they are "this colour, creed, religion". All treated the same.
No more having to "fight for your rights". They are "rights" and MUST be applied evenhandedly. Anyone attempting to coerce these "rights" could be tried as a criminal and made to pay restitution.
Make a citizen responsible FOR their actions...or inactions. Enforced voting. Even if they spoil the ballot or check the "abstain" box...a vote is cast.
Lots of ways gov't could be improved, and the way it functions.
You can have an individual voice in proceedings....but you still HAVE your voice...not like now where the "majority rules". The "majority" doesn't rule...cause most people do NOT vote. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 6/30/2009 11:14:53 AM | Lol.... Winston Churchill was approached by a citizen who accused him of being drunk (he most probably was:).... His reply was along the direct lines of:
I may be drunk now madam.... In the morning I will be sober....but you will still be ugly :)
You godda love dat condescending political wit 'Cyke'..... .....:) | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 6/30/2009 1:43:17 PM | The US is not a democracy.... it's a democratic republic, so I would say no, a true democracy would be silly. The US founders explicitly said that they don't want "mob rule" by a pure-bred democracy. The people weren't so smart then and emotionally reactive, and still, aren't very smart and emotionally reactive. To have every law and decision made by a population vote would be chaotic.
I think referring to history has huge enormous flaws, on a black-n-white "what worked". The best way for a government to function resides on the culture of the people, and it would change over time.
When energy and building materials become as cheap as peanuts, things -should- be different.
But as far as the whole electoral process and government law-making/enforcement/judicial structure goes, I think a democratic republic about the best form of structure to go. No matter what the government, you DO have dictator(s). It's just a matter of electing them, and the roles they play, and how easy it is for them to execute their ideas once in office. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 6/30/2009 2:07:45 PM | I doubt that it is the best form, but can't point to a better system. I can only say that I know it can be improved upon.
One problem I see with democracy is that uninformed people can vote on issues where - lacking knowledge - they are swayed by shallow, biased, or osimply wrong advertising (often intentionally so).
I think it would be reasonable to require that everyone voting on an issue or candidate display some basic understanding, perhaps through several true/false questions on the ballot that would be approved by all parties interested in the item. Failure to correctly answer the questions would invalidate that vote, ensuring that only those who understand the issues would be given a say in them. I think this would help encourage a better informed electorate, and better decisions. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 6/30/2009 3:24:14 PM | | Representative democracy is only a part of the US government. Democracy by itself will tend to repress minorities and individuals. The US is primarily a constitutional government where a controlling document limits the excesses of government be it the democratic aspects such as an elected president, representative as in the legislature, or appointed as in the courts and endless bureaucracies. All these PEOPLE over time have been somewhat successful in diminishing the limits set by the constitution for their own gain to where the constitution and even the word "freedom" is now more symbol than reality. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 6/30/2009 4:47:41 PM | I thought we were talking about what kind of govt is best, not what kind of govt the U.S. is but all I'm hearing is...
"America is a democracy"
"no, it's a republic"
"the US is a liberal, representative democracy organized as a federal republic"
"the US is primarily a constitutional government"
Well you're all wrong, it's a plutocracy disguised as all of the above. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/1/2009 8:38:40 AM |
Well you're all wrong, it's a plutocracy disguised as all of the above.
That is a derogatory label from a proven failed political philosophy created by slacker living in what was basically the Victorian cast system of the UK. His writings have been the excuse for megalomaniacs to grab power by using dim witted peasants to overthrow those in their way. Animal Farm is an excellent response to his manifesto although Farm's author could be described as a disenchanted socialist. Lazy slackers almost always tend toward socialist ideals as such ideals enable their lethargy. I would suggest those really interested in the thread's question, read and study with an open mind so it won't be so empty. Chanting slogans and throwing out labels reminds me of a statement by Chairman Mao: "Into empty minds, many wonderful things can be put."
No modern government can be totally free from the influence of the US government. That could be directly from war or trade or indirectly by example. The point I made about the US government was that it has elements from a variety of government forms established with the hope that a binding document would keep all these elements in check. One aspect that is less easy to recognize has been the elements that promote entrepreneurial efforts and capitalism to build wealth as opposed to colonialism where wealth is acquired through oppression or a fuedal system where power is inherited. The founding fathers of th US knew it was an experiement yet over time, it has aquired defenses against the excesses that can come from unbrideled capitolism.
Since the US founding, it's example has been at the root of many revolutions. An example of one that ended poorly was the French revolution. A phrase that has been attributed to Napolean himself sums up what went wrong: "I'm no George Washington" in reference to Washington's rejected opportunity to become the all powerful leader like the one they had just revolted against. As Animal Farm demonstrates, be cautious of the leaders that promise you a wonderful future. A socialist leaning vegetarian artist could even become one of the worst megalomaniacs the world has ever seen. If it wasn't for another socialist megalomaniac inspiration for Animal Farm, we might not have been able to defeat the German vegeterian artist.
As we approach the celebration of US freedom from colonialism, ask yourself if you are truly free to celebrate it? It does seem the power the binding document to keep government in check has been weakened. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/1/2009 8:56:04 AM |
That is a derogatory label from a proven failed political philosophy created by slacker living in what was basically the Victorian cast system of the UK.
Actually it's a derogatory label from the ancient Greek city-states. Aside from that, are you saying that the rich don't have an inordinate amount of control in U.S. govt doings? I think you're naive if you think the poor have anywhere near as much power as the rich. What exactly does Animal Farm have to do with it? The point of that story is that after a revolution the people newly in power often become as bad or worse than those they cast out, it's based on the revolution and rise of the communist soviets. I don't really see the connection. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/1/2009 9:54:16 AM | best government would be an educated democracy with moral limitations.
issues would be presented to all qualified / educated people and voted on after open discussions ... all posted on the internet.
transparency is necessary.
education is necessary.
moral limitations are necessary
all the people are qualified to vote on moral limitations.
so in the end .... yes .... some form of democracy could be the best form of government.
oh .... an maybe civil servant jobs should have time limits too ...
allowing everyone a chance to have a government job and guaranteeing a decent income.
[as for the problems with the philosopher king/priest ... well the Dali Lama is an example of that problem solved ... then the overpowering by a tyrant next door still seems to disolve the state] | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/1/2009 9:04:25 PM |
I don't really see the connection.
There cannot be ambition to improve one's self and one's journey through life unless there is a disparity in wealth and power. The whining of slackers like Marx who did not bother to keep and hold a job to support himself and his family is a very poor example for society but his writing has served to create a movement of like minds. That movement has resulted in the killing of millions by the states that promised to serve them.
education is necessary.
Who does the educating? Is it an all powerful state? Perhaps it is a wealthy organization that creates a "truth" web site and with its influence and investment in the main stream media, promotes the web site as some final authority on truth. One should be willing to challenge those who educate us and provide us with "facts" or else we are being trained, not educated.
all the people are qualified to vote on moral limitations.
So if a majority vote that enslaving of a minority or even worse is morally justified, then it's OK? This issue was not so simple for the US founding fathers and political expediency won the day. At what point does moral legislation blend church and state? | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/1/2009 9:15:15 PM |
There cannot be ambition to improve one's self and one's journey through life unless there is a disparity in wealth and power. The whining of slackers like Marx who did not bother to keep and hold a job to support himself and his family is a very poor example for society but his writing has served to create a movement of like minds. That movement has resulted in the killing of millions by the states that promised to serve them.
Rich people are usually born rich, they didn't work hard to achieve it. If everyone who was rich had worked for it, that'd be great and I'd be in full support of them. But no, they were born rich to parents who were born rich, who were in turn born of rich parents, often going very far back before you get to the one individual who actually made himself rich through some sort of personal effort. A friend of mine had a very interesting solution to the problem, a 95% estate tax, so everyone starts out on more even footing in life and certain families can't hoard wealth for generation upon generation. | |
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