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 Author Thread: Who are you calling Bird Brain?
 Naamah

Joined: 6/13/2009
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Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 6/30/2009 4:48:01 AM
Yes, it's a long post, and no it doesn't involve sex...sorry to disappoint.

I've always thought that one of the reasons humans tend to dismiss the possible intelligence of animals is the fact that we can't communicate with them. It seems to me that this leads us to assume, firstly, that...they have no language...and secondly, that they aren't capable of thinking about anything except food and survival, have no emotions, have limited memory, don't process thoughts like we do, etc. Basically we think they're pretty dumb compared to us. (Although in my household when I look at my animals all snoozing under a tree while I mow the yard, I do wonder who has outsmarted who exactly...)

Sure, according to the benchmarks of intelligence, humans are ahead of the pack...but then one must remember that it was us who determined the benchmarks of intelligence. Could it be a rigged game?

Anyway...
When it comes to birds...parrots in particular...humans have been able to teach them to speak our language (although we haven't managed to learn theirs ) because most birds have a great ear for sound and parrots can mimic so well. And for the most part, it is assumed to be mimicry. We say, Polly wanna cracker enough times, and they eventually repeat it. Eventually they might start saying it without any encouragement, but probably they don't know what they're saying. It could be said that they simply work out that if they make that sound for the humans, it gets them a treat. In fact, we teach our kids language using almost this same technique...we use words to, and near, them... and they start mimicking us and get praised. The difference is, we also teach children what the words mean. Sometimes a child might learn to say a word before they know what it means, or understand a concept before they know the word for it...but it all catches up eventually. So over time we all eventually learn to use language to communicate...not just mimic.

There was a bird, an African Grey parrot, that my avian vet mentioned to me. This bird was taught not just to mimic human words, but was also taught what they mean. This isn’t just some party trick. He was kept by scientists, and was basically a research project. His name was Alex.

I have seen different footage of Alex...like where a scientist holds a green wooden block in front of Alex and asks..."what colour"? Alex says 'green'. And then asks "what matter" (that's their short-hand language for 'what's this made out of') and Alex answers "wood". And he can answer various other questions (asked randomly) about the same block, which shows he's not just associating one word with the block...he understands what green is, and that it’s a colour, and what wood is, and that it’s “matter” etc. Basically he was taught to understand enough language that he could understand and communicate concepts, demonstrate his ability to reason, and acknowledge feelings too.

I have seen footage where they put a tray scattered with different items in front of Alex. Toy cars of different colours, big wood blocks of different colours, small wood blocks of different colours, squares of wool in different colours. They can ask "how many blue?" or "how many wool?" or "how many smaller blocks?" and he can recognise what characteristic he is being asked to identify (colour/shape/size/what it's made of etc) and count how many of the items on the tray have that characteristic. He could also do it with two characteristics... “How many bigger orange blocks?” So basically he had enough language to exhibit the same intelligence as a 3 or 4 year old child.

I have been told that the first time Alex saw himself in a mirror, he asked the lab assistant "Who's that?". She said, "That's you Alex." He hadn't yet been taught the colour grey at that stage, and so he then asked the lab assistant a question of his own..."What colour?" And that was how he learned 'grey'. ...Self-awareness, questioning skills, curiosity about what we called his particular colour, using our language to find out more about our language. It seems Alex was doing some research of his own.

Alex would ask for a drink when he wanted one, tell people to “calm down” when they seemed frustrated, say “sorry” after being unco-operative, and when he got dropped off to the vet he'd say..."no, I wanna go back, sorry, I love you". What kid wants to go to the doctor eh. My vet also told me that Alex would 'test' the new uni students who came through to do work with him in his own ways, and anyone who failed Alex's screening process would receive absolutely no co-operation from him. He'd only play dumb with those students. Didn't like 'em, didn't want to talk to them. Makes me wonder how many animals do actually look at us humans and decide we are best ignored, consciously.

For anyone who is interested, here's some Alex... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYk-wE18BTo
If you can ignore the corny narration, I love the bit where he asks for corn. He sinks his beak in. Then he tells them (without being asked) that it’s soft, and cold (it’s just out of the fridge). When Alex drops a bit of corn...he tells the scientist to "go pick up corn". Sound like a conversation with a toddler? Alex could also answer questions in abstract...so even if there is no corn in front of him, and they ask what colour is corn, he can answer.

So OK, Alex probably wasn't ever going to become an engineer or split the atom, but then again, he probably didn’t aspire to. But he had the intelligence of a human child...even despite having a tiny little bird brain compared to a child. Those scientists weren’t teaching him to be intelligent, they were merely teaching him human words so that he could communicate his intelligence. There are a lot of species that scientists tell us have the intelligence of (at least) human children, but I guess given that Alex’s biology allowed him to replicate the sounds of our language, he was able to demonstrate it on terms we can all see and appreciate. Had Alex not died, I wonder how much language they could have taught him, to reveal heaven knows what level of thought and reasoning a tiny bird brain is capable of.

Couple of things to ask...

What are your thoughts about the intelligence of animals? And the results achieved with Alex? And, if it was accepted in your own mind, as a 100% proven fact, that animals are at least as intelligent as a human child, would that change your current perception of what constitutes acceptable and unacceptable treatment of animals?
 Questio amicitias

Joined: 6/3/2009
Msg: 2
Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 6/30/2009 6:07:32 AM
I'd eat Alex if I was starving....

I think your example of Alex is not the right one for this kind of argument, he was taught another language in a way we humans could only understand... it didn't exactly boost the parrot population higher up the evolutionary scale.

The sad thing is that many people these days are so isolated from the notion of killing for food, someone else does the dirty work and sticks it in a supermarket. I grew up on a farm and to kill a ewe to feed the family was never given a second thought, either you eat that or starve to death with a fuzzy warm inner glow that shrinks with every day you think it might impact on the sheep's well being!
 Prakticle

Joined: 4/23/2009
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Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 6/30/2009 6:25:49 AM
I understand that in the early eighties there was an identified market in the middle east by those intrepid kiwis, a distinct lack of females pointed them to the obvoius! live sheep exports. Can you imagine the conversations of those poor misguided little fluffies while lying on the deck sipping margueritas under the plimsole......

The last cruise?
 Naamah

Joined: 6/13/2009
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Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 6/30/2009 6:41:14 AM
Thanks for your posts guys. I did anticipate some aversion to the idea.


....Dr. Donald R. Griffin, author of "Animal Thinking," who coined the phrase "cognitive ethology," the study of animal cognition. He believes that animals are capable of complex thought and behavior that is not just instinctive.

The discovery that "a bird can express his conscious thoughts and feelings," said Dr. Griffin, "is a great advance. We used to think that was impossible." To Dr. Griffin, Alex's achievements are just one more proof of his contention.

Dr. Griffin's views of animal intelligence have been hotly contested. "The intensity of the aversion is incredible," he said. "It's a very touchy subject.

Scientists don't like to be told that a valid reason for what an animal does is the possibility that it does it with any consciousness."


I wonder why it's such a touchy subject?
 ~luvUlongtime~

Joined: 5/9/2008
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Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 6/30/2009 6:42:04 AM
It's hard to prove to people that don't 'click' with animals that many animals are highly intelligent and often have an incredibly complex emotional range. People that don't 'get it' I just don't get. Maybe it's because they don't seem all that bright to me... unlike the many animals I've had the honour of knowing.

This clip speaks for itself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdACUfI6nA0

More info:
http://koko.org/world/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koko_(gorilla)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Ball
 tarvold

Joined: 10/4/2008
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Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 6/30/2009 6:48:15 AM
Well... Big Bird did teach everyone the alphabet ... so...


I think there's two main issues here, and allow me to touch on them both.

First, the possibility that animals are at least as smart as some humans, occasionally children, and the implications this has on their ethical treatment. The very premise of this topic implies that we need to benchmark the human attitude and treatment of animals against that between humans. Unfortunately, there's no way to do this without bringing up some very taboo topics...

Lets have a look at the way humans treat each other. Whether you like it or not, there's racism and other forms of discrimination. There's genocide and wars and mass murders happening around the world right this very moment. We ridicule, bully, abuse and even torture each other... And it really wasn't that long ago when New Zealanders still ate other people.

Ultimately, humans, as a species, are deeply flawed. Using our superior intelligence as an excuse for cruelty upon another species is, in my opinion, not a reflection of our superiority on the food chain, but rather, evidence that humans, in general, are not yet as superior as we'd like to think we are. Perhaps if we were more humble with ourselves, accept our biological origins, and realize that, like all the other species in the animal kingdom, we are born and evolved from the Earth, then we may sooner realize that we really aren't superior and above the food chain and eco-system. We have always been, and always will be part of it.

But then again, there is also the other main issue - the intelligence and education of our own children. Lets face it, our education systems are terrible, and we really have no idea on what the limits of our minds are. I suspect that even if we took an average child, and give her the care and attention and environment that Alex was privileged to, her capacity for greatness may surprise us all...

... In which case, we might actually be significantly superior beings...
 CavesBeach

Joined: 11/28/2008
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Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 6/30/2009 6:58:34 AM
having a "bird brain" in the aviation world is a term of endearment..I was lucky enough to be called it once...have never forgot it.
I wont forget that ==== http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYk-wE18BTo === in a hurry

I killed a huntsman today, running really late this morning and he was on my fancy shirt that was washed and hanging..its been nagging at me all day. I'm sure this critter wasn't real keen on the death thing, he might not pray to his little spider god or have spider culture but I am %100 sure he knew what death meant..maybe its just instinct(will to live) but i doubt it was all program.



Alex probably wasn't ever going to become an engineer or split the atom, but then again, he probably didn’t aspire to

when us humans split the atom we couldn't get it in a bomb fast enough to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki... maybe alex knew better.


would that change your current perception of what constitutes acceptable and unacceptable treatment of animals?

nope, i have never used intelligence as a basis for compassion. I treat all animals with respect and I only willfully kill what I intend to eat...cept before said spider..RIP spider.

I have seen wild animals at sea and on land come purposely up at me for a plain old look..curious sentient beings .
 Prakticle

Joined: 4/23/2009
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Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 6/30/2009 7:25:08 AM
Ka pai bro, you mean we have stopped? nobody told me! us kiwi boys only eat women though, nothing gay here, we sent those fellus to Sydney....
My dog was a cognisant beautiful rottwieller that is the only female that has ever really both loved me and understood me, would i eat dog? how hungry am I?
I think that when I was in the islands I might have unwhittingly......

how is it that we have not posed the question why do animals have no issue killing other animals, or eating them? would a hungry lion make the same conscious choice if really hungry?

vegan / vegetarianism is a conscious choice that may bring you closer to buddha while the rest of us are just re encarnated as huntsm...."eeeaaaaerk"

 julianx

Joined: 2/9/2008
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Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 6/30/2009 7:59:36 AM

I've always thought that one of the reasons humans tend to dismiss the possible intelligence of animals is the fact that we can't communicate with them.


Ha, not half an hour before seeing this post one of my daughters was reading out an ad in the local rag for an ‘animal communicator’ sort of an animal psychologist/spiritualist, and she reckoned it might be a good job for you...tongue in cheek...of course...well mostly.

I does fascinate me the different ways that animals communicate, dogs for instance, I love to watch the different reactions our white ball of fluff has to the smells that the neighbourhood dogs leave lying around for her to find when I take her for a walk, sometimes she’ll smell a lamp post and react with fear and other smells will make her happy. I’d love to know what sort of mental image, if any, that she can build up of another dog simply from smelling it’s odour.


would that change your current perception of what constitutes acceptable and unacceptable treatment of animals?

I’m with Caves on this one, I’d never use intelligence as a basis for compassion...scorn and ridicule perhaps...but not compassion. The question does however beg to be asked from the other side; ‘would that change your current perception of what constitutes acceptable and unacceptable treatment of children?’ and I guess this is all about instinct and survival of our species and ultimately about self preservation.
...Although there’s nothin' wrong with locking you kids in cages... I do it all the time.
 Hawaiianluau

Joined: 11/13/2008
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Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 6/30/2009 2:33:59 PM
Clipping wings and/or keeping birds in cages to me is where this discussion begins.
Flying is the essence of their existence.
Non - intelligence would be having your own airplane and only using it for taxiing around.
Same is true for holding birds in captivity as far as I'm concerned.

I love it when two finches nest not 5 feet from the entrance to my home each year.
I feel like they belong without the possession aspect. I never get to see the babies though. It's amazing that they all just fly off early one morning at the same time. I can tell the day before the fact by the behavior of the 2 adult birds. They turn their attention from feeding to checking out the distance from the roof to the ground, potential predators, wind speed, 100% focused on the surroundings. I don't need to own the critters to enjoy their co - existence. One year I'd like to set up a video camera to capture the chick’s virgin flight into the wild 'cause somehow I always miss that one moment.

Taking birds out of their natural habitat and their instinctive environs decapitates their entire soul and being. I know this can be said about other animals too but to me there is something about doing it to birds and their purpose on the planet that magnifies the meddling.

Communicating ?
The sound of birds communicating WITH EACH OTHER is what poems and songs are made of, the most beautiful sound that there is at dawn. Waking up and realizing you're still alive, just like you were yesterday.
 tarvold

Joined: 10/4/2008
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Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 6/30/2009 4:09:25 PM

Clipping wings and/or keeping birds in cages to me is where this discussion begins.
Flying is the essence of their existence.


*cough* Circumcision *cough*

 nevaagin

Joined: 4/8/2009
Msg: 12
Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 6/30/2009 4:23:26 PM
Naamah'spost was interesting . I think for all our talk talk we are a very stupid species and wouldn't want a bird to think otherwise . They don't fvck up their environment as we do . Fowls aren't foul , altho' I'm scared of them . And cats like mine who don't do cat talk communicate with compassionate little noises if their human is unhappy .
 PeachSipper

Joined: 3/21/2006
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Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 6/30/2009 5:44:53 PM
I guess most animals are intelligent enough to do the things they do....

survive in their world....

the first bird/human interactions I watched were at my Grannys place when I was a pre schooler.... she would walk out to the top of the stairs and call "Butch,butch, butch" in one of those sweet wavery old voices.... and down one would come.. sit on the rail sing a few notes and take the small sliver of meat she offered...

I was amazed.... you can talk to birds?.... how cool is that!.. how cool is granny.... she was doing it...

there's a family of butcher birds that live here... always singing and calling to eachother, I can pick individuals by their songs and looks/character...
I've tried to learn some of the signals/calls/responses to calls... and when I get the tones right.. they look at me... sing another bit for me to try and copy......
the matriarch trusts me and gets the closest... and does a lot of the singing.... lands beside me at the rail before I've even noticed them or whistled them..
I've never tried to hand feed them, though it would be easy... .....I'm content to put some food out and watch from a few feet away while they all come down for a snack or feed the kids.... they'll hop up to the cat while he's eating and pinch food out of his bowl...

smart birds... they've got the cat and I sussed....

and there's the pair of pesky kookaburras that muscle in to claim the cat food too...

I can't look at a kookaburra now without seeing jack nicholson.... with the untidy little grey feathers that stick out the side of their heads.... like jack nicholsons...
 Questio amicitias

Joined: 6/3/2009
Msg: 14
Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 6/30/2009 6:14:14 PM
Tarvold, human beings are not deeply flawed, we have adapted much faster than anything else and take advantage of what we can do to better our existence. Do you think a dog will sleep out side or in the shed in winter.... the answer is quite easy, the dog knows of a better substitute and uses it. Humans have gone one better and can construct our own shelter etc.

The only down side to our existence is the overpopulation, we need to use more land in order to survive.... how long can we continue doing this is any ones guess.

We, like any other animal have taken what opportunities we can get in order to survive and prosper, animals do the same.
 Robbbyg

Joined: 3/4/2009
Msg: 15
Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 6/30/2009 9:07:09 PM
on the original question I disagree, seems to me a form or ROTE learning perhaps? sorry for being the skeptic , an example in human, we can fix things , even teach things to others without even knowing the fundamental core of how that thing works/ and no idea on the subject we are teaching, ? a parrot hears a sound the parrots learnt that if it chooses the right block/colour it will be rewarded with food, seems a bit too much like a parlour trick perhaps?
 Naamah

Joined: 6/13/2009
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Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 6/30/2009 10:35:15 PM
Tarvold, I thought your post was very insightful and well written, particularly this bit...

Ultimately, humans, as a species, are deeply flawed. Using our superior intelligence as an excuse for cruelty upon another species is, in my opinion, not a reflection of our superiority on the food chain, but rather, evidence that humans, in general, are not yet as superior as we'd like to think we are. Perhaps if we were more humble with ourselves, accept our biological origins, and realize that, like all the other species in the animal kingdom, we are born and evolved from the Earth, then we may sooner realize that we really aren't superior and above the food chain and eco-system. We have always been, and always will be part of it.
And just further on your comments about needing to be more humble as a species, here's a similar thought reflected in an article on the Richard Dawkins website...

A truly dispassionate observer might argue that most Grey parrots could probably learn what Alex had learned, but only a microscopic minority of humans could have learned what Alex had to teach. Most humans are not truly dispassionate observers. We're too invested in the idea of our superiority to understand what an inferior quality it really is. I always wonder how the experiments would go if they were reversed — if, instead of us trying to teach Alex how to use the English language, Alex were to try teaching us to understand the world as it appears to parrots. by Verlyn Klinkenborg
...which is pretty much what I was thinking with regards to how we made up the rules about what constitutes intelligence. Those who make up the competition rules in their favour are bound to win. Here's further comment from another man I admire...

"It is an important and popular fact that things are not always what they seem. For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much - the wheel, New York, wars and so on - whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons." - Douglas Adams



Taking birds out of their natural habitat and their instinctive environs decapitates their entire soul and being. I know this can be said about other animals too but to me there is something about doing it to birds and their purpose on the planet that magnifies the meddling.

Communicating ?
The sound of birds communicating WITH EACH OTHER is what poems and songs are made of, the most beautiful sound that there is at dawn.

Hawaiian, I completely agree with you. I admit I felt quite sorry for Alex. His feather picking, and (in some other footage) repeated requests of "I wanna go back" sort of indicated that he wasn't having the ideal parrot life himself. "Alex's name was an acronym for the research project, Avian Learning EXperiment."


I can pick individuals by their songs and looks/character...
I've tried to learn some of the signals/calls/responses to calls... and when I get the tones right.. they look at me... sing another bit for me to try and copy......

That's really cool. I know ducks are never given as much credit for intelligence as other more glam birds, but they like to do the same thing. They love it when I play a round robin quacking game with them, and when I get bored and stop they try and get me interested again. All birds are incredibly auditory. Some of my tamer chickens also will conduct verbal exchanges with me...their turn, my turn, etc. If some uni somewhere would pay my bills for a few years I would love to sit and work out the nuances of their language. One of the cutests things I've seen is a mother hen, issuing a particular command to chicks, whereupon they all immediately duck down in long grass, and don't pop up again until mum gives the all clear. They definitely have language. Mind you, mostly mother hen is just messing with them...they also have humour. :)


on the original question I disagree, seems to me a form or ROTE learning perhaps? sorry for being the skeptic

Skepticism is healthy. Alex was taught using a method called modelling. They would demonstrate the correct word that would enable him to have the object in front of him, until he got the hang of it. They use the same method to teach kids with learning disabilities who need more concentrated methods of teaching. Once they overcome the hurdle of teaching some vocab (which is learning words and meaning, not just words) then the 'student' can start to use those words in other contexts as tools to communicate. Whereas mimicry is just repeating something without accrediting it meaning. Alex telling his trainer to "pick up corn" indicates he was able to use the minimal language to start to convey his own thoughts, rather than just count blocks.

For comparison, this parrot demonstrates mimicry...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnTT7u5U4Yo&feature=related. He's been taught to make certain sounds from different verbal clues from his owner. It's entirely different from answering complex questions and asking questions of his own, as Alex did. This footage is an example of humans being delighted at "party tricks" that "amuse" us, as opposed to respecting intelligence of an animal, which is not half as show-business, but innately more meaningful. And here's Alex's trainer answering your sort of question RobbyG http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4gTR4tkvcM&NR=1...after all, she's a scientist, it's not like she's never faced skeptics.


I also wanted to mention that Alex and other parrots were being taught to use computers. They were being taught to pull certain levers to get different things to run on the computer, to help fend off boredom while sitting in their cage. Footage of their "people" was the hot favourite pick. The point being made was about how frustratingly boring it is for caged birds while their owners are away at work all day. The question is asked on this footage, would you leave a 3-4 year old child in a play pen with 2 toys for an 8 hour stretch and expect it to be fulfilled and happy at day's end, let alone a lifetime of that. Anyway, this is a long-ish clip and the computer stuff isn't until the end. http://www.pbs.org/saf/1201/video/watchonline.htm
 Naamah

Joined: 6/13/2009
Msg: 17
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Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 6/30/2009 10:50:00 PM
PS
Humans have gone one better and can construct our own shelter etc.

I was of the understanding that birds were building nests out of a variety of building materials, and in a wide range of styles, back when we were still dragging our knuckles on the ground??
 Questio amicitias

Joined: 6/3/2009
Msg: 18
Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 1:49:10 AM
^^^ That was then, my how times have changed... they try and build those same old nests in our houses now.
 Naamah

Joined: 6/13/2009
Msg: 19
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Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 2:06:07 AM
^^^ Perhaps because we knocked all the trees they used to use down, to build ours. Yes times have indeed changed since we decided to start building homes, and if conservation and considerate use of natural resources was one of the benchmarks of intelligence we wouldn't rate so well. Anyway, the point you initially made was that thinking to construct housing is a sign of the greater intelligence of humans, and yet we are neither unique nor original that practice. What else you got?
 ~luvUlongtime~

Joined: 5/9/2008
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Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 2:16:31 AM
Um... I can't build a house. Or a nest. I wouldn't even know how to hunt or scavenge for food if not for the supermarket and Mr Visa. I think birds might be smarter than I am. Luckily for me I can sponge off the accumulated wisdom of generations of humans, or I'd be stuffed hey?

It must give one a nice warm, fuzzy smug feeling, deep down inside, to think "humans are intelligent" and feel able to apply it to oneself personally.

I don't think humans are intelligent as a general rule. Some of 'em are, but most are incredibly thick. When stupidity is combined with arrogance... it ain't pretty.

 possibilitarian

Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 21
Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 2:28:56 AM
As I don't have any animals (too many kids) I wasn't going to post but, someone puts out a challenge (post 19) and I just can't help myself, so I had a good think .... and really can't come up with any trait that humans posses that at least one animal doesn't. So then I turned to the next best thing aside from using my brain and decided to google "what do animals have that humans don't?" and turned up



Families interfering with their choice of mate, that’s what!


thought it was worth sharing..........

there are a few more in there if you want to take a look.....
http://xeper.wordpress.com/2008/04/15/what-humans-have-that-animals-dont/
 PeachSipper

Joined: 3/21/2006
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Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 2:47:15 AM
Birds are specialised usually... some tend to be more persistent and ingenious to get at their foods... have a more intricate call..some birds just have to walk on the ground and pick up seeds... and go.. coo coo.... coo coo..

millions of starlings can fly in the tightest ball in the sky without hitting eachother,,,, and flow like water.....
eagles can see the smallest critter from high in the sky.....

birds have a lot more varieties than humans...
 Hilly1971

Joined: 4/15/2009
Msg: 23
Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 3:34:19 AM
I had a chook once who came into the house late one night and got me when her babies were being stalked by a snake. True she did not actually say "Fcuk Hilly, get your fat arse off the couch, theres a huge python killing the kids", but she made such a song and dance in front of me, when she should have been snoozing on her nest that she got the message across as well as if she had spoken.

From that, I can safely assume that she knew she could not keep her babies safe alone and she also knew that I would be able to help her and where to come for help.....to me that shows logical thinking.

Sadly she was not smart enough to realise I was sh1t scared of snakes, but I grabbed the thing anyway and then had to shout to the neighbour in tears when I could not get the damn thing off my arm.

Personally I think that people who assume they are far smarter and more important then animals simply because they are human, are really just showing what tools they are.

RIP Roadrunner...the most awesomest chook ever.
 ~luvUlongtime~

Joined: 5/9/2008
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Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 3:51:54 AM
I just remembered this clip I'd seen once on a David Rabbitburrow show. http://edutube.org/en/video/intelligent-crows-crack-open-nuts-using-traffic

And here's some stuff about Avian IQ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avian_IQ
 Questio amicitias

Joined: 6/3/2009
Msg: 25
Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 3:57:30 AM

Perhaps because we knocked all the trees they used to use down, to build ours. Yes times have indeed changed since we decided to start building homes, and if conservation and considerate use of natural resources was one of the benchmarks of intelligence we wouldn't rate so well. Anyway, the point you initially made was that thinking to construct housing is a sign of the greater intelligence of humans, and yet we are neither unique nor original that practice.


Why must we be unique, or original in order to be defined as a greater intelligence from other creatures? It's a matter of pure survival, or become extinct. What we do with our natural resources and conservation is high on the agenda, politically, aswell as socially... how far we go in order to rectify the past mistakes is determined be the will of the people. The very fact that we are aware in needing to be more careful is far beyond what birds or any other animal has achieved, their population has always been defined in how much food can be gathered and having a regular nesting sanctuary... if any of this becomes untenable then the population decreases, and then increases IF that balance returns to some normality.
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