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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/2/2009 12:46:12 PM |
Honduras's Micheletti says only invasion will reinstate Zelaya Last Updated: Wednesday, July 1, 2009 | 11:25 PM ET The Associated Press
It would take a foreign invasion to return the ousted president of Honduras to power, said the country's newly installed president, Roberto Micheletti, who assumed power following a military coup Sunday.
In an interview with The Associated Press, Micheletti vowed that Manuel Zelaya would be arrested if he returned to Honduras, even though the presidents of Argentina and Ecuador have agreed to accompany him, along with the heads of the Organization of American States and the UN General Assembly.
"He can no longer return to the presidency of the republic unless a president from another Latin American country comes and imposes him using guns," Micheletti said.
Zelaya was ousted Sunday by the army, which opposed his efforts to institute constitutional reform.
Micheletti, installed by the country's national congress, also made a bold claim suggesting the entire Honduran population backs his interim government.
Though Zelaya still enjoys strong support, especially among the poor majority, Micheletti warned that all "7.5 million Hondurans will be ready to defend our territory" against a foreign invasion.
His foreign minister, Enrique Ortez, also threatened Zelaya's escorts, saying: "We will let his companions enter if they represent friendly countries. If not, no."
While thousands of Hondurans demonstrated Wednesday for the return of Zelaya, thousands more rallied in favour of the military-backed government.
France, Spain, Italy, Chile and Colombia joined other nations Wednesday in recalling their ambassadors. The Pentagon suspended joint U.S.-Honduran military operations, and the World Bank said it was freezing loans.
The three Latin American countries that border Honduras — Nicaragua, El Salvador and Guatemala — have suspended cross-border trade.
Soldiers stormed Zelaya's residence and flew him into exile Sunday after he insisted on trying to hold a referendum on constitutional reform. The Supreme Court, congress and the military all deemed his planned ballot illegal. Zelaya backed down Tuesday, saying he will no longer push for constitutional changes.
Seeking to stem internal unrest, congress approved a bill Wednesday that toughens a curfew in place since the coup. The law gives authorities the power to conduct warrantless arrests and removes constitutional rights of assembly and movement during the 10 p.m. to 5 a.m. curfew.
Both sides of the dispute mobilized supporters in the streets Wednesday, with a pro-Zelaya march in the capital and pro-Micheletti demonstrations in other cities. No violence was reported.
Leftist broadcasters say they have been forced off the air or had signals interrupted by soldiers under orders of the new government. Micheletti said he would look into the allegations.
The Organization of American States gave Micheletti until Saturday to step aside before Honduras is suspended from the group, an ultimatum Secretary-General Jose Miguel Insulza said was meant "to show clearly that military coups will not be accepted. We thought we were in an era when military coups were no longer possible in this hemisphere."
Zelaya delayed plans to return Thursday to let that deadline play out.
"I'm going to respect those 72 hours that the OAS asked for," he said from Panama, where he attended a presidential inauguration.
The coup has been condemned by countries worldwide from across the political spectrum, as well as by the UN General Assembly.
The Obama administration has also sided clearly with Zelaya, despite criticism from Republicans that this puts it on the same side as Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and the Castros in Cuba. Micheletti told the AP he has had no contacts with any U.S. official since the coup. © The Canadian Press, 2009 The Canadian Press
Another military coup in Central America and all the American Republicans can do is complain that opposing it puts the US "on the same side as Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and the Castros in Cuba"?
And these are the same people who have made such a big deal out of supporting the invasion of Iraq because it was "spreading democracy"?
It's very interesting how Republican support for democracy suddenly flies out the window when it means being "on the same side" (that would be the side of democracy in this case) as Chavez and Castro.
Apparently, military coups are preferrable to democracy in their minds in such circumstances. | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/2/2009 1:18:42 PM | We should stand on the side of freedom, not a two bit dictator want a be like Zelaya. To hell what Chavez and Casrtos wants. I can't believe our president is supporting these want to be dictators, but then it doesn't surprise me that much either. He doesn't want to meddle in the business of Iran's freedom fighter, but he will support a third world thug like Zelaya. If Zelaya was a muslim, I'm sure we would already have troops down there | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/2/2009 1:58:05 PM | Havent y0u meddled enough in Iranian and Central American countries affairs in years gone by? No wonder they are slightly pissed. If he was a muslim the country probably would have been invaded by the previous admininstration. Wait, is there oil there? | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/2/2009 2:07:58 PM |
he will support a third world thug like Zelaya. Oh please, do educate us and tell us all just how he earns the title "thug". What is it that keeps him from being as nice a guy as the US's historical friends in the Americas, like Somoza, Stroessner, Pinochet for example? | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/2/2009 4:43:47 PM | | Wait - where is the ourage over US "Imperialism"? You're PROUD of Obama meddling in another country's afairs now? Wait - which side of which argument are you on? LOL! Do you even know? | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/2/2009 5:04:14 PM |
Wait - where is the ourage over US "Imperialism"? I think you need to learn the meaning of the concept.
You're PROUD of Obama meddling in another country's afairs now? Wait - which side of which argument are you on? LOL! Do you even know? Oh wait, I get it now...
You're trying to avoid dealing with this:
It's very interesting how Republican support for democracy suddenly flies out the window when it means being "on the same side" (that would be the side of democracy in this case) as Chavez and Castro. and
Apparently, military coups are preferrable to democracy in their minds in such circumstances. by acting like you actualy understand the concepts.
Slim chance of that but, you keep practicing and you just might get it some day. | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/2/2009 6:14:34 PM |
Yea I get it - HYPOCRISY in the name of political expediency! STILL can't deal with the reality of...
It's very interesting how Republican support for democracy suddenly flies out the window when it means being "on the same side" (that would be the side of democracy in this case) as Chavez and Castro. and
Apparently, military coups are preferrable to democracy in their minds in such circumstances. So much easier to simply project (that's a psychology term, btw) your own Republicans' failings onto others, hmmm?
That's ok, I understand how difficult the cognitive dissonance (that's another psychology term) can be.
Would a little pat on the head help? It works for the kids at school. | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/2/2009 6:26:44 PM | You don't get it there bud... I haven't said I disagree with his position... That is YOU trying desperately to put words in my mouth... I'm just cracking up over the fact that no liberals are screaming about "imperialism" because we've meddled in yet ANOTHER country's affairs...  | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/2/2009 6:42:09 PM | You don't get it there bud... I haven't said I disagree with his position... That is YOU trying desperately to put words in my mouth... I'm just cracking up over the fact that no liberals are screaming about "imperialism" Oh, I get it...
It's just patently obvious that you don't understand the concept, that's why you think you've come up with a "gotcha" even though you're failing miserably at it.
I mean, realy, if you're going to try and turn "liberal" arguments around it would work much better if you actualy understood the concepts rather than simply "sticking your tongue out" and saying "you're one too" as though you've actualy made a point.
But, if you'd like some lessons I'll give you a deal on my usual tutoring fee (but you'll have to agree to a minimum number of lessons or I'll have to charge full rate). | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/3/2009 8:19:03 AM |
Oh please, do educate us and tell us all just how he earns the title "thug". by Patrick J. Buchanan
07/03/2009 Last Saturday, Honduran soldiers marched into the presidential palace, bundled up President Manuel Zelaya and put him on a plane for Costa Rica. The ouster had been ordered by the Supreme Court and approved by the Congress, as Zelaya was attempting an illegal referendum to change the Honduran constitution so he could run for another term. Will someone please explain why this bloodless transfer of power to the civilian legislator first in line for the presidency, in a sovereign nation, is any business of the United Nations, the Organization of American States, Hugo Chavez, the Castro brothers or Barack Obama? For all have denounced the "coup" and demanded Zelaya's immediate return. The hypocrisy here is astounding. Chavez was imprisoned for his bloody coup attempt in Venezuela in 1992. And to have Fidel Castro's dictatorship of half a century denouncing a glitch in the democratic process of a Western Hemisphere republic is beyond parody. What percentage of the 200 member nations of that septic tank of anti-Americanism, the United Nations, are democracies? How many leaders of its member states came to power through free and fair elections? And what happened to the idea of non-intervention in the internal affairs of Western Hemisphere republics? At this writing, Honduras is not buckling. "We have established a democratic government, and we will not cede to pressure from anyone. We are a sovereign country," said Roberto Micheletti, who was named caretaker president to serve out Zelaya's term, which ends this year. Unlike Tehran, where hundreds of thousands protested the election, the streets of Tegucigalpa have remained calm. No one has been shot, beaten with clubs or run down by thugs on motorcycles. Just whose side is Barack on in Latin America? Though elected as a center-right candidate, Zelaya has moved into the orbit of Chavez, whose idea it was to change the Honduran constitution to get Zelaya another term. Hugo even provided the ballots. In Latin America, term limits have been written into constitutions to prevent a return to the time of the dictators and presidents-for-life. The folks who put Zelaya aboard that plane are friends of the United States.
Why are Obama and Hillary Clinton meddling in the affairs of a friendly country, to dump over a friendly government, to reinstate a friend of Hugo's, whose goal is to bring Honduras into his anti-American "Bolivarian Revolution"? Like Barack's strange behavior in Trinidad, where he grinned away as Chavez handed him an anti-American tract, then listened for an hour to Daniel Ortega berate us for cruelty to Castro's Cuba, without protest or retort, Obama is coming off as one who shares the international left's view of the United States. There is another issue raised by Obama's denunciation of our friends in Honduras. Does he put ideology ahead of U.S. national interests? Does he prefer hostile democracies to friendly autocrats? What comes first with Obama? How to explain the universality of the attacks on Honduras -- when few United Nations members outside the West condemned Tehran and Hugo Chavez rushed to congratulate Mahmoud Ahmadinejad -- other than the fact that this "coup" removed an adversary of the United States? Anti-Americans stand by their own, no matter how they came to power, or retain power. Only in the West do we seem always prepared to abandon our flawed friends who do not measure up. This is a formula for eventually not having any friends. That Obama finds himself in camp with Castro's Cuba, Ortega's Nicaragua and Chavez, who is openly threatening Honduras, should tell him something about where his ideology is taking him, and us. One day, Obama is going to have to decide whether he wishes to be the darling of the international left or the unapologetic leader of the nation that is most resented and reviled by the international left. | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/3/2009 9:21:56 AM | So this is the only thing in that entire article about Zelaya himself and this coup...
as Zelaya was attempting an illegal referendum to change the Honduran constitution so he could run for another term. All the rest of it is nothing more than flatulent ramblings about Chavez and Iran but ZIP to do with Zelaya (except to say that they, along with the ENTIRE REST OF THE WORLD, oppose the coup)
And the stuff about Zelaya is , at best, half-truth and distortion.
He was not asking for a referendum to change the constitution, he was asking for a referendum for a constitutional conference (the kind of constitutional movement that has been sweeping through SA/CA for several years now) to see what THE PEOPLE wanted (you know, THE PEOPLE, as in DEMOCRACY).
And as to the "run for another term" BS, he couldn't run for another term even with the conference because the vote was set for 2009, an election he COULDN'T run in.
How does holding a refendum during an election he can't run in amount to trying to run again?
And more to the point: HOW DOES THAT MAKE HIM A "THUG"?
That's the problem with the Repub position on this, it makes no logical sense. Just like this article you posted to "prove" he was a "thug" (an article which, I will point out again, barely mentions him but rants on about Chavez and Iran).
And here is the final proof of what I have tried to get across in my original post, the words of the Repubs' mouthpiece himself:
Does he prefer hostile democracies to friendly autocrats? As I said before:
It's very interesting how Republican support for democracy suddenly flies out the window when it means being "on the same side" (that would be the side of democracy in this case) as Chavez and Castro.
Apparently, military coups are preferrable to democracy in their minds in such circumstances. | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/3/2009 10:33:44 AM |
Do we have any vital strategic or economic interest in Honduras? If not, then why bother to comment one way or the other. Apparently the Repubs (as evidenced by Buchanan's illogical ramblings posted above) see this as an opportunity to do some "old-school Red Baiting", push their "Obama as un-American" meme and try to return to their "Better Dead than Red" policy of supporting military coups in CA/SA. | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/3/2009 11:59:00 AM | Maybe obama has another reason to support the want-to-be dictator.
Rep. Jose Serrano, D-N.Y., introduced legislation in the House to repeal the 22nd Amendment to the Constitution, which limits presidents to two consecutive terms or 10 years in office. Serrano’s justification for the bill is that, until 1951, nothing prevented a president from serving more than two terms.
Additionally, a grass-roots movement is under way to make Obama's third term possible. A Web site, End22.com, is dedicated to abolishing the 22nd Amendment and is asking supporters for donations to make it happen. Grass-roots my a**!! " 'cult-like’ followers to support the notion that a democratically-elected leader who is ‘loved’ and ‘adored’ has carte blanche once elected — just serve as long as he wants because the people demand it, because the people want it, because the people love it.”, Limbaugh. This is Honduras's governments business. We should support there decision. | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/3/2009 12:26:23 PM | because the people demand it, because the people want it, because the people love it So apparently, "of the people, by the people, for the people" has no meaning to Limbaugh and his Republican ditto-heads.
That's a good thing to know for future reference
We should support there decision. I keep saying it and you keep proving it
...Republican support for democracy suddenly flies out the window when it means being "on the same side" (that would be the side of democracy in this case)...
...military coups are preferrable to democracy in their minds... | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/4/2009 6:04:01 PM | Yea, we pretty much like to follow the rules of law, and the constitution. Not the rule of the masses or feelings. I also believe they should have turn limits for congress. I guess we wont have congress voting them selves turn limits though.  | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/6/2009 7:18:37 PM | Yea, we pretty much like to follow the rules of law, and the constitution.
To pretty much follow the rule of law is not a democracy...its kinda like democracy.
I dont defend Zelaya, but if he was breaking the law, then charge him and give him a trial, then if convicted...remove him from office. If the Hondurain people want to extend the President's term by legal means, then we all should respect the will of the Hondurian people.
Even if it is of a Leftist slant. | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/6/2009 9:55:05 PM | I agree with you saguy, it is Honduras' decision on whom they want as president. It's not chavez, castro, or obama decisions to make. Honduras is still a democratic country. Since I don't know all the laws of Honduras, I'm just going to take there word that zelaya broke the law, and he is charged with crimes. I believe the congress in Honduras said they would put him on trial, if he comes back. I just don't know why obama is taking the side of chavez, castro, and ortega. Maybe he's wanting to score points with them? Maybe he thinks they are just real good, smart guys? Maybe his inexperience in foreign matters are getting the best of him, and he's just taking their lead? Maybe it's just because obama is a socialist, and he thinks every nation should be socialist? | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/7/2009 12:06:35 AM | WASHINGTON, July 6 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Leading members of the Honduran National Congress and private sector and former members of the Honduran Judiciary will hold a press conference in Washington, D.C., to speak on recent events in Honduras. The press conference will be held Tuesday, July 7, 2009, at 3:00 p.m. in the Murrow Room of the National Press Club (529 14th Street, NW). The delegation will be traveling to Washington for several days of meetings with United States policymakers to clarify any misunderstandings about Honduras' constitutional process and to discuss next steps to ensure the preservation of the country's democratic institutions. I wander if hillary will want to talk with this goup.  | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/7/2009 3:36:22 AM | Since I don't know all the laws of Honduras, I'm just going to take there word that zelaya broke the law, and he is charged with crimes ......................................................
if he broke the law, try him...dont run him off at the point of a gun. They say he was going to change the constitution. Hes been accused of a lot of things...I dont take any Governments Word on anything, not even my Government. Prove your allegations in a court of law.
If the Hondurian Supreme Court gave orders for the Military to Oust Zelaya, what faith can people have in them being Impartial on trying Zelaya. | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/8/2009 12:54:21 PM |
I agree with you saguy, it is Honduras' decision on whom they want as president. It's not chavez, castro, or obama decisions to make. Honduras is still a democratic country. Since I don't know all the laws of Honduras, I'm just going to take there word that zelaya broke the law, and he is charged with crimes. I believe the congress in Honduras said they would put him on trial, if he comes back. I just don't know why obama is taking the side of chavez, castro, and ortega. Maybe he's wanting to score points with them? Maybe he thinks they are just real good, smart guys? Maybe his inexperience in foreign matters are getting the best of him, and he's just taking their lead? Maybe it's just because obama is a socialist, and he thinks every nation should be socialist?
Uh, you realize that the military coup ousted an *elected* president? And Obama sided with the people who are protesting the coup? | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/8/2009 3:16:15 PM |
Teenager killed in Honduras as soldiers fire on Zelaya supporters at airport Hannah Strange in Tegucigalpa
Shoes from the wounded marked the trail to the makeshift shrine at Honduras international airport, where flowers and an icon of Jesus lay in a pool of blood.
“The soldiers are terrorists” declared a note there. “Murderers!” screamed the protesters massed behind the torn metal fence surrounding the airstrip. Minutes earlier, soldiers had stepped through the fence and sprayed gunfire into the crowd, killing a teenager and wounding at least 30 people.
The demonstrators had massed at the airport to await the arrival of the ousted President, Manuel Zelaya, on Sunday afternoon. He had urged them to greet him as he attempted to return to Honduras after being forced to flee a week earlier. Those behind the coup said that Mr Zelaya had been trying illegally to amend the Constitution to allow him to run for re-election — a charge he denies. The interim government had warned that it would not let Mr Zelaya land, but about ten thousand supporters surged through the capital anyway. They were halted by police and soldiers along the way but, one by one, the army lines pulled back as protest organisers negotiated their advance. It was a peaceful demonstration, the frustrations kept in check by a carnival atmosphere, with music and ice-cream sellers weaving through the crowd.
A rumour had spread that the military were prepared to fire on protesters, but nobody believed it.
“They’re just trying to intimidate us,” one organiser urged through a loudspeaker. The mood remained calm as the crowds reached the airport, where soldiers and military vehicles blocked the runway. A few demonstrators began to tear at the metal fence separating them from the airstrip, but others pulled them back and no attempt was made to enter.
Then several soldiers walked through and began firing indiscriminately. Isis Murillo, 19, was killed; around him, protesters began running, or dropping as they were hit.
“It was chaos, we didn’t know what was happening,” said Dariela Pineda, 29. Standing by the shrine amid trails of blood, she pleaded with The Times to “tell the world what is happening to us. We need help, we need international intervention.”
At about 5.20pm, the protesters stopped to cheer as Mr Zelaya’s aircraft circled low overhead, but as military reinforcements grouped on the runway it was forced to abort its landing, instead flying to neighbouring Nicaragua and then to El Salvador.
There, flanked by a host of Latin American leaders, including Cristina Kirchner of Argentina and Rafael Correa of Ecuador, Mr Zelaya implored his country’s military to “stop repressing the Honduran people”.
Few heard his call, however, with the TV signal cut as the interim government tightened a media blackout. None of the Honduran news channels — all of them supportive of the coup — reported the events at the airport or Mr Zelaya’s attempted landing. Instead, they gave over the airwaves to the new “President”, Roberto Micheletti, speaking from the presidential palace. He insisted that his government “did not want one drop of blood spilled”.
Across the border, Mr Zelaya discussed his next move with regional leaders and heads of international organisations, all of whom have roundly condemned the coup. But despite its isolation, the new government shows no signs of relenting. “We are the authentic representatives of the people,” Mr Micheletti said.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6652940.ece Soldiers firing indiscriminately nto crowds of protesters?
An ever tightening media blackout suppressing all possible pro-Zelaya reporting?
Do we really need anything more to realize that this is just another installment in the "banana republic" military coups that have plagued democracy in SA for so long? | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/8/2009 8:59:38 PM | Gee, is that what this thread is about???
Uh, you realize that the military coup ousted an *elected* president? Maybe you didn't realize their courts, charge him with a crime? Did you know their legislature impeached Zelaya? I guess you knew that the military didn't help keep their president in power, but they obeyed their law? It's not the way we do it here, but then again, it is their country.
And Obama sided with the people who are protesting the coup? chavez? castro? ortega? Or did you mean the Hondurans in the streets protesting? The ones who didn't start protesting until the liberal media got there.
"banana republic" Now Hillary has stepped in, and seem to have gotten the negotiations underway. I guess this was above obamas pay grade any ways..........  | |
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| So Much for the Repub mantra of Spreading Democracy Posted: 7/8/2009 9:16:44 PM |
chavez? castro? ortega? Or did you mean the Hondurans in the streets protesting? The ones who didn't start protesting until the liberal media got there. Your quote above says it all you have the libertarian influenza , there is no cure for it | |
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