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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/2/2009 7:55:09 PM | I haven't posted in a long time, as life keeps getting in the way of my virtual fun, but here goes a long post.
I have come here in hopes of helping my friend of 22 years and her 8 year old daughter.
Lately her daughter has been exhibiting some pretty erratic behaviour.
She is one of 5 kids all under the age of 11. One of which diagnosed with autisim.
Lying has always been a problem. When she was 4, I was over, and her dad was playing with her, during the horsing around she bumped her head pretty hard on the floor. She went to school the next day and told her teacher that she got a lump on her head because daddy hit her. That didn’t go over well.
Within the last few weeks my friend has expressed various concerns.
1. She cut her hair, then hid a pair of scissors and a knife along with the clump of hair in her brother’s bed. When asked about it she lied, even though her parents could visibly she had done it. When asked why she did it, she didn’t know why, she just did.
2. Her school bus picks her and her oldest brother up at the bottom of her street. Last week of school she decided that she needed a sweater from home, she walked home and hid on the side of her house. At this point, her mom thinks she is with her brother at the school bus, and her brother thinks she is in the house. The bus driver expresses he can no longer wait for her and that her mom will drive her to school. She never went into the house, instead she waiting for the bus to leave and decided to walk to school by herself. Along the way she met up with two boys. Anything could have happened to her.
3. She has picked up a habit of stealing, then lying about it. She has stolen from teachers, other kids, her parents, was caught going through her grandfathers pants. She never knows why she does it.
4. Her parents bought a trailer which they have at a trailer park/campsite family oriented park. Their trailer is right on the edge of the parks pool so that the kids can have some freedom and a fun place to be at for the summer. She decided last weekend to call 911 from the parks payphone for no apparent reason. They are currently on watch for her behaviour and any further incidents may result in the family being kicked out of the facility.
5. Today she stole candy from the parks variety store. Then lied about it. Now, mom would like to have her return it, but because the family is on watch she fears that in doing so they will be expelled from the facilities. Now although she has been punished for today’s actions, nothing is being done as a corrective action.
My husband and I first offered to take her for the summer, my husband works from home and I work out of the home. After my impulsive offer, I decided to retract on a month because my step children (11 and 9) are with their grandparents for all of July and although I trust my husband, I do not trust the child and I fear she might lie and say my husband hit her or something that might land us in hot water for wanting to help. I did communicate my concern to my best friend (she understands), so I then suggested she come for the month of August.
My friend is at the end of her rope, she is crying to me for help and this was all I could think of.
Am I doing the right thing? If I treat her like my kids, and have her follow the rules and structure of my household, might this at all help her?
What else can I do to help? | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/2/2009 8:19:00 PM | Really?
Except my friend has taken that route through the school systems.
Not to make excuses for her as there are some parental behaviours that should change. But she is part of a family of 7 (the money for weekly psychiatric help for this child is just not there)
... And I know what you're thinking... don't have so many kids (I agree with you, unfortunately, the kids all exist and I am looking outside the box to help her)
Suzy | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/2/2009 8:24:18 PM | itsallinthesoul
She was while in school. Her parents can't afford it outside of school.
I do blame the parents, don't get me wrong. I do think that the reason she behaves like this is because there just isn't enough attention to go around.
Too much focus is given by the parents to the bad behaviour and not enough positive attention is being given. I know the problem is bad. As far as I am concerned I think the entire family could benefit from some outside help.
I am only trying to do what I can do. | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/2/2009 8:30:41 PM | OP, there isn't enough information on this post to be able to help your friend and their daughter. In order to help, I would need more background : more information about how she lives, her parents, do they work or not, how do they parent, what kind of rules / boundaries they enforce and how they enforce it, are they together or are they divorced / separated, what kind of atmosphere is there at home, etc.
If your friend is 22 years old, and she has an 8 years old, it means she had the baby when she was 14 years old? And she has 5 kids, the oldest being 11 years old - which means her first kid would have been conceived when she was 11 years old? You will have to clarify that part because so far, it doesn't make too much sens unless she adopted many of these kids or act as a foster parent.
It would also help to know how her parents reacts when she is lying and how they have handled the situation so far. Finally, some background on her life story would help: was there any major events in her past, death in the family, or similar events, especially around the time she started to have these behaviors.
I have a few ideas, but I don't want to speculate before I know more. You can email me privately if you want. Good luck to your friend! | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/2/2009 8:45:14 PM | OP, if you feel the parents parenting is part of the problem, it wouldn't cost nearly as much if they took some parenting classes or read some good books on parenting strategies. They may open their eyes to the benefits of positive vs negative reinforcement approaches to parenting.
She is obviously attention - seeking but why is she doing it? That is the question that needs to be answered before anyone can truly help this little girl. From your observations, I am hearing that you think they need to spend more time focused on the positive things she does, every child on this planet could benefit from that and it feels so much better to both parent and child than negative attention that punishments bring.
Have you talked with her yourself (the child) to ascertain why she does what she does? | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/2/2009 8:48:25 PM | There are programs out there that will help children for free... So don't use the money excuse... The child has issues, probably has to do with being part of a large family, among other things I'm sure...
You also say that there are some Parenting things that should change, well there are Parenting classes offered at Hospitals and other places, most of the time those are free as well... | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/2/2009 8:59:00 PM | As I see it from presentation -OP- the problem is within the child, regardless parental influence.
It can be certainly be a reflection from poor parental behaviours but, as long the child's problems are not identified by its root nothing can be done for a real "fix".
Your perceptions can be valids, but is not a professional opinion. The focus should be in looking for that professional help.
If the income is below certain limit, due the number of members of the family, there is qualifications for application for assistance through Medicare.
If they have a child with autism, even with a stable income and medical insurance, they may qualify for extra benefits due to non-affordable permanent and special care. It will be easier the paperwork for an extension to another family member, than the initial claim to open a new line of support.
I'm speaking for at least in the State of Nevada, with personal experience with a family whom I'm involved with being the godfather of one of their chidren.
Get the documentation from school officials who attend the child in question and contact the School District for supporting recomendations.
Contact the Social Security Admon and check for the guideline for Medicare benefits. Check for the local office for processing application and -assuming the almost always initial rejection for application- look for a civil lawyer on pro-bonus work through several agencies like Red Cross, Catholic Charities, United Way, Salvation Army and the network of social assistance for low income families. | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/2/2009 9:05:01 PM | When I said my friend of 22 years I meant... we have been friends for 22 years she is in her 30's
her parents are divorced and she had somewhat of a questionable childhood. She was always over emotional. When we were kids, there was no in between for her, she either liked something or hated it.
I hate to say this, but I don't think she is a model parent. She always complains about how bad her kids are, truth is, when she was 6 months pregnant, she went on a vacation with her husband and my husband and I babysat her 4 "bad" kids for the week. I mean they weren't angels, but they followed our rules for the most part.
Her 11 year old is a result of a failed first marriage. As a result I feel the step dad is hard on him and tends to treat him differently. He is expected to do a lot for the household and younger siblings.
Example: We had the 7 over for a night over a weekend, 1 of the kids didn't have pj's and the other had pants and no shirt. The oldest got yelled at for not packing his siblings clothes proper. I told then that it wasn't a big deal and that we had extras for our kids and that it really didn't seem like something he should be responsible for.
Their house is always very loud. There is alot of screaming, the kids with the kids, the adults with the adults and the adults with the kids.
Our kids aren't used to this, I consider our parenting style firm but fair. We don't yell at our kids, we talk to them and make our displeasure known, sometimes there are consequences and when there is a privledge is usually taken away.
During a recent visit we entered into a complete chaos.
My step son brought tears to my eyes on the quiet drive home when he said "You know, they yell alot at their kids, I didn't ever see them hug, kiss or tell the kids they loved them once all day. You treat us better then they treat their kids and you're not even our real mom"
I have tried talking to my friend. I have given her all the advise I know to give. I hear many reasons why and lack of money and an excuse to not be able to do move past this hump.
Their youngest two, admittedly require a lot of attention, one being autistic the other is 2. I care for the kids, and allthough I don't agree with her parenting style I care for her as well. | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/2/2009 9:06:05 PM | get them to search on Youtube under "children EFT" and do it daily.
It's FREE and it WORKS!
A teddybear for surrogate tapping may be good for the eight year old in the beginning.
It also helps to see a professional for a few times, it's an art, but if money is tight, just get them to learn from the videos on youtube. | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/2/2009 9:15:24 PM | OP, thank for your the added details. Although this is only a few details and we would need to go further on this, this is as I suspected. I am studying as a Family Life Educator and this is one of the first thing we learned: most problems with a "problem child" actually lies in the environment and the parents. This is also why most of the professional intervention within families are actually interventions on the parents, not on the children.
Every kid needs some attention, and every kid will react in different way when his needs for attention isn't met. The 8 years old has her own way to attract attention, and it works, even though it is negative attention.
Yes, the kid might need some professional counseling, but this is bound to fail until the parents change and evolves. A professional counselor might help her to relieve some of her accumulated griefs and tensions and find better ways to get attention, but ultimately the root cause lies in the parenting and need to be addressed. Does your friend lives in Canada? If so, I can direct her toward a list of available parenting workshop and courses that will greatly help her and all of the kids, should she be willing to attend. In US, however, I don't have all my references ready, so you would need to make some search, depending on states. Let me know and I'll see if I can help. Good luck! | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/2/2009 9:16:47 PM |
There are programs out there that will help children for free... So don't use the money excuse... The child has issues, probably has to do with being part of a large family, among other things I'm sure...
You also say that there are some Parenting things that should change, well there are Parenting classes offered at Hospitals and other places, most of the time those are free as well...
I wholeheartedly agree with you, and trust me these are not MY excuses, these are the excuses I am given. I don't want to seem that I am going against anyone's advise on seeking help as I have suggested this time and again.
I have no legal rights here I have no say in decision making, these are all things that are out of my hands. I guess this post isn't about seeking the obvious (the outside professional help) but more so my trying to make a difference in helping this child myself and if she does come stay with us for a month. Is just treating her as we treat our kids enough? Is there something more I should do? Am I doing the wrong thing in offering to have her stay with us? | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/2/2009 9:26:45 PM | | Well if you've already tried these avenues and they are unwilling to try, then the problem is no longer yours and you need to withdraw yourself from it a little bit... It's apparently eating you up inside and that's not doing anyone any good... | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/2/2009 9:27:26 PM |
Is just treating her as we treat our kids enough? Is there something more I should do? Am I doing the wrong thing in offering to have her stay with us?
It depends.
No, treating her just like you treat your own kids isn't enough, at least at the beginning. Until you reach the point where the kid feels "safe" and feels like she has your attention without the need for these things, it might be difficult. In other words, you need to create the attachment link between her and you first. You are going to have to be build an atmosphere of trust. Which means when she will try her lying and attention-scheme (and she will), you need to break the pattern - which will take a lot of patience and love, and the use of positive parenting techniques - not negative ones. And that's without factoring in your other kid's relation to her.
But it could help her tremendously, too. Which is a double edged sword, as she might attach and find it difficult to return to her home after. One month isn't very long either. What does she think about it? Does she want to spend some time with you? Did you talk to her about it, see how she reacts? | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/2/2009 9:48:04 PM | I haven't talked to the child yet. I presented this to my friend today and she is considering it.
I did ask my friend for 1 favor.
1.) I don't want her threatening the kid for the next month with "If you don't behave we're sending you to auntie suzy's house" (I don't want to have the child come here under the impression that it's a punishment, or that daddy and mommy are treating her as if she is a disposable)
I know one month is not enough, but it's one more month then she has now. I also thought about the "going home after" and I think that a visit home in between her stay here with the parents telling her that they miss (if they can muster the courage to utter the words) would prob give her some confidence.
I know I won't have any problems having her come on her own, unless of course being here is being used as a threat by her parents. | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/2/2009 9:52:16 PM | Mopegunz
I know you are right when you say that the problem is not mine. In my heart of hearts however, I have known these kids all their lives, they call my thier aunt. They are estranged by most of their immediate family. I am pretty much the closest thing they have for family besides their parents.
I feel an obligation to them and I don't want to be "another family member who just walked out on them" | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/2/2009 10:19:56 PM | | I agree that they need family counseling and individual. The family isn't functioning and they will have worse problems. This little girl is screaming for help! She is doing everything she can for attention, but she doesn't know how to ask for the attention she truly needs. If her family doesn't get help they need, next year, this little girl may not be around. Ok, I have read one too many horror stories, I admit it, but there is the possibility that the wrong person will take notice of her. | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/2/2009 10:26:40 PM |
Not to make excuses for her as there are some parental behaviours that should change. But she is part of a family of 7 (the money for weekly psychiatric help for this child is just not there)
... And I know what you're thinking... don't have so many kids (I agree with you, unfortunately, the kids all exist and I am looking outside the box to help her)
I was thinking that they need to find the money. And have her evaluated for ODD among other issues. Which a child psychologist would be able to help them with. | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/2/2009 10:39:33 PM | I have 6 children myself and I am a single mom. I am also a school bus driver for the emotionally disturbed. This child may now take the "Big Bus" but soon will be on the Short Bus! This child without a doubt needs some counseling and is reaching out for help and only has received negative attention so it worked so she continues to do it! The family seems completely dysfunctional and needs to go to parenting classes. The District where she attends school probably has resources available if they inquire at the Children's Welfare and Services Office of their district. You state this child is going to counseling during school....it's not just the child that needs counseling! The Parents need it more than the child! This is definitely a case of LACK OF PARENTING!!!! This is not a case of too many kids in the house! I have seen the damage done by lack of parenting and environmental damage done to children by the parents! WAKE UP PEOPLE THESE KIDS ARE OUR FUTURE!!!! There are many resources available for your friend's child but really she needs to be involved in her kids' lives! This one in particular is DYING for attention!!!! Good luck!!! I hope the child gets the attention she deserves!!!!  | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/3/2009 4:54:31 AM | You nailed it busdriver. As many have said as well.
I know that at some point I'm going to have to talk to her and possibly her husband.
Not an easy thing to do. To be honest I dread it.
How do you tell someone they are being bad parents when in their mind they firmly believe there is nothing wrong with what they are doing? They will most likely take ofense to anything i have to say regarding the issue.
I know my friends and I know that idealy, I walk up to them tell them my concerns and they say "whoa, I didn't realize, but since you mention it, we should seek some help" On the more realistic side.
They have ousted family members who have pointed things out to them. I'm not sure if it was here that I mentioned, but I am pretty much the closest thing those kids have right now to family. They have abandonment issues that mom has instilled in them from having family just get frustrated and prefering to walk away.
If you can't handle the first few why would you keep having children? They are all starved for attention.
My hope is that once she has been here and demonstrated a different behavior, that I can then talk to the parents and say, ya know, i don't think it's her, I think it's you. | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/3/2009 5:29:38 AM | She was while in school. Her parents can't afford it outside of school.
I do blame the parents, don't get me wrong. I do think that the reason she behaves like this is because there just isn't enough attention to go around.
Too much focus is given by the parents to the bad behaviour and not enough positive attention is being given. I know the problem is bad. As far as I am concerned I think the entire family could benefit from some outside help.
Unfortunately, I think this child is exhibiting the beginnings of* antisocial personality disorder, which is also known as sociopathic personality disorder. This is extremely serious, and very difficult to treat. This child needs extensive treatment RIGHT NOW to try to prevent it from getting even worse. Her parents have insurance, right? Many insurance policies cover mental health sessions. These parents need to find the money somehow for treatment. They will have to scrimp and get by on less or something, because this little girl is headed for a crisis.
*please note I am not saying she has this disorder, just that she is exhibiting signs of the beginnings of it.
"Personality disorders have their onset in late adolescence or early adulthood. Doctors rarely give a diagnosis of personality disorder to children on the grounds that children's personalities are still in the process of formation and may change considerably by the time they are in their late teens. But, in retrospect, many individuals with personality disorders could be judged to have shown evidence of the problems in childhood."
For more information about this, please read:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antisocial-personality-disorder/ds00829 | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/3/2009 6:45:03 AM | OP, I can so relate to feeling the way you feel when confronted with a parenting style of your friends and lots of yelling in the home. I know such a family and it really really REALLY bothers me to hear the way in which they treat their children but alas, there is not much one can do. What you are talking about is verbal/emotional/psychological abuse and it has devastating effects on some children who carry the scars into adulthood. I rarely see any spontaneous signs of affection or words of love exchanged between the Mom and the children. Dad is rarely at home (not that I blame him!) but I have seen some spontaneous affection between him and the children at least. Their sibling relationships are a bit twisted too in that they treat each other really poorly, trying to set each other up all the time to get into trouble and they get away with it which only perpetuates it and makes Mom even more angry with them.
I've talked to Mom quite a lot but at the end of the day, she has to decide how she wants to parent her children. Over the years I have known the family though, Mom has slowly begun to change some things and is copying the style I use with my children more and more and that is the best I can hope for really. I understand that for Mom it is hard for her to control her anger because of her own psychological issues (she is OCD and not on meds/in therapy and her triggers are noise and well...kids are noisy little creatures).
The family does try to involve me in the humiliation of their children and I don't play that game, at least not the way they want me to  At those times, after I listen to the parent, I turn my attention to the child and ask him/her what happened, why they did what they did and how they feel about everything, what they did, how their parent(s) reacted, all of it.....then we talk about what they might have done wrong and how they can do it differently next time and achieve a different result. I validate their feelings and although the parents try to invalidate them immediately, I hold firm and continue to speak only to the child. Later on, if they have something to say to me about what I said/did, they can take it up with me and they have. It is those moments I cherish because it gives me an opportunity to explain to them my philosophy...I do not apologize to them for what I said or what I did. Yet, they continue to do it.....perhaps it is their attempt to learn..... | |
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| 8 years old, surely there is something that can be done
Posted: 7/3/2009 1:50:53 PM | OP, the child's family feeds off each other so while this child may often be the catalyst, I bet she will be a totally different child at your house.
Treat her like your kids, but also spend some time talking to her. Our house is loud, but we talk to each other all the time. Many people don't seem to talk to their kids, many of the kids I see are teens but they all go their separate ways, spend no time together as a family. This family spends time together but their togetherness is to ignore the kids it sounds like.
With the stealing, they have now taught their child that stealing is okay if you don't get caught. They expect the child to be accountable but they aren't willing to do the right thing if it means a loss of fun for the family, boohoo. Sometimes that kind of consequence can make sure they don't do something more stupid when the are older like getting arrested for shop-lifting at the mall with truly serious consequences. They have no money for counseling but if I read correctly, they have money to buy a trailer and/or lease the spot? There are places with counseling with a sliding scale.
My daughter is the eldest, it has always just been me even when her dad was still here. When it became truly just us she was around that age. She picked up a lot of slack with her brothers, finishing up dinner, or nuking something. My daughter would also get things together when we went to grandma's if I was in the middle of a deadline. I can't imagine why with two of them the kid would be responsible for getting clothes, etc. together and why it was even a big deal for one night. Where does the line of the older sibling responsibilities that is okay end? I think that depends on the kid. My daughter complains sometimes but when her nose isn't out of joint to begin with she readily admits that she started doing some things to give me a break, not because she was asked or told to do something. My sister-in-law is a SAHM home schooling five kids and I even see this in their family, which I don't get, but apparently the 12-year-old girl has raised the 2-year-old more than her mom.
This is a hard age but usually if the kid is connected to mom or dad, things are okay. I think they mistakenly believe this girl can take care of herself and doesn't need parents the same way her younger siblings do. As far as you, care but try to take your heart out of it if you can. I think the month sounds good, gives the parents a break, gives the kid a break, even people with fairly normal situations can use that from time to time because with the hormones, some discord seems a given. | |
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