| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 5:40:39 AM |
Flag dispute erupts in Crivitz
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WAUSAU, Wis. (AP) — A U.S. flag being flown upside down as a protest in a small northern Wisconsin village was seized by police before a Fourth of July parade. The businessman flying the flag claims police trespassed and stole his property.
The American Civil Liberties Union is researching whether to take legal action against the village of Crivitz for violating Vito Congine Jr.'s, First Amendment rights.
The ACLU's state director, Chris Ahmuty, said the decision to seize the flag appears to be blatantly illegal. Police gave it back the next day.
Congine says he flew the flag upside down outside the restaurant he wants to open to protest the village board's decision to deny him a liquor license. Marinette County Sheriff Jim Kanikula said it's not illegal to fly the flag upside down as a signal of distress, but many people think it's disrespectful.
http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2009/07/11/wi/02wis.txt
Talk about a violation of the first amendment. The US Supreme Court has held over and over that symbolic speech is just as well protected under the first amendment as written or verbal speech is, no matter how disrespectful that speech may or may not be. Mr. Congine has every right to fly the flag how he wants, and I hope that they do end up suing because this, to me, is absolutely ridiculous. | |
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| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 7:16:25 AM | Hmm...perhaps that's why the RCMP were eyeballin gme on one Canada Day while Iw as at Parliament hill. I held a flag with it upside down to show that this country was in trouble and needed help.
Some situations are not right though. So the guy couldn't get a liquor license. He knew that before he went into the business where he did.
Although he may well have had a right to fly the flag upside down....I don't think he should have on that day for that purpose. Some places he wouldn't have been allowed to even go nto business...he should have been thankful he had that, and celebrated that fact. Then continued to protest at a later time in an appropriate manner. | |
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| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 7:29:27 AM | Yup, an absolute violation of Mr. Congine's rights. I'm not sure suing the city would resolve anything though.
It's already illegal to violate someone's rights so no further interpretation of the law is needed. Monetary compensation? Nah, not in this case. He lost nothing other than 24 hours of upside down flag flying. Maybe make it so the *same people* cannot violate the rights of citizens of that town again while in service to that town? Maybe? Maybe just the personal satisfaction of winning a case against the city for violating the rights he holds as a United States citizen is worth suing? Dunno. Not sure I'd sue as long as my rights weren't further violated. Hmm, not sure, I haven't walked in the guy's shoes. | |
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| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 9:47:08 AM | lets see....a man intenionally breaks a federal law..and its a violation of his civil rights to stop him?
you folks better start to seriously rethink a few things.............ie.........how do you think any veterans felt seeing their flag displayed like that?......guess their feelings dont count huh?........and its fine to break any law you like?.....and claim your civil rights are being taken from you when your stopped?...........give me a break..you disgust me | |
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| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 9:48:23 AM |
Marinette County Sheriff Jim Kanikula said it's not illegal to fly the flag upside down as a signal of distress I always find it so laughable when the authorities tell you what you can do legally yet fail to mention what law was broken. | |
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| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 10:10:08 AM | I had to learn the rules over flag when I was in high school. They appear to be about the same as in that Congressional report.
That said, I routinely see at least 4-5 occasions oer year where I observe numerous violations of those rules, yet no one says or does a thing. A few years ago, I reported several flags that were being flown at night without any lighting whatsoever - they were simply left hoisted to endure whatever. I reported that to police and they could care less. The person I spoke to on the phone didn't even believe there were rules for flying a U.S. flag. So I contacted the violators directly and quoted them the law.
Hard to say if this guy was wrong or not - we aren't given all the facts. Depends on his REAL reason for flying it upside down as opposed to a news story's guess. It was definitely wrong of police to seize the flag. They had no grounds. However they will get away with it because that's the country we're becoming - seize first, ask questions and read the laws later.
If a person flies a flag upside down because they feel the existence of the country is in danger, I would find it hard to cite any violation whatsoever. | |
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| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 10:35:18 AM |
http://senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf Page CRS-7 answers the question.......... He and the ACLU have no leg to stand on......and if they[the city] wanted to get pissy....this is a federal violation and the guy may not want to take his chances.
lets see....a man intenionally breaks a federal law..and its a violation of his civil rights to stop him?
It's illegal to fly the flag at night without proper lighting either.
You guys really should learn the difference between law and customary practice
Following the link quoted above, the document includes the following statements
Thus, the Flag Code does not prescribe any penalties for non-compliance nor does it include enforcement
provisions; rather the Code functions simply as a guide to be voluntarily followed by civilians and civilian groups.
Notice that it says the Code is "a guide" and is "voluntary"
no federal agency has the authority to issue “official” rulings legally binding on civilians or civilian groups. Consequently, different interpretations of various provisions of the Code may continue to be made.
Notice that it says "NO federal agency" can issue "“official” rulings legally binding on civilians or civilian groups"
Congress enacted the Flag Protection Act of 1989 to provide criminal penalties for certain acts which violate the physical integrity of the flag.8 This law imposed a fine and/or up to one year in prison for knowingly mutilating, defacing,
physically defiling, maintaining on the floor, or trampling upon any flag of the United States. In 1990, however, the Supreme Court held that the Flag Protection Act was unconstitutional as applied to a burning of the flag in a public protest.
Notice that there is no mention of "flying upside down" or any variation on that.
If you read through section 8, Respect for Flag, it does not say "must never" be flown with the union down, it says "should never", clearly meaning that it is undesireable but not legally prohibited.
No place, in that entire document does it say it is illegal to fly the flag upside down or even at night without lighting. All it ever says is that it is not desireable.
The law is not Humpty-Dumpty where words can mean whatever you choose them to mean, it is very specific and nowhere does it make it illegal to fly the flag upside-down. | |
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| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 10:44:49 AM |
On the national level the Federal Flag Code1 provides uniform guidelines for the
display of and respect shown to the flag. In addition to the Code, Congress has by
statute designated the national anthem and set out the proper conduct during its
presentation.2 The Code is designed “for the use of such civilian groups or
organizations as may not be required to conform with regulations promulgated by one
or more executive departments” of the federal government.3 Thus, the Flag Code
does not prescribe any penalties for non-compliance nor does it include enforcement
provisions; rather the Code functions simply as a guide to be voluntarily followed by
civilians and civilian groups.
Got the above from the link that r90sboxer posted.
http://senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf
I get angry when I see flags from other countries flown at the same height as Old Glory. All that can be done is just let that store owner know you are offended and will not shop at his store. He probably hires illegals also.
As far as flying the flag upside down, I have to say the guy was an idiot for doing it for the reason he stated.
George | |
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| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 10:47:24 AM | I don't see any Federal law violation at all in this case. You can find this written about the Flag Code in the pdf file posted in r90sboxer's post:
The Flag Code is a codification of customs and rules established for the use of certain civilians and civilian groups. No penalty or punishment is specified in the Flag Code for the display of the flag of the United States in a manner other than as suggested. Cases which have construed the cormer 36 USC 175 have concluded that the Flag Code does not proscribe conduct, but it is merely delclaratory and advisory.
The Flag Code is written with the word, "should", not "will" because the Flag Code is suggestive and advisory for civilians, not law. There's also another section you can read, the introductory section that states the same thing.
So yeah, in my opinion, the ACLU and Mr. Congine's have a leg to stand on, his rights were violated by illegal seizure of property, he wasn't committing any crime with or against the flag. Cops just can't come into your home, or on to your property, and seize something just because they don't like what they see, as long as no laws are being broken.
That being said, just because I agree that Mr. Congine's civil rights were violated, that doesn't mean I agree with the man, his reason for protest or his method of protest. I wouldn't think about flying our flag in any other way than those ways suggested by the Flag Code. Wait. I do fly the flag (4 of them) day and night, without illumination. No cops have taken any of my flags though! Nor would they have state or Federal law behind them to do so.
As far as the military personel who fought or fight to defend our flag, I honor them and respect those who honor our country. The flag doesn't belong to just the military men and women, the flag belongs to every person who is a citizen of the United States of America. | |
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| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 10:56:09 AM | Ok, so it's not illegal, I haven't actually read that document before, so I just knew what other people told me. I had heard that you aren't supposed to fly the flag at night without a light, and typically flying the flag upside down is reserved for when you're in distress.
While it may not have been illegal for the guy to fly the flag upside down, doing it over not receiving a liquor license is a bit petty and poor taste I think. The police probably shouldn't have removed the flag because of, doesn't look like they were in the right there either, but to sue them over it? That's just pointless. What's he going to sue for, a public apology? It's not like he lost any money over it. Now, why he was denied a liquor license may provide him something to sue over, but I don't know enough about what happened there to have a clue either way. | |
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| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 11:15:13 AM | | I think it was in poor taste seeing how it was The Fourth of July. He could protest any other day, but he chose one of our most patriotic holidays to disrespect the flag. What a schmuck. | |
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| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 11:20:48 AM |
The police probably shouldn't have removed the flag because of, doesn't look like they were in the right there either, but to sue them over it? That's just pointless. What's he going to sue for, a public apology? It's not like he lost any money over it. Now, why he was denied a liquor license may provide him something to sue over, but I don't know enough about what happened there to have a clue either way.
Some times you sue not for monetary damages, but for the other party to either admit their guilt or to change their course of action. Do phone calls hold police departments accountable? Not at all as they will say whatever they think you want to hear. Sue and start making a paper trail and they will change their manner of operation to conform with the law and respect people's rights.
Yeah, it's just a flag and a minor thing, but how would you feel when the police came to your door and arrested you or seized your property NOT because you were breaking any laws, just they did not like your lifestyle? | |
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| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 11:40:18 AM | In 1990, however, the Supreme Court held that the Flag Protection Act was unconstitutional as applied to a burning of the flag in a public protest.
Let me get this straight..i can legally burn a flag in America, but i can't legally burn leaves outside of my house in my own township?  | |
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| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 11:47:24 AM | Well, if you can convince the courts that burning leaves is a form of protest (only want to allow evergreens to be planted maybe?), then you probably could get them to strike down that law too. I'm not sure what you would protest where leaf burning makes sense, but if you want to try...
Burning the flag is legal as a form of public protest. Granted, it's pretty easy to come up with something to protest (especially in this day and age), so pretty much it's legal to burn a flag. | |
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| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 12:21:23 PM |
I get angry when I see flags from other countries flown at the same height as Old Glory. [//quote] Why? He probably hires illegals also. That's a stretch. | |
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| Upside Down Flag Controversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 12:30:11 PM | It always has been legal to burn the American flag.
Up until I read this latest (PC'd) accumulation of rules and practices, burning was the only way to properly dispose of a flag that was too worn to fly that I was aware of. not sure what the other methods they talk about are - nor are they, apparently. Back in the 1970's I found it strange that people were being arrested for "flag-burning" if the United States itself was burning them too. Just under different circumstances.
Yet, they were beaten, arrested, tried and convicted for it, while the returning vets were still neglected and cast aside. Ironic.
Far as I am also aware, the practice of flying a flag upside down to signal distress originated on the high seas, where immediate assistance was required. Usually because a ship was hopelessly disabled or actually going down. Long before radio and even Morse code/light codes. | |
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| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 1:27:28 PM | | Who really cares about the flag, it's a piece of cloth. Flying a flag upside down actually means "HELP". | |
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| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 1:29:41 PM | Perhaps it isn't the idea of the upside down flag that is a concern...but its' actual meaning and intent. Most people know that an upside down flag means "Help...I'm in trouble! Require assistance!" This guy didn't need assistance. He was crying "Wolf" for no reason at all. This could prove detrimental to those few who have use of an upside down flag. They'd be wondering if it really IS a problem that needs assistance or just some tool screwing around.
How would you like to dial 911 sometime and they wonder if you are actually in trouble? How much trouble? Is it serious enough for them to respond?
As is...I figure the guy did wrong...and I know I did that one day I held a flag upside down. I am sure I could have found a better way....and didn't. | |
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| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 4:48:33 PM |
the link provided was to a Congressional summation of the "Flag Act."
So, are you telling us that the Congressional summation of the "Flag Act" (sic) (and btw, It's not the "Flag Act", the last "Flag Act" was passed in 1818, it is the "Flag Code") incorrectly describes it as "a guide", that following it is "voluntary" for civilians, that it is merely "declaratory and advisory" and "does not proscribe conduct" (that means it doesn't say an act is illegal) as quoted below?
Thus, the Flag Code does not prescribe any penalties for non-compliance nor does it include enforcement provisions; rather the Code functions simply as a guide to be voluntarily followed by civilians and civilian groups.
Cases which have construed the former 36 U.S.C. § 17521 have concluded
that the Flag Code does not proscribe conduct, but is merely declaratory and
advisory
Here is a link to the actual "Flag Code" (Title 4 USC, c.1)
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/4/usc_sup_01_4_10_1.html
How about you show us where in the act it shows that the Congressional summation is incorrect in stating that.
When you're done then perhaps you can show us how this is true:
He and the ACLU have no leg to stand on......and if they[the city] wanted to get pissy....this is a federal violation and the guy may not want to take his chances.
Exactly what "chances" is he taking?
Perhaps you give us a link to the chapter and section that says the city or federal gov't can do one damn thing to him for this.
What charge, if any, could they lay? What penalty, if any, could they impose? What provisions, if any, allow them to even so much as confiscate the flag? What "chances", if any, is he taking by pushing the point? | |
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| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 5:42:21 PM |
...Congine says he flew the flag upside down outside the restaurant he wants to open to protest the village board's decision to deny him a liquor license. Marinette County Sheriff Jim Kanikula said it's not illegal to fly the flag upside down as a signal of distress, but many people think it's disrespectful....
Flying your flag upside down because you can not get a liquor license is about as intelligent as calling 911 because Burger King wont make you a western bbq burger. | |
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| Upside Down Flag Cntroversy
Posted: 7/11/2009 5:47:02 PM | Flying your flag upside down because you can not get a liquor license is about as intelligent as calling 911 because Burger King wont make you a western bbq burger
well said!!!, its sad that people died for that flag and thats all respect they get. | |
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