| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 6:09:55 PM | I recently watched a film on child trafficking in the US, Very Young Girls, it was quite harrowing. What really bothered me was the way 'Johns' or customers of pimps who perpetrated the sexual exploitation of young girls were merely slapped on the wrist, as opposed to the underage prostitutes themselves who often landed in jail.
The documentary examined New York, and it showed a 'John' school where they would go after court order. No jail time, no fine, no nothing. Just they had to attend these classes and could go back to life as normal.
It seems to look at the problem of sexual exploitation, it is myopic to only focuse on the victims without observing those who victimize them.
The documentary exposed the nightly commerce in human beings and illustrated there were HUNDREDS of men who came through certain areas to pick up these young women. This begs the question....
Who are the consumers? What are they like? Do you know someone who has paid for sex? (The movie showed a great cross-section of society in the room they gathered for the class. Breaking any notions it is merely creepy lowlifes. There seemed to be 'trustworthy' looking ones there as well.)
It seems only focusing on supply side of this problem will never fix it, there has to be a concerted effort to face the demand. And most likely this means men confronting other men about the issue. | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 6:27:50 PM | Would you help me with the definition of "very young girls." If it is below the age of 18, then you can sign me up for being against it as well. However, though I'm not a lawyer, I thought underage sex varies from state to state, and the laws (and well as if you'll live in prison - most other prisoners are frankly going to kill if you are) for a pedophile are pretty fierce.
As for 18 and older, I'm sorry but I'm a libertarian when it comes to the issue. The same with drugs. Cracking down on prostitution and drugs is a needless war that hardly ever makes a dent. However, if you really want to address it, address the societal aspects like employment and helping the needy. It isn't as glitzy, but the thing is that the reason why many women (and girls) turn to this is because they have very little opportunity otherwise - or they feel that though they can get government assistance, it is their only opportunity for significant monetary gains. And they are intertwined, where druggies turn to prostitution to fuel their habit.
And, amazingly, the money that we blow on "trying to arrest everyone and imprisoning them", we could use to help pay for the root causes of such activity like unemployment and welfare which government say they don't have money to do. And, at the end of the day, governments throughout the land are releasing non-violent criminal .... because there is no money to keep them imprisoned. California is paying everyone for IOUs. Me thinks the system doesn't work, so arresting more (or even shifting it) is a a fools errand. Hence the reason for my libertarian beliefs.
As for paying for sex, no I haven't and don't know who has. However, I've heard that sometimes guys like to pay for prostitutes to just discuss things as well - as silly as it seems on the surface. Since I don't know who has paid for sex, I couldn't answer that. | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 6:29:06 PM | The average age pimps target is 13. And most of the girls working the streets are actually well under 18. Even though they don't look it... act it... and have fake ids supplied by the pimps.
They are usually lured into it by promises they are the pimps girlfriend and he will take them away from whatever abusive or impoverished home they live in. He spoils them and acts as a surrogate father/lover mix. Then to 'break' them he has them raped by the pimp himself or a group of his friends or customers. He then fills their mind with the notion it was their fault, they are worthless, a hoe, they cannot go back to their homes and must live that life because they are 'marked' now.
Also, I was mistaken to characterize it as 'sex'. Sex implies some consensual nature. This is sex under duress. The threat of violence.
Also, you incorrectly assume they are druggies to begin with, more often than not, it is the pimp who encourages their initial drug use, as this is a solid tactic in secure their dependance on him. | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 6:42:06 PM | | I'll keep this as polite as I can. Are you really meaning to imply that all men are pedophiles who solicit sex with underage girls? You seem to be implying that in your last sentence. In fact, I suspect that the men who engage in this know that it's wrong. If you are however, suggesting that all, most, or many men are pedophiles who see nothing wrong with soliciting sex from underage girls, then, I suggest that you start by confronting the men in your own family. You see, I don't know any men that do this. Well, truthfully, to the extent of my relationships with other men, I don't know of any that do this. Perhaps they do. I can't see into their hearts, so, I don't truly know. However, I'm not going to go around lecturing my male friends with the presumption that they don't understand that soliciting underage sex is wrong. | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 6:42:32 PM | Yeah, as sad as it sounds ... are we talking about around 16 ... or definitely around 13? I thought the age of consent in many states is 16 ... but I'm not sure, I'll be honest.
If it is 13, then you're getting into pedophile area, and they're going to get shanked in prison anyways. Hard to toughen a death sentence.
And as another depressing concept, are the girls there completely against their will? Look, I agree that it is a very sad situation - not one that I would actively aspouse other guys to practice. Though I don't have an age range for my profile, I do it so others from the message boards can contact me about stuff on this boards ... I wouldn't date anyone below the age of 30 because it is my opinion we would share very few interests.
However, it still goes back to the issue of states still releasing non-violent criminals. People don't want to pay higher taxes, especially when many of them have been laid off due to the current depression. In an ideal world, they would all be locked up and the key thrown away ... but we are in the real world. Also, it just goes back to the notion that the harder you clamp down on something, the more prevalent that it becomes underground. There still is going to be the supply (many of these poor girls - as sick as the concept is, have few alternatives but starve on the streets since their homes are worse) and the demand (some of these guys do it due to mental obsessions - they're going to do it no matter what the crime penalty is).
But I do agree with you that the demand should be punished as much as the supply. I know for regular prostitution, they are publishing their names in the local newspaper to at least try to give more of a blow. The only thing that comes to mind is that law enforcement addresses supply more since you can make more impact that way (one prostitute can service multiple johns) ... that is the only logic that comes to mind.
They are usually lured into it by promises they are the pimps girlfriend and he will take them away from whatever abusive or impoverished home they live in.
Yeah, like I said ... address the causes of societal ills like unemployment and welfare, and in turn you'll address prostitution. These girls do it (or at least start) because they have nothing to turn back to, right? Why don't we spend the money on "rounding up the johns and imprisonment" on something silly like unemployment and welfare. Just a thought. | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 6:44:59 PM | | i watched a documentary on trafficking sexually in Russia...it was on cbc...and females were also involved...they were exploiting the young girls who were poor and lied to...they were told they were going to be nannies and then sold and exploited...it is terrible...and very sad....but especially when females do it too...i just do not understand | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 6:47:54 PM | Sun-devil, as I said, the Johns do not end up in jail.
Throwitome, And no, Im not implying all men are anything... I said we need men who are decent to take up this issue with their peers. Where did you read into that? Sounds like you are defensive about this... Hrm. | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 6:49:43 PM | | seems that money makes all things ok.......[the women selling young girls]......child molesters should be shot.............and those that sell children?......burned alive | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 6:49:55 PM | Sex has a responsibility factor tied to it. Once you remove it, it's either rape or prostitution.
I could never, ever see myself with another person who I had to pay for. Never have. If I really need a fix that badly, there's always porn/fantasy. 10 minutes tops.
Then, pie or a really good desert.
Cost less than $4, and I'm in a rockin' good mood.
Those who DO go whore-- all the way, have another game all-together. It's very power/moneyish with a huge helping of caveman psychology, including but not restricted to violence, humiliation and suffering. Sometimes it's the john doing 2 out of 3. These people INSIST on manipulative human contact in some way.
In my opinion, they should just have pie. | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 6:55:11 PM | Sun-devil, as I said, the Johns do not end up in jail.
Like I said, and as depressing as it might be, they probably never will. Prisons are releasing non-violent criminals due to budget tightening. California is paying for everyone with IOUs. People don't want to pay for higher taxes "to lock away every John and throw away the key" because many don't have jobs due to the recession.
Frankly and realistically, you're only going to get imprisoned the really, really severe cases like the ones doing it to kids and pre-teens, and publishing of their names in the newspaper and probation is all that is going to happen to the rest. What else are you going to do, and how are you going to pay for it? There is the ideal world, and then there is the one we wake up to every day.
That is why I propose addressing unemployment and welfare. Maybe by doing so, the home life never gets bad in the first place and the cycle of supply for prostitution never starts. | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 7:03:09 PM |
The average age pimps target is 13. And most of the girls working the streets are actually well under 18. Even though they don't look it... act it... and have fake ids supplied by the pimps.
This is a felony in every state as far as I am aware. If an adult has ex with a minor, that is also a felony. In Texas, it's not even a defense if the minor presents a forged driver's licesnse or other documentation to make the adult believe he/she is of age. Exactly what is your question, since there ARE laws against all of these things and the laws provide for serious jail time. If you're trying to confuse the issue by lumping this in with prostitution by women who are of legal age, you are engaging in a logical fallacy by not separating two very different things. | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 7:09:56 PM | | OK, fine. You aren't implying that all men are anything. There is that birds of a feather saying and the one about how you're known by the company you keep. So, in saying that decent men should take up this issue with their peers, either the peers of decent men are also decent men in which case there is no need for any of us to confront our friends with a lecture about how this is wrong. Or, decent men make a habit of associating with pedophiles and perverts who badly need our input to understand that what they are doing is wrong. Since I can't see why you would urge decent men to take up the issue with other decent men, I conclude that you must think that decent men knowingly associate with perverted pedophiles. | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 7:15:55 PM | The only way a man would confront another man about soliciting prostitution is if the second man admitted to soliciting a prostitute and even then it is likely to only happen if the second man admits that the prostitute was under age.
I have never heard another man admit to having sex with a prostitute and I have only heard third party claims of other men soliciting prostitution. I doubt this is something people would admit to often (and even less often if the prostitute was under age and could send the freak to jail).
All that being said, I don't think I am willing to walk down the street, confronting every male I come across. 
I'm all for the Nevada cure (at least in some parts of Nevada). Legalize it, tax it, restrict it to brothels with strict controls. | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 7:20:14 PM | The point is... appearances are deceiving. What might be considered a 'decent man' is only an image.
The linchpin is... this issue is really only being brough to light by women. The organizations for these girls... are entirely run by women... And nothing is happening. Why? Because it will take more than just women confronting men on this issue.
Can someone really be considered 'decent' if these tacitly allow something to go on, when they know it is wrong? Consider that men also do not make significant ideological shifts simply because women attempt to influence them. They are more shaped by their fathers, older brothers, and male friends than anything else. And thus far, troubling indifference is being perpetuated. Look at the male Supreme Court Justices who made light of a 13 year old girl getting strip searched at school. It took explaination from Justice Ginsburg to point out the context and the nature of that flagrant violation of rights and due process.
I also find it interesting that there is a notion you can 'divorce' the issue of pre-teen prostitutes exploited and the same people... just when they have grown older? Is it that hard to see that they aim to get them young so as to mentally break them down to the point they can keep them in their pimp workforce? Threaten them with death if they attempt to leave, therefor ensuring no matter how old she is she will continue to make them money...
Why is it that "Its Hard Out Here for A Pimp" was an Oscar-nominated song from a soundtrack? | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 7:29:43 PM | | Thanks for the reply CPHB. I understand better what you were driving at now. I'm sure in person it wouldn't have taken this long for communication to take place. | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 7:59:50 PM | I get the impression from this and your Empathy post that you seem to believe women are morally superior to men. I'm not saying that's the case, it's just the impression given by the two posts.
There are plenty of men who take part in anti-abuse groups (IE: Men Against Sexual Aggression [MASA]). Also, though the prevalence is lower there are a number of cases of sexual assault taking place with females as the perpetrators. We have all heard the cases of female teachers taking advantage of their underage students.
Can someone be decent if they tacitly allow something to go on when they know it is wrong? Yes. Not everyone is built to stand upon a soap box and one can only fight so many causes. It doesn't mean that the person "allowing" the activity to continue does not care, it just means he or she can not participate in the fight for whatever reason.
"It's Hard Out Here for A Pimp" may be Oscar-nominated simply because people believe it to be a good song without giving credit to the content. Furthermore, until I read your post, I did not associate pimps and prostitution to under-age girls. Perhaps the song is dedicated to Heidi Fleiss? | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 8:08:29 PM | Hopefully I've done some good if you can now be more aware of the trafficking of young girls in the street.
There is a world of difference from the prostitution operated and financed by the Heidi Fleisses and Eliot Spitzers of this world than what is going down in the urban ghettoes. | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 8:41:40 PM | No worries, I've learned nothing. I knew of human trafficking... it just wasn't the primary notion that came to mind when the word pimp is uttered.  | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 8:41:51 PM |
Why is it that "Its Hard Out Here for A Pimp" was an Oscar-nominated song from a soundtrack?
It is because it was from a very good movie, and in the movie the prostitute is a very strong and determined protagonist - the acting performances were superb. I only say that since I saw the movie. It's kinda like how "Saving Private Ryan" is an excellent movie, but I don't go around everywhere promoting the initiation of world wars.
edit: And, yeah, frankly I haven't learned much either - I already knew prostitution wasn't all that great. The problem is just that I still haven't learned how we are going to pay for locking away every John until they rot in jail when the world is in a recession and states are paying bills with IOUs. Especially when it is more effective to address the root causes to why young girls leave home and turn to prostitution instead of paying to lock everyone under the sun in jail. | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 8:51:59 PM | | Once upon a time in this country men did do something about things like this, but now thanks to lawyers and politicians, and mommys protecting their 32 year old little boys we go to jail if we give these men what they should get. Yea we could take care of the gang problem too, but if you want real men to step up to the plate and fix these problems then you have to stand behind them and not against them. | |
|
| 'Johns' and sexually exploited teens
Posted: 7/14/2009 11:30:33 PM |
Who are the consumers?
Everyday average people.
What are they like?
Everyday average people.
Do you know someone who has paid for sex?
Yes.
It seems only focusing on supply side of this problem will never fix it
Neither will focusing any attention on the demand side. As the demand is based on people wanting to have sex. So the only "solution" on the demand side is to either castrate/neuter people (which I'm all for as long as it's not me of course) or to make the consequences so severe and heinous that people won't be willing to risk it to have sex. IMO that is about equally heinous to something Hitler would come up with. As people still don't always wear condoms even though there are diseases around.
And most likely this means men confronting other men about the issue.
Men confronting men about it won't help. That's like saying if concerned men talked to other men then they would stop eating fast food.
Of course if people actually put effort into solving the "problem" the documentary industry would be out a couple trillion dollars a year. As it seems there are dozens that come out every year focused on some aspect of sex trafficking. Local and/or global.
Sex sells.
So really, documentary crews exploit prostitutes just as much as Johns.
So in an indirect way you, OP, helped support underage prostitution. | |
|
Home
login 
