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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Evolution.      Home login  
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 Riki19
Joined: 4/25/2009
Msg: 1
Evolution. Page 1 of 119    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)
Why do you suppose that the volumes of facts and data in support of evolution have been repressed in public schools. I know that religious leaders are opposed, but they aren't enough to persuade the boards to not teach the theory.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 2
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Evolution.
Posted: 7/19/2009 10:07:46 PM
Repressed? Generally speaking, I don't think that's the case. The evidence is voluminous, and even a research group can't possibly examine all evolutionarily relevant information. In public schools, only a basic introduction is needed, and even possible. "Evolution" does not need more "support" or "evidence". It is the explanation for the massive amount of evidence which continues to accumulate. The real obstacle is closed-minded retrogressive parents who would rather indoctrinate their children then have them learn to reason.
 Riki19
Joined: 4/25/2009
Msg: 3
Evolution.
Posted: 7/19/2009 10:11:04 PM
We both agree that there is no question of evolution, but we diverge at the whole repression thing. I didn't here one thing of evo. until college. Where are you from?
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 4
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Evolution.
Posted: 7/19/2009 10:36:12 PM
Canada. Evolution was in school 30+ years ago when I was in elementary. I don't recall much for coverage, but I DO recall the age-old succession of primates poster above the blackboard. Although there have been repeated attempts by the brain-dead to enforce their religious ideals and suppress science elsewhere [most notably parts of the USA], the courts have consistently ruled against them. The key issue here is, public education in both Canada and the USA must include science and exclude anything exclusive to particular religions. While individuals and groups; including school boards, may attempt to violate this, it is the government's [and court's] responsibility to prevent this. I don't know how a public school can even briefly violate these principles, but this may be largely due to too much "liberty" and too little centralized control [how else do you maintain a 'standard'?]. If there's 'suppression' in North America, I don't think it's systemic.
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 5
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Evolution.
Posted: 7/19/2009 11:24:59 PM
I skimmed through a friend's daughter's grade 9 homework and found tons of evolutionary concepts in her science work. I don't remember learning much about evolution when I was a kid, but I don't see any supppression now. Its reasonable to teach the basics in high school but more than that would be boring and unnecessary.
 Krebby2001
Joined: 6/12/2007
Msg: 6
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Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 12:21:37 AM
I've been an educator for over 20 years at the collegiate level. There's no suppression there. At the high school level, that's a different question. The basics of botany, geology, biology, etc. don't require discussion as to how the whole thing started, only explanation of how things are -- how photosynthesis occurs, how the eyes of flies enables them to see in multifaceted fashion, etc. The deeper questions of cause and effect are the responsibility of higher education, and there the theory of evolution is explained. So, all in all, I think that we're OK, for now. God Bless America.
 Andy687
Joined: 6/5/2008
Msg: 7
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Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 12:35:58 AM
I think the problem lies in our school system. As we've seen that kids are getting dumber and the school system is failing at producing competant people. Then mix in the religious mis-information and you have a high likelyhood of kids who have a very poor grasp of evolution.

I disagree with the person above me, because i think our system fails at teaching science and critical thinking effectively.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 8
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Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 1:57:41 AM
don't know how many times it has to be said, but evolution [changing species] has not been proven.

doesn't matter how many volumes have been written.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 9
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Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 2:41:12 AM
Actually, it has. Within a single human lifetime; a number of new species have been shown to arise out of previously known species [cf. Caridina murrayata], while the evidence for the origins of vast numbers of other species from either currently existing species [cf. Xantusia gracilis] or their similar ancestors [Cichlidae, Lakes Victoria, Tanganyika, Malawi], is even more vast. The above argument is the ever-popular and oft-repeated "if I try not to see it, it doesn't exist".

Be that as it may, it's essentially irrelevant. Evolution happens. Natural selection happens. These are terms defined by simple observations of fact. That natural selection 'determines' the path of evolution is a logical, observable, and well-tested conclusion. It logically follows that the observations we can make day to day about naturally selection and evolutionary change and inheritance, apply equally over scales of millions of years. No evidence contradicts this, the day to day evidence is in accord, and of special import, the magnitudes of change are coincident with the time scales involved.

The educational faults lay within the lack of a common and enforced standard, and an ignorant public. I, for one, won't be buying any snake oil.



doesn't matter how many volumes have been written.

LALALALALALALA - I CAN'T HEAR YOU!

Need anyone say more? Or will "if I try not to see it, it doesn't exist" do?
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 10
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Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 4:47:01 AM

Why do you suppose that the volumes of facts and data in support of evolution have been repressed in public schools. I know that religious leaders are opposed, but they aren't enough to persuade the boards to not teach the theory.
I don't know that such data is specifically repressed. It seems to me that schools are mostly concerned about teaching you that certain things are true, but not the why or the how of it.

I was lucky in that I had some teachers who did teach us the how of things, and their true basis, who taught us to prove things from first principles. But then, I didn't go to a state school, and I gather from Robert M. Pirsig's book that had I gone to an American state school, that these sort of methods would have been oppressed and crushed by the majority of state school teachers.

I gather that most state schools don't want to teach their pupils to think. At my faith school, we were encouraged to think, especially about the faith that was taught there. We were encouraged to question things. But then again, faith schools are not the same as state schools. It would hardly be effective to control people unfairly, if you had them all thinking for themselves from a young age.

That's WHY I question evolution. Not that it isn't possible. Just that I was raised to think.

I know, I know. That makes me a radical. Terrible thing, this ability to think. The majority seems to hate it.

The educational faults lay within the lack of a common and enforced standard, and an ignorant public. I, for one, won't be buying any snake oil.
I've heard this thing about snake oil quite often. But it's something that is foreign to me. But then, there are very few snakes in the UK. It seems that the whole idea of buying snake oil, or falling for stupid mistakes, seems to be mostly centred around American idioms. Maybe it's because us Brits are sceptical enough to not fall for something as easily as most Americans.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 11
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Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 5:45:03 AM

I didn't here one thing of evo. until college.

I sincerely hope you're just kidding! Is it really that bad in the US?
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 12
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Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 5:58:31 AM
RE Msg: 11 by JustDukky:

I didn't here one thing of evo. until college.
I sincerely hope you're just kidding! Is it really that bad in the US?
Can't be. I managed to avoid studying evolution in school, and in university. But I knew about evolution before I was 10. You simply cannot move here for the number of documentaries and other forms of information that mention evolution.

Well, maybe if their TV and other forms of media only show programmes like "Friends", and "50 ways to tell if your man has ED".
 thrums
Joined: 7/28/2007
Msg: 13
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Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 6:10:03 AM

I know that religious leaders are opposed, but they aren't enough to persuade the boards to not teach the theory.


Here in the Atlanta,GA area one mother forced her school board to put stickers in the science textbooks which read "evolution is just a theory and should be treated as such". I don't remember the exact wording but it was along those lines. Nothing was said about all the other theories in the textbook.

Another mother had all the Harry Potter books removed from the school library because they dealt with witchcraft.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 14
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Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 6:17:15 AM

I managed to avoid studying evolution in school,

Looking back, I guess we didn't actually study it till high school, but I distinctly remember arguing with some of the religious kids about it at recess in grade school (even then there were two camps!). Whether or not it was officially taught at that level, I can't say, but we all knew (and argued) about it.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 15
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Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 6:20:03 AM
@ Thrums
Judging by your post, I'd say you guys in the US had better turn things around before you descend into another dark age.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 16
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Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 6:36:49 AM
I don't ever remember learning much about the science of evolution, just the thirty second glimpse at an old guy with a long beard (Darwin) and the standard already mentioned monkey poster. And in elementary school, what more do you really need? Maybe a trip to a museum, a trip to the ole algae pond to microscope some of the newest blooms. The real learning has become the debate itself. The meaning of science versus the meaning of religion. The provability of evolution versus the provability of religion could lead to some great discussion if people would be so bloody persnicety about it.
 thrums
Joined: 7/28/2007
Msg: 17
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Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 6:38:28 AM

Judging by your post, I'd say you guys in the US had better turn things around before you descend into another dark age.


We could be there already! Recently there was a big battle to have the teaching of evolution completely removed from the eduction system in the state of Kansas, the same state that previously put Darwin on trial for heresy.
Other groups have tried to have Creationism taught alongside Evolution as a scientific theory.

The problem is the school boards would rather concede than fight a costly court case.
 coveredinpaint
Joined: 7/13/2009
Msg: 18
Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 7:30:31 AM
They taught it in our school, but it wasn't as obvious as it should've been. Like there was no book or even chapter called "evolution". But in biology class they taught about homo habilis and the transition of early man through his anthropoidal stages. In a way, I liked the fact that they didn't make a big deal about it. It was just part of the ciriculum and presented as fact the same way everything else was--sort of intermixed with the rest of the science. So even if the religos tried to ban "evolution" in the classroom, it'd be very hard to determine what to actually get rid of.
 Settleforthis
Joined: 12/7/2007
Msg: 19
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Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 8:01:35 AM
I really don't remember when I first encountered evolution. I had a section on basic genetics in 7th-8th grade, which included drosophila melanogaster breeding. I remember thinking about selectively breeding a 'giant' fruit fly, so I am certain that I had been introduced to evolution before then.
 :
Joined: 4/15/2005
Msg: 20
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Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 8:03:58 AM
The funny thing is that neither has to be wrong, they are two different kinds of truth, there is no reason why people should assume they contradict each other. Evolution is the explanation of the vast eons past based on the scraps left for us by mother nature, Creationism is the explanation of spiritual truths left by scraps of paper left for us by churches. Faith and science each produce different kinds of truth with different kinds of uses, plenty of scientists are religious and being religious certainly does not preclude a scientific world view. Unless your a fanatic of either belief paradigm.
 BumFluff122
Joined: 4/4/2009
Msg: 21
Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 8:35:43 AM
speciation has been witnessed countless times. Take the speciation of the fly in the subway: http://www.gene.ch/gentech/1998/Jul-Sep/msg00188.html

or the speciation of the lizards on the island: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080417112433.htm

There have actually been, I believe, over 40 different kinds of speciation witnessed since the death of Darwin.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 22
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Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 8:55:25 AM
feel free to tell me how I think, I guess.
don't know how you think.
don't think I was selling you snake oil.
so far I haven't been led to one shread of proof of evo.
if the stuff I have been shown is indicitive of the rest, its not gonna do it for me.
sounds like a hell of a long road of info.

correct me if wrong

I would have to become an expert in evo to figure it out.
I think others have believed in evo with much less evidence than I.
why, I wonder.
 coveredinpaint
Joined: 7/13/2009
Msg: 23
Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 9:01:49 AM

so far I haven't been led to one shread of proof of evo.


What about them skulls they found in the ground in Africa? I think that consitutes as at least a "shread", if not absolute hard evidence.
 INTOART
Joined: 3/12/2008
Msg: 24
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Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 9:13:57 AM
The fact of evolution is the basis of all biology, and by extension of all applications of biology (notably including medicine.) Trying to learn biology or any anything related to biology without it is like trying to learn physics without math.

Anyone who seriusly believes the absolute falsehood that evolution has not been conclusively proven is either tragically brainwashed or a complete f***ing idiot.
 Alli_oop
Joined: 6/30/2009
Msg: 25
Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 9:19:41 AM
Like others, I don't think it's repressed either. Thinking back to my school days, early and later, I never learned any different.
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