| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 4:58:06 AM | | I'll do my best to keep this short, if not sweet.Having recently made a claim from the dreaded CSA ( my son is almost 5, I work full time, as does his father who has never paid) I am currently receiving phone calls from my ex which are trying to persuade me to drop the claim, and work out some personal arrangment regarding my his contribution.I have tried this repeatedly in the past, to no avail. My concern is that I already have to push bth my ex and his son into a relationship- ie persuade my son to visit as he doesn't want to leave me, ring my ex to remind him to speak to our son as he hasn't in over a month- generally smooth the whole process over and try to make it easier- I'm just worried that being forced to make a financial contribution will sour my exes attitude to our son, or cause damage to their relationship.This is not what I want, as I have fought for years for them to build a solid bond, and that is why I have never pursued maintainence doggedly. Can anyone suggest a way I can make this process easier, or a solution that can benefit my son and his father.Or a way to ensure my ex does contribute without causing resentment?I've suggested Asda vouchers, clothes vouchers etc, and have even made it clear that I'm happy to provide receipts, but that doesn't seem to have helped. My ex is financially ok, but I think that because I bend over backwards to be civil, I think that hes genuinely upset that it's getting to the stage where payment isn't an option.Any advice or help or suggestions would be gratefully received. Thanks. | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 5:16:40 AM | Don't worry geordiebabe... anyone with a reading age over 12 can cope with a slightly long paragraph.
Given your ex's failure to pay AND to have regular contact with your son, I would say pursue the CSA (is that right?) thing. It may help him grow a pair and become properly responsible for the life he helped create. Will he b!tch and moan? I'm sure he will but give him time to get comfortable with the money thing. Stay calm and remind him when he gets snarky with you that this is for the kiddo. Nothing personal. Tell him that as many times as you need to...in a calm voice.
Hope it works out hun- from a single mum who never got a brass razoo..... | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 5:25:08 AM | I do not approve of the insinuations by obviously inferior people that I can't read.
So I've decided to be passive-agressive.
Wacka wacka wacka!
On topic:
OP, why do you care if the father is involved in your children's life? Seriously? If he does not want to be there, who cares?
If/when you are in a serious relationship again in the future, would you rather your kids have one daddy or two. Which is more functional? | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 5:53:54 AM | Not enough info. Depends on how the kiddo came to be.
You don't have divorced on your profile so I have to guess it was an oops.
As much as I want say he should be more involved this kind of situation is something women just don't seem to get. It's not like he is really going to get to raise this child sure you are going to give him visitation or weekends if he earns them but overall women just don't get it.
You are never facing this wall of being on the outside. Typical responces from women are that if I only got weekends I would be there for all of them and be glad I got em. What a load of crap that is.
Second and I know this one is that these government collection agencies are pretty black and white in their approach and most men do not end with just an ex they end up with two exes, you and a 600 pound gorilla that can ruin their lives.
If he is just not up to or interested in being a father than let him go, make the best of it and just raise the child as best you can. You might get lucky in that he just might come around but you will not force him to be something he does not want to be.
If this child was planned, you guys would still be together raising this child but like what is getting to be a growing trend is we don;t pick our bed buddies with how good they will be as parents anymore. | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 6:38:38 AM | Put your foot down.
Tell him that you are going to go through CSA because he hasn't kept his word or his responsibilities for 5 years and you don't trust him. Then stop "making it easy" for him to see his son. If he wants to be there he will be. Leave the consequences to him, and don't baby him anymore. Either he'll grow up, or he'll get lost. Either way, it's less for you and the child to deal with.
A true father shouldn't have to be reminded to show up.... I've seen hundreds of children with reluctant (in and out) fathers/mothers and I truly believe that people like that should be given one chance and then turfed right out of their lives. It is too much stress for a child.
As for the studies that say child fare better with both parents, I don't think it's true unless both parents are consistent. Who needs someone constantly popping up in their lives reminding them of what's missing the rest of the time?
If this child was planned, you guys would still be together raising this child but like what is getting to be a growing trend is we don;t pick our bed buddies with how good they will be as parents anymore.
You can't say that with any certainty. I know a married couple that planned to have another baby and went through fertility treatments to do so. She came home at 4 months pregnant and found him in bed with their teenage babysitter.
Stupid, dysfunctional people don't suddenly become good people/ parents simply because they had their relationship legitimized. | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 7:02:04 AM | | Let the state handle the child support issue, do not trust a person that has not willingly paid for 5 years to suddenly have a change of heart. Do not get involved with his relationship with your son. He know where you live, how to dial a phone and how to contact the child. Micromanaging will only piss off some people. | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 7:29:24 AM | | Hey OP I don't think there is much more you can or should do for the ex. Let CSA handle everything and if he gets prissy about it the answer is obvious.....the two of you tried to work out a solution and couldn't, that's why CSA is there. You can't force him to have a relationship with your (his) son so my suggestion is, don't. If the ex wants to see/phone his son then let him, if your son wants to see/phone his dad then let him. Never get in the way and prevent them from developing a relationship but you can't make it happen if the ex doesn't want it. Ya know, the old, lead a horse to water but can't make it drink saying. Good luck to ya. | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 7:40:38 AM | it sounds like he will try any trick in the book to keep his money in his pocket!! let the CSA deal with it, then you will get what you and your son are entitled to!
do not discuss this with him any further, it will only wind you up, just tell him calmly that because no arrangement has been made and stuck to, you are going to do it thru CSA and you dont wish to discuss it further with him. tell him you only want contact with him regarding his visitation with the child.
He may give you some space for some time, he will be reeling because he is losing money (although its not losing it, but in his eyes it will be) and not visit. as the previous poster mentioned, you cant force him into a relationship with his son, but i am sure that once he gets over himself and the money issue, he will establish a relationship.
one of the key things to remember, is to be honest with your son, but not to the point of bad mouthing the other parent. dont get in the way of their relationship, let it develop in its own time as i am sure it will.
and good luck!!! | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 8:24:51 AM | Holy enabling OP......I totally get why you have worked so hard to encourage a relationship between father and son but honestly....that is HIS FATHER'S RESPONSIBILITY, not yours. Trying to make someone do something they don't want to do is just not healthy for anyone....not your son, his father or you. If you didn't push it, would it happen? Wouldn't you rather he WANT to see his son because he loves him, misses him and wants to be a dad?
As for the issue of financial support for your son, why not tell his father you will sit down and work out an arrangement with him but you insist that arrangement be notarized and filed with the courts. Be fair with him and listen to his financial concerns, remember...he has to be able to provide a decent standard of living for his son while he is with him too. Put a time limit on the negotiations that you mutually agree upon. Many men are not really opposed to paying support for a child not in their custody full-time....what they resent (and rightly so) is being bankrupted by the payment of said support...hence the need to be fair to him because in so many places, the amounts awarded are punitive to NCPs.
If I were a man, I have to admit that I would be freaked out if I had a child with someone I wasn't in a relationship with because of the whole child support issue. How do you think you would feel if you were in his place? | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 8:25:16 AM | | Thanks everyone, for your input. In terms of the contribution excpected, apparently the CSA are asking for what my exx feels is a preposterous amount. Does anyone have any standardized amount/contribution that they work by? I think that the CSA have applied for 15%, but as the payments are in arrears I think that it's getting larger as a percentage, perhaps as much as 40% until the arrears are paid off .I don't wish to cause him financial hardship, but he does not make any contributon at all thus far. | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 8:31:09 AM | Why not calculate a set off amount....what you would have to pay him if he had primary custody deducted from what he has to pay you because you have primary custody. Allow him time to deal with the arrears. You say that he has not contributed towards his son but that is not entirely true....he has him with him sometimes and he feeds him and provides him with a place to sleep doesn't he? He just hasn't put any money in your hands. Do you need the arrears? You can choose to waive the arrears providing he stays current with his payments going forward.....just a thought.
I know I eventually had to seek a legal remedy with my daughter's father because he was being an azz about it and with some people you have to do that. He pays 3% of his gross annual income in child support. | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 9:32:12 AM | | Thanks again everyone for the advice. In terms of the arrears- the arrears which have been added are since June, not sincce my sons birth.I have waived those. With respect to how I would feel should the situation be reversed, I would definitely pay, although I might prefer to do so via vouchers- or in goods.I have offered my ex that option. I dont wish to force him to see his son- but he does state that he wishes to.It simply falls to me to arrange and/ or facillitate it. | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 11:51:45 AM |
sorry. i forget that paragraphs are my friend! 
I had no problem reading your "wall of text". I agree with previous posters who recommended you go through CSA to deal with this issue. It sounds like he's trying to worm his way out of any financial obligation at all, and unless you go through the proper channels to force some accountability on him, he will continue on with the pattern he's already established. I also don't believe there is a way to keep him from being resentful, as it's in some people's nature to be bitter and resentful, especially when it comes to money.
I would probably also stop pushing so hard for them to develop/maintain a relationship. I think it is admirable that you have done so up to this point, but sometimes you have to know when to say when.
What I don't understand is why people who pay child support are so bitter about having to do so and why giving cash to the custodial parent causes such resentment. Do NCPs really believe the CP is using that cash to buy drugs? I mean, realistically speaking, children in the home raise the amount you pay for groceries, electric, gas, and rent, so unless the NCP was also paying a portion of each of those bills, it really wouldn't seem fair. Simply buying the child clothes and toys wouldn't come close to being financially responsible for the child/children he/she helped create. | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 12:15:56 PM |
What I don't understand is why people who pay child support are so bitter about having to do so and why giving cash to the custodial parent causes such resentment.
Can't speak for all men but if you look at what "could" happen at least where I live, it is wholly understandable why some NCPs are bitter about the amount they have to pay.
For instance,
CP making 60K a year
NCP making 30K a year
NCP pays.....does that seem fair to you? If the two were in a relationship, combined they would have 90K a year, live well and be able to provide for their child(ren). Unfortunately, for whatever reason, they are not together but each must maintain a home in which they can care with their children while they are in their respective custody. Considering most men are relegated by the courts to every other weekend AND paying child support AND expected to provide suitable accomodations for his children while they are with him....I'm sure you can see how someone making only 30K a year for instance might be upset.
Here is another sample
CP could be making 60K a year but chooses to work part-time for 30K
NCP was making 80K a year but got laid off due to economy....he still has to pay his c.s. at 80K level unless the CP agrees to have it lowered (not many would I suspect) or goes back to court where he is accused of under-employing (isn't that what she is doing?). Now he is out of work, probably collecting unemployment at 60% of his previous 80K and god help him if he can't find a job when the unemployment runs out.
I'm sure if you use your imagination, you will see why some NCPs might object to the amount of cs they are expected to pay. | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 12:41:58 PM |
I'm sure if you use your imagination, you will see why some NCPs might object to the amount of cs they are expected to pay.
In some cases, yes, it is understandable.
I guess who I'm referring to specifically are NCPs I know IRL, who are ordered to pay $200 a month and begrudge the CP every penny of it. For example, my youngest child's father was ordered to pay $171/month to another child of his and didn't feel he should have to pay because she gets SSI in the amount of $500 a month. He will make a hundred dollar payment whenever the court issues a bench warrant (every three months) just to avoid going to jail. When I asked him why, his words were, "That bi/tch doesn't deserve my money." (in reference to his ex)
When we split, he said that he would "convince the court" that he should be able to buy "diapers and wipes" for our daughter and call that good, because he didn't want to give me cash. Who knows what I would do with the whopping $85/month he will be required to pay. Of course, he has also told me on several occasions that because I left him, I "wanted to do it all on my own" so "welcome to what you wanted". (I left because he's abusive)
Even the OP stated that she would rather give him vouchers for food and clothing than give him cash if the situation were reversed. It seems like some people truly are fearful that their hard earned cash might be spent on something other than the child's more obvious needs.
The state I live in (Michigan) recently changed their child support formula. The premise behind their revamped formula is to ensure that kids aren't eating ramen and living in a shack with the CP and spending weekends in a $250K home eating filet mignon with the NCP -- or vice versa. The new formula also takes into account the time spent with each parent, also other children either party has. It makes more sense this way, IMO. (unless the CP is intentionally working below his/her qualifications to milk the NCP for whatever he/she is worth, like in your second example) | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 1:03:21 PM |
I guess who I'm referring to specifically are NCPs I know IRL, who are ordered to pay $200 a month and begrudge the CP every penny of it.
The easiest way to explain this is there are self-centred folks and folks that aren't.
It is always better if one can negotiate like two mature adults with their kids best interests at heart but unfortunately that is not always the case.
Sorry to hear about your experience with your ex....he sounds like such a charmer at first to snow you. Hope you learned to listen more carefully when someone has nothing good to say about their ex. There are always two stories with the truth lying somewhere between the two. | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 1:06:49 PM |
As much as I want say he should be more involved this kind of situation is something women just don't seem to get. It's not like he is really going to get to raise this child sure you are going to give him visitation or weekends if he earns them but overall women just don't get it.
You are never facing this wall of being on the outside. Typical responces from women are that if I only got weekends I would be there for all of them and be glad I got em. What a load of crap that is.
Second and I know this one is that these government collection agencies are pretty black and white in their approach and most men do not end with just an ex they end up with two exes, you and a 600 pound gorilla that can ruin their lives.
This is an issue that is not discussed or very well understood by many people, especially women who have children out of wedlock and don't understand why the father is not more involved with the child. | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 1:12:35 PM |
especially women who have children out of wedlock
I would agree with what you said except for this part. Many divorced dads get screwed over by the mothers using the court bias in their favour.
This is an issue not very well discussed or understood by many MOTHERS. I am seeing a change though, even in these forums over the past five years with more and more women realizing that fathers matter very much and they deserve to have at least equal time with the child they helped to create if they want to have that amount of time. Many women buy into the "Mothers make better parents" crap that might have been true at the time when women were stay at home Moms while Dads worked long hours....that is not where we are today though. Most women are out there working just like the men (exception of course welfare rats).
This is a topic of which I am very passionate...can you tell? | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 1:16:28 PM | for the US posters out there, it is a very different system we have here regarding child support- we used to have the old maintenance system that was agreed through lawyers and finalised by the courts, now we have the csa! there is no 'going easy' on the guy/girl for arrears, they can take it right out of your pay!
if they are asking 15% that seems fair, but they do make the arrears affordable, and i dont think they would take 40% from him.
i would though if he is messing around about visiting, get something documented with a solicitor. set days and times, and then if it does turn messy or he doesnt turn up then you have something to fall back on if things get taken further! | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 1:41:32 PM | Actually itsallinthesoul gets it. Never thought this would ever happen eh?
The problem lies in the apathy of men that and politics.
In America, women outnumber men - less votes so unless some women feel that this is an issue they wish to change, it won't.
Although I have come accross some female posters who have had this affect them.
They meet a man who does pay and it affects the financial security of the new relationship.
This is hard to accept mostly in the situations where they just up and left the bio father because he wasn't or didn't change once the pregnancy occured.
Not allowing the father to be involved yet using the law to make him pay doesn't really come accross as fair especially if the female involved was a partier herself up until the time she became pregnant.
But we all know that sainthood is annointed on all mothers and the ex becomes an automatic evil person who isn't allowed to be near the child.
What itsallinthesoul has touched on is usually associated with a divorce. With the majority of divorces occuring shortly after the birth of children ( was in my case) this falls into idea that in more women are the instigators of having children. The men may agree but once the child is born a man does not have to do much for her to feel that she could do better off alone and poof he's divorced.
Recently I have been corresponding to the Minister of social services of Ontario about this very issue. Her reply is the courts have somewhat caught up and have tried to make the going back to court situation easier.
In reality the process is still mired that unless the cp wishes to co-operate it can still takes months, if an NCP falls too far into arrears his licence can be be suspended.
Recently ( and this made the national wire service ) Nova scotia enacted the same laws and granted their family collection agency to be able to suspend licences. What galled me is that there were only 15 cases where this was even deemed neccesary - 15!!!
Talk about overkill.
So for all those single moms who find that getting a man to do more than just date you keep these sort of things in mind. the laws do not make getting involved with you all that attractive.
And as more and more men find out that this is happening you may find single childless women may find the same challenges in finding mates.
How's that for balance? | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/24/2009 2:00:58 PM |
So for all those single moms who find that getting a man to do more than just date you keep these sort of things in mind. the laws do not make getting involved with you all that attractive.
And as more and more men find out that this is happening you may find single childless women may find the same challenges in finding mates.
How's that for balance?
Truthfully, it sucks for everyone....especially children who need both their parents or at minimum one bio and one step role model parent........
You know what though Spider....if women can see men as their equals when it comes to parenting....it won't matter much what the courts do, they will simply be approving agreed upon custody/access/support agreements....what a beautiful world that would be eh? | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/25/2009 2:48:05 AM | Thanks everyone, for your insights. I'm aware that visitation/maintainence are used as a tool by some, and that isn't a road I wish to travel.Whatever my ex has done, and the issues I personally have with him, are in the past, and I really just want to establish a workable solution whereby my son has his needs met, financially and emotionally. I have been in dicussions with my ex since he has received the communication from the CSA, and it seems that it's given him a real wake -up call, in terms yof realizing that financially he does need to make some contribution. To be honest I have no wish to take a high percentage of his wage that the arrears would require, as that would be vindictive. My son hasn't gone without the basics in the past, and as a previous poster said, what's done is done. So I'm going to (hopefully) just establish an agreement where he has to pay set amount,weekly, henceforth, and should he fail to do so, then it would be policed by the CSA. One of the knock on effects of our discussions has been my ex explaining to me the huge problem the distance is, in terms of seeing his son, so we're in the process of arranging a way I can help with that. It may be the case that I'm setting myself up for a fall, and being let down again, but I am concerned about a deduction of earnings being applied to his wages as I don't thin k that I'd react well . Fingers crossed, anyway!
Thanks again. | |
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| A question of balance...
Posted: 7/25/2009 4:43:38 AM | Geordie, I am so glad to hear that you are willing to come to a fair agreement with him and to realize that perhaps there are other things at play here like the distance thing for your ex.
Whatever my ex has done, and the issues I personally have with him, are in the past, and I really just want to establish a workable solution whereby my son has his needs met, financially and emotionally.
I so much prefer to hear comments like that then those of women hell bent on destroying the father of their child because of what happened between them.
My oldest child has had barely any relationship with his Dad and while he is a well-adjusted 15 year old, I know he would have benefitted so much from having his father involved in his life. Unfortunately, one cannot control the actions of another...sigh.
My youngest child is 4 and her father and I have shared 50/50 custody of her since she was 10 months old. While I have some issues personally with him and him with me, he is HER father and whatever is wrong between us should never impact on her relationship with either of us. I do believe that overall (forest not the trees), she is benefitting from having a relationship with both of us. We expose her to different things, we have somewhat different parenting styles (although we seem to be aligning ourselves more and more as of late) and are really different people.
Where I am weak, he is strong. Where he is weak, I am strong. In that way, she really does get the best we both to offer her as parents. Our daughter will never have to ask me "Mommy, do I have a daddy?" like my son did (that was so sad). Our daughter will never have to wonder if her daddy loves her or why he doesn't...because he does and he tells her regularly that he loves her.
With my son, but for the grace of God, a good friend of mine assumed that father role from age 2.5 with my son and has been there for him the way his father should have been. Even still, it is not the same thing and I know my son feels his father does not love him and for any child, that has to be one of the worst things to feel.... | |
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