| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/24/2009 9:28:32 PM | Seems there is a lot of hubub in the media as well as among Republican party members over Obama's attempts to socialise the healthcare system in the USA to make it so that everyone can recieve treatment equally. Being a Canadian, I don't see why so many Americans take offense to these new ideas, just because your country has been run by a bunch of ignorant people for the last 50 years who didn't want to change the healthcare system doesn't mean it's going to kill you. Why should it be a constitutional right for any American to own a gun while only those with a lot of money can have full healthcare benefits from the best doctors in the country while others who don't have as much money can't get the same treatment, especially for important medical procedures. If anything, it should be a human right to have proper medical care regardless of whether you make 30,000 a year or 500,000 or whatever to save your life and a privelage to own a gun which in hindsight can kill people.
I have never understood that mentality as to why the US still hasn't gone to a socialised healthcare system, with hundreds of billions that could be dumped into it every year, every person would get the same quality of treatment without being stuck on a waiting list like us Canadians have to deal with since we don't have the facilities due to a much lower influx of tax funding every year. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/24/2009 9:49:16 PM | Medication errors in hospitals kill roughly 3x more people than people using guns do per year.
Gun ownership is a right--but noone pays for you to buy one. Paying for a firearm is responsibility of the buyer, noone else.
Lots of Europe has started moving back towards private practice as socialized health-care didn't work out so hot.
I fail to see your point in any way.
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The post below is full of win! | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/24/2009 10:08:16 PM | Bearing arms and health care are both rights. You have to pay for and earn both to enjoy them though.
I have never understood that mentality as to why the US still hasn't gone to a socialised healthcare system, with hundreds of billions that could be dumped into it every year, every person would get the same quality of treatment without being stuck on a waiting list like us Canadians
If we were to dump hundreds of billions into health care, how would we fund anything else? Further, wouldn't this leveling out of the pay structure create a disincentive amongst medical professionals? How may doctors in the US became one because it's so lucrative?
^^^The post above rocks! Fist Bump | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/24/2009 10:43:46 PM | How in the name of common sense can you pass a Health Care reform bill,
that does not provide any protocol for how millions of doctors and health care professionals are going to get paid!
"Government is not the solution to our problems—government is the problem"
"A government which think's that it's own citizens are not capable of deciding how best to live their own lives is a problem" - Ronald Reagan
The last President I voted for, wonder If I'll ever vote again. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/24/2009 10:48:41 PM |  Aww, come on. Doctors do it for the human compassion anyway! They loooove telling overweight people 10 times that they should eat healthier and exercise once in a while. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 1:02:51 AM |
Seems there is a lot of hubub in the media as well as among Republican party members over Obama's attempts to socialise the healthcare system in the USA to make it so that everyone can recieve treatment equally.
Yup, lots of hubbub goin’ on here, OP. Ooo, just remembered something...seems it’s not just Republicans or (omg) the media doing the hubbubbing...why do you suppose it has stalled? Yup, good job OP...cuz democrats are doing a little hubbubbing themselves.
Now, stay with me, OP...
Being a Canadian, I don't see why so many Americans take offense to these new ideas, just because your country has been run by a bunch of ignorant people for the last 50 years who didn't want to change the healthcare system doesn't mean it's going to kill you.
Oh goodness, young feller...your Daddy should have took behind the woodshed years ago and strapped some respect into your azz.
Your opinion is, that America should bow down to your pathetic little opinion and do what your ignorant leaders have done for the last 150 years? (see how that kind of discourse isn’t very effective?) Change our system to match yours? Wow, that’s pretty arrogant, isn’t it, OP? Do you see, read or hear anywhere that the USA thinks you’re too ignorant to decide your own laws and rights and need to update them to be consistent with America’s?
I have to ask, OP...what is your purpose...or, point to this thread?
Why should it be a constitutional right for any American to own a gun while only those with a lot of money can have full healthcare benefits from the best doctors in the country while others who don't have as much money can't get the same treatment, especially for important medical procedures.
WTH does owning a gun have to do with healthcare? Our government doesn’t insist on or provide guns to us. As far as I know, there isn’t one person in this Country paying taxes on income they earned that go to buying and providing guns to private citizens who can’t afford to buy them.
Ask our 15 to 20 million illegal immigrants how many of them have not received the same life saving care that the wealthiest of us who actually pay for those services are entitled to.
Yup, America actually cares about life and liberty...so much so, that we can’t and won’t turn away someone in need of healthcare...in spite of the fact that they have never paid one red penny into any kind of system.
If anything, it should be a human right to have proper medical care
Says who? Where is this proclaimed and documented, that every human being on the Planet is ‘entitled’ to ‘proper medical care’? Do you protest more loudly against countries that have NO health care for their citizens? You know, like some of those countries in Africa, the Middle East, etc.?
If your goal is truly benevolent, why aren’t you starting threads, traveling and proclaiming your cause for the countries and people who need it most?
I have never understood that mentality as to why the US still hasn't gone to a socialised healthcare system
The answer to that is pretty simple, OP...because you didn’t grow up here...you’re on the outside looking in rather than ‘living the dream’. Risk and reward. Personal responsibility and rugged individualism.
Add to that, Canada’s affiliation with the Commonwealth and direct ties socially and politically with Europe, it only makes sense you “have never understood” America’s mentality. And that , OP kind of blows my mind...considering the similarities in our beginnings on this Continent.
with hundreds of billions that could be dumped into it every year, every person would get the same quality of treatment without being stuck on a waiting list like us Canadians have to deal with since we don't have the facilities due to a much lower influx of tax funding every year.
That’s a load of crap. Your per capita GDP isn’t much different than ours.
Look OP...here are some graphs that compare Canada, Mexico and the USA...(OUR Continent). To me, they point out some pretty obvious things that ‘we’ all could work to change and improve. There are no ‘Rights’ saying we are entitled to...only ‘Responsibilities’ which say we should.
http://www.mint.com/blog/finance-core/canada-and-mexico-vs-the-us-a-visual-comparison/
~ds~ | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 1:42:22 AM |
Obama's attempts to socialise the healthcare system in the USA to make it so that everyone can recieve treatment equally.
I don't know why but I just have this nagging feeling that he's telling everyone that he wants to give things to people according to their needs, and tax on a differential scale based on their ability. You know, from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs (and we the gov decide what you need). I think it's what Howdy Doody used to say.
And I also have this nagging feeling that in general politicians look at insurance companies and say "Wow! Those guys really make a profit! I wish we were insurance companies...wait a minute... Hey Bernie, I've got an idea for reform...and it'll help the budget! We can sell it by saying it's to help those cancer kids!"
Why should it be a constitutional right for any American to own a gun while only those with a lot of money can have full healthcare benefits from the best doctors in the country while others who don't have as much money can't get the same treatment, especially for important medical procedures.
Totally different concepts from my perspective.
The right to bear arms is a limit to governments power. Meaning (to me and my interpretation) that the government shouldn't be able to take away your gun, or make it illegal for you (law abiding, tax paying, non felon) to own one. Not that they hand them out freely. Not that they go around making sure that everyone has the same gun.
As it relates to health care I don't think the government should be able to take away your health, or make searching for what makes you healthy illegal, but I don't think the government should be responsible for providing it to you either.
If anything, it should be a human right to have proper medical care regardless of whether you make 30,000 a year or 500,000 or whatever to save your life and a privelage to own a gun which in hindsight can kill people.
There are huge assumptions here. Who determines what is proper? Is it stabilization? Quality of life? So the government is going to treat an alcoholic homeless crazy guy to a free teeth cleaning and liver transplant before the president of the united states? Because of first come first serve? To make sure everyone is getting equal treatment? Even though that's the last liver? Oh well, sorry Mr. President, no liver for you.
Or is the government going to HAVE to rank people and what kind of care they deserve, or is the most cost effective, rather than let the individual and the doctor decide? So the idea that everyone will get the same type of care in a completely equal way is...well...nonsense IMO. The government getting that power over me (to tell me what my life is worth and enforce it without recourse) scares me profoundly.
I have never understood that mentality as to why the US still hasn't gone to a socialised healthcare system
Because we aren't the rest of the world. We are a democracy and traditionally favored, or idealized, free market capitalism. It's ingrained to the way our kids are trained growing up.
For health care we have come to a monstrous hybrid. What's making it so terrible is the constant tug of war trying to make health care, and payment, perform and compete like a private business with a socialism mission statement and rules of behavior.
Hybrids don't stay functional for long (without constant inflows of ever increasing tons of money) as it simply highlights and exacerbates the problems inherent to both systems. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 3:28:52 AM |
Medication errors in hospitals kill roughly 3x more people than people using guns do per year. Firearm—In 2006, 30,896 persons died from firearm injuries in the United States (Tables 18–20), accounting for 17.3 percent of all injury deaths in 2006. Firearm suicide and homicide, the two major component causes, accounted for 54.6 and 41.4 percent, respectively, of all firearm injury deaths in 2006.
In 2006, a total of 38,396 persons died of drug-induced causes in the United States (Tables 21 and 22). The category “drug-induced causes” includes not only deaths from dependent and nondependent use of either legal or illegal drugs, but also poisoning from medically prescribed and other drugs.
One should check statistics before making outlandish claims. I'm not even going to cite my source becuse it should be obvious who provided these stats. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 3:45:41 AM | How in the name of common sense can you pass a Health Care reform bill,
that does not provide any protocol for how millions of doctors and health care professionals are going to get paid!
how are the getting paid now? what is going to change...
Id like to pay my Doctor with Chickens like the ol days
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This Hrealth Care is a priveladge, not a right is what I am hearing more and more...
OK, what Party's platform is that from...I know the Rebuplicans have their own version of Heath care reform, so where does this thinknig come from ...That you are entitile to what you can afford and tax payers should not fund Health care at all.
What party do you, who believe like this, belong to...So I can vote against your candidates. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 8:25:11 AM | "OK, what Party's platform is that from...I know the Rebuplicans have their own version of Heath care reform, so where does this thinknig come from ...That you are entitile to what you can afford and tax payers should not fund Health care at all."
you might actually read up on this. what you pay in hospital fees for expensive and unpaid emergency room treatments that could have often been avoided with some cheap preventive medicine (which Aetna could care less about) comes BACK TO YOU in hospital costs which raise your insurance rates which puts more people in emergency rooms, raising your insurance rates more.
are you really looking forward to spending 20% of your pay check on healthcare in a decade or so?
have you ever read the stats on French and Japanese healthcare? they get a much better bang for their buck than we do by far. AND they have a multi-tier system that allows you to add your own healthcare insurance to theirs.
the Republican plan is a joke. its four pages long and relies on what is already not working. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 9:02:05 AM | Msg 9
What party do you, who believe like this, belong to...So I can vote against your candidates. When the OP mentioned he was "Canadian" what part of that were you too stupid to understand. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 10:26:48 AM | Reagan...........
The last President I voted for, wonder If I'll ever vote again.
P G Looks like we have something in common.
I honestly don't know what is on the minds of everyone else... But I have the feeling, most believe we need some sort of healthcare reform.... It needs to be tweaked and fixed.... Not thrown over and replaced by a government controlling bureaucracy.
I kinda remember Obama running on Change and Hope, But I also remember the Republicans also stating that they were the ones to make the changes... Now, I guess it is what kind of change we are talking about. In the elections, people were crying out how they didn't trust the government, that there was an out of control Washington, Pork, the lack of transparency, the abuse of power... taking the freedoms away from the citizens.... And spending way too much.
The change has been way more spending.... to the point of Brazilians (I mean... what's after Trillions?) There is a completely non-transparency... Sure... Our President comes out and reads speeches, maybe even too much, but there is no transparency... How many czars does he have now? that have no power, but strong arm people and only report directly to him... cutting out the house and senate. How many bills is he going to try and force thru the house and senate, not allowing them to read them, and then when they get passed... and things come to light of the crap in them... He acts appalled of someone else not doing their job.
Look... I don't know the percentage... but since the beginning of Obama's rule... Our government has grown, way out of control... The US government, that can't run medicare, struggles with the IRS, DMV and Postal Service... now has their hands in the banking industry, the Auto industry, Insurance industry and soon to a city near you the Healthcare industry.
So lets watch the dollar go away to create more of a need of an Amero currency or even a One World Currency.. Or maybe straight to a chip implant so we can be tracked and everything we do will be on record for the government.
I guess if the government owns and runs everything... This will make it much easier to control us in every step of our lives.
But, first... they must confiscate all of the arms... No guns... will be easier to control the masses... we won't be able to rebel, instead... we will get into our soup lines... and health care lines... and maybe someday... the government will also determine what job we will be assigned... heck... they already want to tell us how much we should be allowed to get payed.
Now even though I am throwing out some of the conspiracy theory ideas... It isn't that far fetched that we are heading in that direction.
We are becoming sheep.... People on the left want to demonize those who work hard and make a good living and think that they should take what they make and give it to those who don't... This is making sheep out of us... this is killing the American dream... Sure, people should be charitable, and people who are struggling need some help... A helping hand.... not a hand out.
If we have issue with our healthcare... lets make it better... if a lot of people are uninsured... lets see why? I haven't had insurance for well over ten years. I'm self employed. I use to own a business with 30 employees, now I do freelance. Why? It is because of the model that Obama has chosen... the one that California has been doing for years to kill growth, over regulate and over tax. A lot of companies just up and left California... I down sized. I will also say, that the unions also had a hand in running some small businesses into the ground. They may help their employees a little..... but they are a killer to small business.
If you look at the economic woe's of the Country... It's very bleak... but if you look at California and New York it is a disaster.
The country running Healthcare.... will ruin this country even faster... than what is going on now.
And look, It isn't that I hate Obama.... He is very charming, a nice guy... seems smart.... But our Country isn't a far left liberal country... we will not be the US we were if we continue all that way left. We wouldn't work if we went far right either. This country is a moderate conservative country... with radicals on both sides.
Don't get me started on Cap & Trade and Global Warming..... Again... we need to do things cleaner and better... but the sky isn't falling like Gore and those that are getting rich off of scaring you what like you to believe.
We all have a right for a better life, work within your community to make it better.... Don't sit back and expect your community to make your life better. We only have control over one thing.... and that is ourselves... and we don't even have complete control over that. And the more control the government has... the less control the people have... and this country was founded on the belief that it is run by the people for the people....
A socialistic society... a handful of people determine what the overwhelming majority does. America is a democracy... where the majority is to determine what that handful of people do. We should control our government... not the other way around. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 12:01:12 PM | When the OP mentioned he was "Canadian" what part of that were you too stupid to understand.
If you reread msg 9 you will see a dotted line separator...meaning a new thought or idea was being expressed...im sorry I didn't state that for you. I can understand your confusion...my bad.
if I were still speaking to the OP the sentance would have read...
"What party do you belong to OP...So I can vote against your candidates."
And not..."What party do you, who believe like this, belong to...So I can vote against your candidates.
The "Who believe like this". is directed to all those folk that believe this idea.
Although, you may be right because, I cant see what the OP being Canadian has to do with anything...
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 12:27:11 PM | (It's only "universal" health care if ALL citizens are provided for. That's not the case here. Even the most (naively) optimistic numbers from the proponents show a 96% coverage once it's in place, so not every citizen is provided for. I don't believe those numbers, as the proposals revealed to date show exclusions in the tens of millions are likely.)
In any event, the right to bear arms is explicitly stated in the U.S. Constitution. Whereas the "right to health care" is not. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 12:39:40 PM | Firearm—In 2006, 30,896 persons died from firearm injuries in the United States (Tables 18–20), accounting for 17.3 percent of all injury deaths in 2006. Firearm suicide and homicide, the two major component causes, accounted for 54.6 and 41.4 percent, respectively, of all firearm injury deaths in 2006.
In 2006, a total of 38,396 persons died of drug-induced causes in the United States (Tables 21 and 22). The category “drug-induced causes” includes not only deaths from dependent and nondependent use of either legal or illegal drugs, but also poisoning from medically prescribed and other drugs.
One should check statistics before making outlandish claims. I'm not even going to cite my source becuse it should be obvious who provided these stats.-bipolarintense
I fully agree! One should check their stats, (and in my case, their lack-of-sleep induced mis-worded post!). I was incorrect when I typed "medication". "Medical" was the word I SHOULD have typed. Thankyou for pointing out my mistake, however, my point remails the same.:
The Institute of Medicine (IOM) reports on two studies estimating the hospital deaths due to medical errors at 44,000 to 98,000 annually, which would place medical errors in the top ten causes of death in the USA. http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309068371 | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 12:46:17 PM | There was a study done some years ago that revealed fully half of all deaths in hospitals were the result of the victims having gone to hospitals to seek treatment...they were given the wrong procedures or medications, or they contracted an illness while in the hospital they would have been unlikely to contract during the same time if they had NOT been in the hospital.
Hospitals, apparently, killed half of those who die in them. This wasn't some obscure $10 study by some unknown organization. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 12:46:21 PM | so far there hasn't been one single post with an intelligent suggestion about what to do about the healthcare mess. tons of "OH GOD IT WON'T WORK" but outside of a four page Republican proposal in the House there is nothing. four pages to fix US Healthcare. sounds just like the original Bush bank bailout. you have to be kidding me.
do you really think the present system is working? have any of you people against doing something looked at where this will be in ten years? twenty years? | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 1:01:49 PM |
so far there hasn't been one single post with an intelligent suggestion about what to do about the healthcare mess. tons of "OH GOD IT WON'T WORK" but outside of a four page Republican proposal in the House there is nothing. four pages to fix US Healthcare. sounds just like the original Bush bank bailout. you have to be kidding me.
Well, there actually have, but they've either been completely ignored and/or deleted because they didn't fly with the desired agenda. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 1:10:24 PM |
The Institute of Medicine (IOM) reports on two studies estimating the hospital deaths due to medical errors at 44,000 to 98,000 annually, which would place medical errors in the top ten causes of death in the USA. http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309068371 Estimates. Of course estimates are totally accurate. Especially studies from 1984 and 1992 both of which are mentioned but offer no details on what these supposedly "large samples" actually were.
Mine are only from the CDC who used actual statistics gathered from every medical institution in the United States.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr57/nvsr57_14.pdf
Of course yours is more accurate.  | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 1:22:56 PM |
I have never understood that mentality as to why the US still hasn't gone to a socialised healthcare system
I really wish people would stop calling it 'socialized', it's not. The free part only means you don't pay for the care at the time, you pay for it as part of your taxes. The UK has a separate entry for 'National Insurance Contribution' which means the Government is a big HMO/PPO.
with hundreds of billions that could be dumped into it every year, every person would get the same quality of treatment without being stuck on a waiting list like us Canadians have to deal with since we don't have the facilities due to a much lower influx of tax funding every year.
You have just highlighted the argument for the 'cons', funding is limited and procedures need to be managed accordingly - virtually all the counties that use a 'Nationalized Health care system' have a waiting list issue. The UK system worked well at the start but is now falling apart as the population increases and lives to a much longer age.
The same problem exists with the pension scheme, the amount somebody paid in 30-40 years age does not cover what they get now. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 2:11:21 PM | "Well, there actually have, but they've either been completely ignored and/or deleted because they didn't fly with the desired agenda."
I'm open to hearing them. so far the only thing I've seen is the GOP proposal which is a joke. four pages. amazing. | |
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