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| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 7/28/2009 9:42:07 AM | | I've read recently that all the Beatles LPs are being re-released re-mastered/digitally cleaned up on CD in September. Do you think that it is right to alter (even supposedly for the best) Beatles recordings? Do you think it's a bit like photoshopping the Mona Lisa? And also is it really necessary? The only song that I think had sub-standard production was Rain, and I'm not even sure if that has been re-mastered. | |
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| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 7/28/2009 10:52:58 AM | | Its dead wrong if they don't preserve the original seperated stereo mix, I'll bet they don't. If they keep the mix and just clean it up and compress it a little thats fine. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 3 | |
| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 7/28/2009 5:34:04 PM |
I've read recently that all the Beatles LPs are being re-released re-mastered/digitally cleaned up on CD in September. Do you think that it is right to alter (even supposedly for the best) Beatles recordings? Do you think it's a bit like photoshopping the Mona Lisa? And also is it really necessary? The only song that I think had sub-standard production was Rain, and I'm not even sure if that has been re-mastered.
It's a long time coming, take for example the digital re-mastering of the early Steely Dan catalogue at the behest of the original producer Gary Katz, who was disgusted with the RIAA curve original transfers.
Once a signal is transfered from analog to digital, much of the signal is lost and can't be recovered, the lower the resolution, the more loss. Early A/D conversion of audio was accomplished with inferior technology than what's available today, and a lot of it just plain sucks because the transfer from analog to CD Master was driven by $/time, not quality, and in many cases wasn't even taken from original analog masters or the even better, un-mixed tracking reels.
Mixing and mastering are different things, mastering whether analog or digital is an art all its own and done properly, takes a LOT of time, effort, and expense. I hope they have access to the original tracking reels because a lot of the original masters by EMI were terrible.
Ultimately, if they could render to 24bit/96khz finished product (Audio DVD), we could really hear what John, Paul, George, Ringo, ....and George, intended. | |
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| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 7/28/2009 8:51:43 PM | I personally think it's a great idea. I'm not a Beatles fan though, so dismiss my opinion if you like. :)
I only say this because in 2006 a movie was made using only songs of the Beatles, called Across the Universe. They tweaked some of the songs, and they were sung by the talented actors in the film, but most importantly, they cleaned it up. I love it! The songs are great, and I think that cleaning up the songs and getting them in better quality can help to attract a larger fanbase of young people. Not that they don't have a constantly growing following given to their fame, I just think it could help turn people on to them that haven't given them a chance before.
Just an opinion from another perspective. | |
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| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 7/28/2009 9:33:16 PM | If the original "intent" of the music remains the same, then I'm fine with that. The following quote from Rolling Stone suggests as much:
"A crew of engineers at London’s Abbey Road Studios have spent four years working on the remasters using new technology and vintage equipment, the press release says, in an effort to preserve “the authenticity and integrity of the original analogue recordings” and ensure “the highest fidelity the catalog has seen since its original release.” " | |
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| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 7/29/2009 12:10:46 AM | I think Capital had the best sounding vinyl records of any label during the 60's anyway. I grew up listening to The Beatles on 33 1/3 RPM records. I loved the rush and power of those records. It was like getting clobbered with a wonderful wave of music. I suppose much of what I was hearing were the scratches and all, but it just sounded....solid. Then, I remember hearing the intro into "Money" on CD the first time. Suddenly, instead of this huge, rumbling sound, each instrument sounded as if it had been pulled apart and pasted back together again. I didn't realize how much of that sound was a simple piano riff! I have to admit I was disappointed. Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is if they can restore the fullness of the original records, that'd be great. If all they do is try to get the sharpest, crystaline sound they can, I'm not convinced that's a good thing.
Other songs that don't sound as good on CD are "She's a Woman," "Birthday," "I Feel Fine," and one that was mentioned in the first post, "Rain." Ringo's drums sound weak and ineffective on CD. If you get the chance to hear these songs on vinyl, do it! You'll see what I mean. | |
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| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 7/29/2009 1:02:13 AM | | I want to remind anyone that's convinced that sharper and clearer is better, this is Rock-n-Roll! This isn't classical music; this is music that owes much of its excitement to its distorted sound. Take "Exile on Main Street" by The Rolling Stones. Part of what makes this such a great record is that it has a sludgy, basement sound. I hope they never clean up rauncy records like that! I remember when John Prine went to record "Pink Cadillac" at Sun Studios in Memphis (where Elvis, Roy Orbison, Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins and Johnny Cash cut a lot of their best records) so he could try to recreate that grungy sound. Now we should pay millions of dollars to clean it up? I don't think so! | |
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| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 7/29/2009 1:04:22 AM | ^^^^^^
If you get the chance to hear these songs on vinyl, do it! You'll see what I mean.
I agree completely..........and to further enhance the Beatles vinyl experience..
1) skip that afternoon of school
2) go to your friend's house and smoke a big doobie
3) then crank the Beatles on Vinyl
while your make grilled cheese sandwiches in the kitchen to cure your munchies........
well.......... that worked for me back in the day
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| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 7/29/2009 6:11:24 AM | I think what I should do is invest in a very good turntable and track down the original vinyl in mono. I have all the vinyl in stereo but several albums are practically worn out through over-play!
The most distinct difference between vinyl and CD I've ever noticed is on the Badfinger releases (Apple, hence my worry!). The original vinyl sounds far superior.
Rain is the one song I am most keen to hear in a remastered version because I thought the original 1966 vinyl has noticeably poor production. Both the Past Masters CD's sound pretty poor though especially compared to the 'Red' and 'Blue' releases.
Does anybody have the Dr Ebbetts remasters? I haven't heard them and would be grateful for some views. | |
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| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 7/29/2009 2:45:24 PM | | I can't wait actually. For anyone who doesn't like the remasters, stick with what you have. :) | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 11 | |
| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 7/29/2009 7:48:35 PM | I hope they fix the stereo glitch in the middle of the original mix of "I am the Walrus".
I want to remind anyone that's convinced that sharper and clearer is better, this is Rock-n-Roll! This isn't classical music;
This isn't a question of "sharper and clearer", it's about faithful recreation, or fidelity. I don't think you fully understand what the re-mastering processes is.
...John Prine went to record "Pink Cadillac" at Sun Studios in Memphis (where Elvis, Roy Orbison, Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins and Johnny Cash cut a lot of their best records) so he could try to recreate that grungy sound.
A "raunchy" mix is NEVER harmed by being more faithfully reproduced.
This said... At the time the Beatles were making records, they and George Martin fought a constant losing battle with the EMI mastering department who were far too conservative. They were not up to the task of being current with the technology they had to use from '63 onward. In short, they refused to master to the bandwidth and amplitude that –by then was industry standard for vinyl, and they did NOT faithfully reproduce the mixes given them.
difference between vinyl and CD
Is the analog signal path superior? Absolutely
Does this make vinyl a better storage/playback medium? No.
The only analog playback media (so far) that can handle the best (SPL, Bandwidth, Noise) analog recording is 2" 2-track tape. Vinyl lps have to be mastered with something called an RIAA curve, this is a destructive process, which means much of the volume level and tons of low- and mid-bandwidth are filtered out.
...this is so the needle doesn't bounce out of the groove.
So, vinyl sucks compared to 2" tape.
2" ( 1 and 1/2") tape and the machines to handle it were/are unaffordable to any consumer.
Analog mixes re-mastered from 2"(or 1", etc) masters to digital, if it's done well (that's the disclaimer), are as good or better than vinyl, *assuming both are using high quality playback gear and signal path.
Analog signal vs. digital (signal path vs storage media)
Analog signal has no practical upper ceiling, aside from one of storage media and current speaker transducer technology, When/if someone figures out a storage medium for 115v rail 150db 3hz to 300,000hz analog signal path, all bets are off. Digital audio can't handle capturing/recreating bandwidth that huge.
So.... Analog is superior in ALL ways except for consumer storage media.
Analog signal has no practical upper ceiling thought experiment -
150db 3hz to 300,000hz signal
(yes, I know, beyond hearing. Doesn't matter, we DO hear the sum of waveform interaction)
Imagine an "analog" electron microscope with a display screen the size of a football field, a field of view/resolution that shows a human face from a distance –and up close, the molecules in the cells of the face.[end metaphor] Binary Analog/Digital conversion at this resolution is impossible in audio, the rate of over-sampling required (due to what is known as Nyquist Limits) would probably be measured in f'cking micro-waves = impossible to deal with the byproducts of noise/heat.
Hence, you will *never see usable digital audio resolutions beyond 24bit192hz, too much RF noise.
(*DSD technology notwithstanding).
This is why the best "front end"pro audio recording gear is analog - mic pres. EQs, compressors, limiters, gates, etc. Much of it designs that haven't changed since the 60s/70s (40s/50s for mics).
CDs are 16bit48hz, and if they are digitally re-mastered "right", smoke vinyl ...assuming both are using high quality playback gear and signal path.
music that owes much of its excitement to its distorted sound.
Absolutely nothing to do with remastering, mastering, or even mixing. What you're alluding to is accomplished with; mics, guitar amps, instruments, room acoustics, and tracking . There are distinct stages to the process, basically they are: Tracking, Mixing , Mastering, Remastering. If you understand the basic differences you'll see why I'm calling bullsh!t.
As far as The Beatles (et al) recordings, most of the analog front end gear is the same still used in any decent tracking studio. Such as the RCA DX77 mics at Sun Studios, or the Neve 1073 pres at Abby Road, there's a pair of 1073s sitting less than 3' from me and a DX77 down the road....
Goo Goo Ga Joob | |
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| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 7/29/2009 9:05:27 PM |
Do you think it's a bit like photoshopping the Mona Lisa?
Only if they severly alter the mix...and I doubt they'll do that....
I don't know all the in's and out's of mastering...but if they can get it really close to the analogue signal...you better believe I'm gonna test drive one of them....
Put it to you this way...I slapped on an audiophile pressing of Crime of the Century and compared it to my run of the mill CD...difference is night & day....if they get those new discs sounding close to premium vinyl pressings...I'll be very happy | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 13 | |
| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 7/29/2009 11:50:39 PM | Part of a press release from Apple Corp/EMI
The albums have been re-mastered by a dedicated team of engineers at EMI's Abbey Road Studios in London over a four year period utilising state of the art recording technology alongside vintage studio equipment, carefully maintaining the authenticity and integrity of the original analogue recordings.
And...
The re-mastering process commenced with an extensive period conducting tests before finally copying the analogue master tapes into the digital medium. When this was completed, the transfer was achieved using a Pro Tools workstation operating at 24 bit 192 kHz resolution via a Prism A-D converter. Transferring was a lengthy procedure done a track at a time. Although EMI tape does not suffer the oxide loss associated with some later analogue tapes, there was nevertheless a slight build up of dust, which was removed from the tape machine heads between each title.
From the onset, considerable thought was given to what audio restorative processes were going to be allowed.It was agreed that electrical clicks, microphone vocal pops, excessive sibilance and bad edits should be improved where possible, so long as it didn't impact on the original integrity of the songs.
In addition, de-noising technology, which is often associated with re-mastering, was to be used, but subtly and sparingly. Eventually, less than five of the 525 minutes of Beatles music was subjected to this process. Finally, as is common with today's music, overall limiting - to increase the volume level of the CD - has been used, but on the stereo versions only. However, it was unanimously agreed that because of the importance of The Beatles' music, limiting would be used moderately, so as to retain the original dynamics of the recordings.
When all of the albums had been transferred, each song was then listened to several times to locate any of the agreed imperfections. These were then addressed by Guy Massey, working with Audio Restoration engineer Simon Gibson.
Mastering could now take place, once the earliest vinyl pressings, along with the existing CDs, were loaded into Pro Tools, thus allowing comparisons to be made with the original master tapes during the equalization process. When an album had been completed, it was auditioned the next day in studio three - a room familiar to the engineers, as all of the recent Beatles mixing projects had taken place in there - and any further alteration of EQ could be addressed back in the mastering room. Following the initial satisfaction of Guy and Steve, Allan Rouse and Mike Heatley then checked each new re-master in yet another location and offered any further suggestions. This continued until all 13 albums were completed to the team's satisfaction.
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| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 7/30/2009 2:05:36 AM | I don't think you fully understand what the re-mastering processes is. - late™
No, nor do I want to. All I want is the music from I band I love to have that thick wave of sound it had on vinyl records again. Like I said before, Ringo's drums used to have a broad, all encompassing whollop to them. Now they sound isolated and timid on CDs. It's such a shame to restrict the impact of Ringo's drums. George Martin worked very hard to give Ringo's drums a distinct sound from one song to the next. Maybe Capital has made improvements to The Beatles' CDs since I bought mine. (It was probably 15 years ago.) But I recall that moment in the middle of "I Feel Fine" when the rest of the band breaks away and leaves only the rhythm guitar playing, when Ringo kicked that song back into gear, it would floor me! Now it sounds as if he's politely tapping his way back into the song. I sincerely hope you're right and they retrieve that fat sound again. I'd buy that for a dollar! | |
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| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 7/30/2009 7:47:35 PM |
it's a bit like photoshopping the Mona Lisa
I think it's a bit more like maintaining the Mona Lisa and removing the tarnish time leaves behind. When I listen to a beatles song, i want to hear *them*, not the static and other flaws of a now outdated recording system. If they can do anything to make it sound more like they're in my living room and singing just for me, then I'm all for it! | |
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| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 7/30/2009 10:42:04 PM |
If they can do anything to make it sound more like they're in my living room and singing just for me.
You'd need to leave the digital conversion out and cut a premium vinyl pressing...then throw it on a decent table....digital sounds "flat" ....analogue sounds "3D" | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 17 | |
| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 7/31/2009 12:02:10 PM | You'd need to leave the digital conversion out and cut a premium vinyl pressing...then throw it on a decent table....digital sounds "flat" ....analogue sounds "3D"
Alas, no plans to do a vinyl remaster...
No point anywho, the convertors used in modern mastering studios are light-years beyond what was used when most of the old LPs were released on CD, compare todays best computers to what was current in the 80s to get an idea of the scale of progress. The same goes for the D/A convertors and found in current playback decks, even consumer decks, the problem of jitter was eliminated in 'o8 as all audiophile and consumer grade digital systems now encode the data clock into the coded data itself, though if you get a deck at the same price-point as a high-end table, it'll smoke it without breakin' a sweat, provided the source material is current, ...or it's saayyy, ...Sept 9.
[1]Discussions regarding the digital distribution of the catalogue will continue...
~ EMI/Apple Corp (not INC)
For the high-end audio dudes and dudettes:
[1]If/when/hopefully/please/please/please, the collection is released onto DVD Audio (24/192), it will be possible to hear the exact same sound the engineers heard if you have the hardware for it, so I'm keeping fingers crossed. DSD/ Super Audio CD isn't going to be an option as ProTools hardware was used and they don't speak DSD.
So, Sept 9, I'm going to try to at least get the White Album and if I do, I'm gonna' visit a killer listening room at a mastering studio a few miles from me, pop it into the Tascam DV-RA1000, turn on the NAD preamp, fire up the Bryston 2B (Same as Abbey Road) and sit in the "sweet-spot" between the Tannoy Golds (the same model speakers the Beatles mixed with at Abbey Road), sip tea and close my eyes.  Then off to the mastering room with the Dynaudio AIR 20s, w/ time corrected crossovers, where face melting will commence. (Hey Griffy, if yer readin' this, Sept 9, ...not a good day to work)
"Semolina pilchard, climbing up the eiffel tower.
Elementary penguin singing hari krishna.
Man, you should have seen them kicking edgar allan poe...."
[1] yeah, I know they're probably "discussing" downloads, but my idea's better. | |
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| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 7/31/2009 1:25:18 PM |
So, Sept 9, I'm going to try to at least get the White Album and if I do, I'm gonna' visit a killer listening room at a mastering studio a few miles from me, pop it into the Tascam DV-RA1000, turn on the NAD preamp, fire up the Bryston 2B (Same as Abbey Road) and sit in the "sweet-spot" between the Tannoy Golds (the same model speakers the Beatles mixed with at Abbey Road), sip tea and close my eyes. Then off to the mastering room with the Dynaudio AIR 20s, w/ time corrected crossovers, where face melting will commence. (Hey Griffy, if yer readin' this, Sept 9, ...not a good day to work)
lol, Late, I was waiting for you to include lighting up a doobie, as I was going to bust you for screwing up your own bandwidth, after all the audiophile dissertation....but no!... tea will do.... | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 20 | |
| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 8/1/2009 6:21:57 PM |
I will bring the grilled cheese sandwiches
Gman, the listening room at Renegade Studio? ...you'd be wise to bring your guitars too.
I was waiting for you to include lighting up a doobie
When in Rome....
I was going to bust you for screwing up your own bandwidth
More mids!!!
Yeah, I get sick of hearing that, have these producers ever heard of "woman tone" or what...
I listened to a recent Mavis Staples CD (produced by Ry Cooder), and Silk Road Journeys: Beyond the Horizon, with Yoyo Ma and the Silk Road Ensemble on this system, and it blew my mind
...Those who know me well know I'm an analog nazi, ...but when it comes to storage media, ...digital has surpassed vinyl in the last few years, ...I'm still an analog signal path junkie in every other aspect of performing and tracking. | |
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| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 8/1/2009 11:21:38 PM | It's about time. The original Beatles CDs released circa 1988 sound somewhat disapointing compared to the vinyl of old. I hope they don't mess this up!
I am a bit sad that there won't be any bonus tracks...Most of their albums were barely 36 minutes, and getting a 36 minute CD at today's prices feels like a rip off.
Maybe all the "Past Masters" tracks should have been bonus tracks, eliminating the need for a new version of "Past Masters".
I will buy these... | |
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| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 8/14/2009 11:10:55 AM | | they should have a special release for die-hards | |
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| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 8/25/2009 6:53:23 PM | It's about time. The original Beatles CDs released circa 1988 sound somewhat disapointing compared to the vinyl of old. I hope they don't mess this up! - soundchaser1962
That was what I was trying to say, in a round about way. There are things I like about CDs. I love being able to instantly select different songs and not having to flip the disc over. Believe me, if they make it sound the way it used to but BETTER, I would buy the whole boxed set!
One last point: I still miss that fold out album cover art though! I remember sitting and intensely looking and analizing the album cover while the record played. It didn't matter that I had already looked at it a million times already. I just don't do that with CDs as much. Of course, everything about music seems a lot cooler when you're a teenager. Even though I would probably turn it off after the first track today, I listened to "Cheech and Chong" with my little brother over and over again! (Anybody remember the huge joint rolling paper that came in one of their albums? Stone groove, man! | |
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| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 8/26/2009 12:21:15 PM | | I think it's just another cash grab; the existing cd recordings sound excellent as they are... just goes to show what a great job George Martin did in the first place. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 25 | |
| Beatles Re-Mastered
Posted: 8/26/2009 1:02:03 PM |
the existing cd recordings sound excellent as they are..
There are some ears that won't be able to discern any difference between a low resolution MP3 and an actual master recording.
This won't make a difference to them. But for any Beatles aficionado who can appreciate quality audio, ...it's going to be like Christmas.
just goes to show what a great job George Martin did in the first place.
Neither he, nor the Beatles were big fans of the original EMI analog masters. | |
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