| Defining the Term "Abusing the System" Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/30/2009 7:18:58 PM | In any discussion about welfare, it seems inevitable that the subject of people who are "abusing the system" of welfare comes up. What is your definition of people who are the abusers? In another thread on another forum within POF, this came up in a discussion. Here are some pertinent posts:
A poster mentioned welfare being used for people who experienced misfortune and had bad luck hit them. A question was then posed:
Is it because misfortune and bad luck hit them, or did some of them chose their circumstances? In America, we have a lot of people who choose to be poor and destitute, by having out of wedlock births while they are still teenagers.
The poster responded:
Like I said (straight after what you quoted), there are always going to be people who abuse the system. I just don't believe they are in the majority.
To which the questioner responded with another question, which is part of the question being asked in this new thread:
It depends upon what a person's definition of "abusing the system" is. I think people that cause their own misfortune by getting pregnant as teens are abusing the system, but many people don't agree.
So, in summary, what are some examples of people abusing the system of welfare? Do you think teens that get pregnant and keep the child by going on welfare fall under the definition of "abusing the system"? | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/30/2009 7:47:23 PM | No I don't think that is abusing the system anymore then 20 or 30 year olds getting pregnant and getting on welfare.
I think if ANYONE gets on welfare without intentions of getting back on their feet and getting off of it are abusing the system.
I think anyone who gets on unemployment and instead of looking for a job sits on their ass until the checks run out are abusing the system.
I think anyone who gets on disability for drug use is abusing the system.
I have a acquittance who is married to a man that makes decent money...has 2 kids by 2 different dads that she gets full child support for from both the dads and they still go every year and sign up for the Angel tree at Christmas. Ugh.
All of it makes me sick and I have far to much self respect to ever do any of it. I'd work at McDonalds before I asked for help. But that's just me. | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/30/2009 7:58:06 PM | My ex's girlfriend gets section 8 which pays $800 in rent for her house (here in Tennessee in most towns at that price you get a pretty nice place) she also gets $100 a month towards utilities, plus child care is paid for, she also gets tncare (Medicaid) and $500 a month in food stamps and on top of that child support for her two kids.
She also doesn't work, says she has no reason to, Yet she sends her kids to daycare every day. That to me is abusing the system.
I will admit myself that I do get food stamps, I get $108 a month for myself and my son. I was also offered child care assistance but it only covers $60 of the $110 the daycares charge and they charge me for the week my son is at his dad's 2 hours away from here. The neighbor charges me $10 a day only on days she watches him so I don't take what the state offered. My son is covered under his dads insurance so the food stamps is the only welfare I get.
I go to school full time and have a part time job, I get no child support. School is paid with scholarships and grants and I get a little back each semester for living cost and with my job I have just enough to pay bills and buy the things we need. Without the help I get in food stamps I would face many days where it would be either my son or myself eating, he would always come first so I really appreciate the help I do get.
I don't believe people in situations like mine are abusing the system. I understand its just short term. In less than a year I will be out of school and I will also have a higher paying job and will be able to support myself better.
Do you think teens that get pregnant and keep the child by going on welfare fall under the definition of "abusing the system"?
I really think it depends. Some just need a little help while they get out of school, some will abuse the system. I think a lot of it depends on how their parents are and if they are the type to milk the system or if they use it as an aid to help them get ahead.
I wasn't a teen when I had my son but I did think about giving him up. I believed that my situation was short term and I know that in the long run keeping him was the best for me and him. I'm sure some others see it the same way, even though it doesn't always end up the way it should. | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/30/2009 8:07:09 PM | I am ok with people using it for short term emergencies, or if the kid is very young asnd uses some assistance to supplement work income so the child has at least one parent as a primary caregiver rather than being raised in daycare.
I am glad it exists because no child should have to suffer or go without needs met because it has idiotic parents.
Even if the parent is an idiot abusing the system i am glad that the innocent child in the equation has dinner every night. | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/30/2009 8:17:54 PM | The problem with the Welfare system though is that even if someone wants and tries to get off of it, its nearly impossible unless you somehow come into a nice amount of money.
I get assistance with child care and every few months they re-evaluate my finances. If I work overtime, they count it. If, however, I only work 25hrs one week that month b/c either my son or I get sick they still count it as 40 b/c that is what my job scheduled me for. Well, they didn't schedule me for OT, but its counted. If someone on welfare makes $5 extra that month, the system takes it by upping our copays.
I agree that there are some who abuse it and sit around on their lazy, no good asses. But there are lots of us who try to get off the system, but its very difficult. They have access to all accounts and can see if you have savings. If you have money in savings then you don't need the help. Goodluck saving for a rainy day. | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/30/2009 8:29:26 PM |
The problem with the Welfare system though is that even if someone wants and tries to get off of it, its nearly impossible unless you somehow come into a nice amount of money.
That is so very true. I find it funny that they can set a budget of $900 for a family a month and if you make more they cut your aid, if you save anything they cut it, anything you do to try to get ahead they cut it. Thats the main reason I refused a lot of the aid. According to them with what I get back from school funds and my job, if they went after child support they would keep anything that he paid.(to pay the state back) To me its better if he buys clothes and diapers (and this week a toddler bed) I might not get child support but I do get things my son needs without the state telling me that they need the money more than I do. | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/30/2009 8:37:29 PM | | It amazes me the kinds of people they actually give the money to though. I work full time and go to school full time. I pay $144/month for daycare and they cover the rest which is great. I know lots of people who go to school 2-3hrs a day and don't work at all, but have their kids in daycare, yet the state practically throws money at these people. | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/30/2009 9:24:54 PM | I get food stamps and medical for my household. I go to school and my ex is currently taking care of the kids while I'm in school. We also got LIHEAP (energy assistance) this year. I'm looking for some shit job while I'm in school.
I can't get Section 8 or public housing (AKA projects which I refuse to do) because I won't take my kids' dad for support. ( total BS, 3/4 of the single moms in my area don't take their baby daddy for support and get everything they can) I had to fight tooth and nail to get what I do. Yet my friend can't get anything for her bipolar because she makes less than 10 bucks too much. Even now she can't get anything and she has a broken shoulder and can't work for probably another 2 weeks at least. Yet...certain people can walk in and get whatever they want and most of them are dressed better than I am! It seriously pisses me off!! | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/30/2009 10:40:55 PM | Well, here in Australia, we don't get food stamps and some of the other things people talk about here.. However, what we do get, depending on your circumstance is:
Fortnightly payments are categorised as:
*Parenting payment
*Aus Study (fortnightly payment for people over 25 while studying full-time)
*New Start Allowance (job seekers) (must record in a fortnightly diary evidence of their efforts in seeking work (e.g. companies they have sought work through, phone numbers, details etc.)
*Youth allowance )under 25, job seekers or students.
* Disability pension
There is a couple more I think but can't be bothered looking at the moment.
*Family payment, tax A and B.. This payment is entitled to most people unless your earnings are in excess of $100, 000. Obviously, the less you earn the more you will receive. Low income earners and people claiming parenting allowance etc., receive around $300 a fortnight for 1 child. You can either receive it fortnightly or at the end of financial year in a lump sum. If you have miscalculated your earnings, you may owe some money if you underestimate, or be reimbursed if you overestimated.
Then there is "rent assistance" which is only payable to those people who are low income earners and or receiving benefits like the ones mentioned above. This payment is only accessible to those renting, it is not accessible to people who are paying a mortgage.
There are some other payments, and assistance available but, that would mean I would have to search the government site which I don't have time for at the moment.
People on benefits are able to earn something like $200 gross a fortnight (from work) before any deductions are made to their payments. Any earnings over that amount will decrease government payments by, I think its 0.30 cents for every dollar earned over the amount till you reach a limit, then it is 0.50 cents in the dollar. So basically, if you have earned enough to support yourself in that fortnight, you do not receive a payment for that fortnight, but will still receive the rent assistance if entitled to it.
(Don't quote me fully on these figures, as they are from memory, not from a statement)
Another payment that all citizens are entitled to (I'm pretty sure there is no limit on earnings for this payment) is the, one off payment for every new child born which is something like a lump sum payment of $4000. This payment is intended for parents to purchase the relevant supplies, furniture, nappies, etc., that are necessary for a child. However, there is no law to say how you spend that money, so it can easily be spent on anything a person chooses.
So here is what I consider "abusing the system"
1. People who deliberately get pregnant to receive the one off payment of $4000
2. People who continue to have children simply to claim parenting allowance and other benefits payable to "single parents" and couples.
3. People who refuse to accept perfectly reasonable employment.
4. people who simply to refuse work altogether.
5. People who claim assistance but, do not report their earnings (e.g. cash payments for work)
6. People who falsely claim disability payments
7. People who are more than capable of working but refuse to do so.
8. People who make multiple claims under different names.
9. Parents who continue not to work even though their children are in school.
10. People who undertake courses or university and claim Aus study (study assistance) just so they do not have to work. (there is no obligation to work while studying)
11. Woman who deliberately get pregnant by different men to receive parenting allowance and child support. (yes it does happen) Obviously, the more kids you have, the more you get paid.
12. People who spend their one off baby payment ($4,000) on themselves (e.g. new play station, tv, drugs, gambling etc.) instead of using the money to buy necessitities such as cots, prams, baby food, nappies, reliable vehicle etc.
I'm sure there is many more "system abusing ways" that I have not mentioned or thought of at the moment.
I don't see a problem with single parents claiming the benefits they are entitled to, until their children are in school or similar. I think its better that the parent looks after their child rather than sending them to day care. However, most single parents I know that claim the parenting allowance still do some casual work to supplement their income. Once their child is in school, they find employment that suits school hours or pay for after school care to ensure a full days work. We pay taxes that entitle us to receiving these payments when we need them.
I despise "dole bludgers" (welfare cheats) and woman that deliberately get pregnant to receive extra benefits and one off payments. These people have no consideration of the children that they bring into this world and many, simply couldn't give a sh*t about their children. These are the kids that regularly break into cars, houses, assault people for their money, rob businesses, sell drugs and so on. People blame the kids and call them delinquents, deviants etc., when, its the parents that should be held accountable for their lack of interest in their children and their negative attitude towards society and the government and law enforcing agencies. Some people should be made sterile. | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/30/2009 10:50:51 PM |
I despise "dole bludgers" (welfare cheats) and woman that deliberately get pregnant to receive extra benefits and one off payments. These people have no consideration of the children that they bring into this world and many, simply couldn't give a sh*t about their children. These are the kids that regularly break into cars, houses, assault people for their money, rob businesses, sell drugs and so on. People blame the kids and call them delinquents, deviants etc., when, its the parents that should be held accountable for their lack of interest in their children and their negative attitude towards society and the government and law enforcing agencies. Some people should be made sterile.
rustic36,
Thanks for your extremely informative and thoughtful response. I agree with all of your "abuse" examples, also. | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/30/2009 11:06:53 PM | | if you are going to talk about abuse in the government let's talk about the business man who abuse the poor taspayers...also the politicians...why is it only poor people? there is some abuse in welfare...but there are scams in other areas...that is bad too...what about the doctors who abuse the health system? or those poor people who have lost their money? abuse and taking advantage of people is not good...what comes around will go around...those con artist will suffer their conseuqences. | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/30/2009 11:24:27 PM | Ah ha! Politicians... What about our own President? The "great" Obama? He was a senator during the campaign for presidency. He CONTINUED to be paid while he campaigned... He didn't work for the year (give or take) that he was campaigning... Yes, Palin was Governor, but she didn't continue to be paid while she campaigned. Plus she was ASKED to run as VP. She didn't wake up one day and say, "I think I'm gonna run for VP..."
Plus Teddy Kennedy... DOn't get me started there... He drove a chick into a lake and didn't even get a slap on the wrist!! | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/30/2009 11:41:49 PM | Futureshock,
Yes, I am a Republican. And proudly so. I'm not saying that Republican politicians aren't corrupt, its just those 2 are the ones that immediately came to mind.
I have my views on Obama, but I'm not gonna voice them here... | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/30/2009 11:43:17 PM |
I get food stamps and medical for my household. I go to school and my ex is currently taking care of the kids while I'm in school. We also got LIHEAP (energy assistance) this year. I'm looking for some shit job while I'm in school.
You don't think REPUBLICANS voted for these forms of assistance, do you? | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/30/2009 11:51:41 PM | I never said they did.
I don't have the "entitlement mentality" that alot of people on Welfare seem to have. The "I'm entitled to it. I am eligible, so I'm going to get it and do nothing about my current state" types. I'm going to school I'll be done in Feb, I'm looking for work, and doing what I have to to make myself better and contribute to society. I'm not on Welfare because I WANT to be. I'm on it because I HAVE to be. At least for a few more months.
I don't agree with the lifetime Welfare people. The ones that are on Welfare for the free ride. I know I made a lot of mistakes in my life. The point is, I'm trying to overcome them now. I just need some help doing it.
I'm not a Democrat. I can't stand most of em. Thinking that spending ourselves into oblivion will "fix" the current economic state... Yeah right!!! If a family is in a financial shit hole, they don't spend like mad thinking that this will fix everything. Its no different from running a country. | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/31/2009 12:56:38 AM |
if you are going to talk about abuse in the government let's talk about the business man who abuse the poor taspayers...also the politicians...why is it only poor people? there is some abuse in welfare...but there are scams in other areas...that is bad too...what about the doctors who abuse the health system? or those poor people who have lost their money? abuse and taking advantage of people is not good...what comes around will go around...those con artist will suffer their conseuqences.
Maybe because the question was:
Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/31/2009 5:51:18 AM | For me, people who abuse the system are people who really don't need the help but go down there and lie and cry about how they don't have money to feed their children.
I used to date a guy who's ex girlfriend had a daughter with a medical condition. Well during one of the surgeries to attempt to make the girl better the doctor messed up and she sued them for thousands of dollars. But she still gets food stamps. Why? Because welfare (at least here) is not allowed to take into account money won by the lottery, money left by a person who died, or money won in any type of lawsuit. So here this woman is, taking all sorts of trips to Disneyland, Hawaii, whatnot, and still getting a few hundred dollars in food stamps each month. I know that they are not allowed to take this into account, because I asked someone I know who works down at Job and Family Services, and they explained it to me. Personally if I was receiving food stamps and I came into a large sum of money, I'd tell Job and Family I didn't need help anymore.
There are people who sell drugs on the side, or work under the table jobs, and make plenty of money, yet they don't tell welfare about this income and still go down their to collect their check. And yet while claiming they have no money, they still somehow found money to buy nice cars and support their drug habit while waiting on welfare to hand them a check. I have been down to the office of Job and Family, and there are people down there driving brand new cars asking for a welfare check.
I just feel that the system is there for people who need it, but if you truly don't you shouldn't abuse it. If you worked for years and payed into it, and then you fell on hard times and needed it, that's what it's there for. | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/31/2009 7:48:00 AM |
Well during one of the surgeries to attempt to make the girl better the doctor messed up and she sued them for thousands of dollars.
Every surgery is a risk, why do people have to sue doctors for making a mistake? after all, they are human. One day, doctors might refuse to operate for fear of a patient suing. People should sue the government for making doctors having to work ridiculous hours because of the lack of funding and shortages of staff..
But she still gets food stamps. Why?
Because she expects to be given everything for free rather than contributing to society. She saw the failed operation as another way of getting "free" money without having to work for it. No consideration for the implications of her actions.
Sorry Future, veering off topic there..lol | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/31/2009 8:08:30 AM | "Abusing the System" to me includes:
- persons who are very capable of employment, who choose not to work ... collecting a government cheque.
- persons who keep making babies in order to keep them on the government payroll
- parents who claim to be single and "needy", yet have a bf/gf with a good income living with them.
- persons who lie in any shape or form in order to get a government cheque.
Teens getting pregnant and going on welfare is certainly a drain on the system ... but... giving them welfare is the only way to try to stop extreme child poverty . One option they could use in some cases, is to refuse welfare and hold the parents resposible for their teenagers doings - but that would only work for those families who are in good financial situations.
Option "B" would be to simply refuse welfare ... forcing the teens to either consider abortion or adoption, or to work extremely hard to cover their costs of living - with only subsidized help at most.
Part of the problem stems from young girls and their partners knowing that there will be financial aid ... for the sake of the innocent little babies. I would dare say that kids might be a little more careful about pregnancy if they knew there was no help available.
A young girl I know who is very pregnant but living with her boyfriend who makes a respectable income mentioned the other day to me about getting "welfare" ... "well, the baby will have needs, and that's what it's for". (This same girl has totally screwed up priorities financially ... can blow quite a bit of money on herself and on a puppy, yet is worried about diapers and baby food?!)
In the end though ... unless the government is willing to force sterilization, abortion, adoption, or removal of children from "welfare" homes ... there is not much that can be done now. We just can't deny the innocent victims ... the babies/children ... food and shelter. | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/31/2009 11:38:12 AM | What constitutes abuse of the welfare system is a moot point to me because I believe it needs to be halted, period. Private charities will spring up to replace many of the services provided by the government. Because they're privately run, they will be much more efficient and better at sniffing out abuse.
Most of the money saved can be given back to its rightful owners, the tax payers, not some welfare garbage that never earned it in the first place. The rest of the money can be used to beef up the police force and build more prisons for any welfare trash that resorts to criminal behavior to finance their lifestyles now that their free meal ticket is gone.
We'll see a drastic reduction in people having children they can't support. With the "we'll just go on welfare" option obliterated, people will have to rediscover a little something long since forgotten in western civilization; personal responsibility. | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/31/2009 11:40:58 AM | If one had savings they wouldnt need welfare.
Its a last resort, not you save your money and spend the taxpayers.
Im not against welfare for people in an emergency, such as a job lay off or someone cant work due to illness or crisis in the family, or a disaster hit or even if you are just using it to put food on the table while you get back on your feet.
If you have money in savings then you don't need the help.
Thats right, you dont.
Goodluck saving for a rainy day.
If one is in a financial crunch or crisis to the point of needing help, that IS THE RAINY DAY. If i am faced with a crunch to where i think i might need help feeding and housing my kids, darn right i am going to go pull my savings out of the bank to take care of them.
Not trtying to be snarky, i do believe that welfare is neceserry because ,
A. Shit happens
B. No kid should go without, despite poor choices on their parents part.
But feeling that one should use the taxpayer dime to spend while saving their own money is taking away from people who are in genuine crisis. | |
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| Defining the Term Abusing the System Regarding Welfare
Posted: 7/31/2009 11:57:48 AM | | im moving to the states f this! on june 10th i was put off work with post traumatic stress disorder well waiting for ei or the insurance to decide to pay me i had no choice to go to welfare or Ontario works whatever they call themselves and even with being off due to a medical condition they paid me 1021 for me and my daughter my rent alone is 845 lol. and then made me sign papers that as soon as either my unemployment or insurance money came i would pay them back.... that killed me as i can honestly say that was the only month in my gd life i ever got5 anything other then a mat leave. but i had a friend who's got preg at 16 has been on welfare since had a 2 more kids cuz they where gona make her work. now sits on her ass by choice because she likes to volunteer at the kids school must be f -ing nice to be some ppl really is making me mad everytime i think about it...... | |
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