|
|
|
|
|
| Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free?
Posted: 8/1/2009 10:14:58 PM | I say North America because that is the culture I know. Feel free to say what you have to say...
I remember a friend saying to me once “there is free and then there is libertine.” In a way I kind of agree with him because this freedom seems to be causing a lot of problems. I somehow tend to link substance abuse and lack of productivity with too much freedom but that is just me.
What do you think? Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free? | |
|
| Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free?
Posted: 8/1/2009 10:25:47 PM | Free??? No it isn't too free, or at a point where it is staying free... If a person looked at all the actual restrictions, rules, regulations, and laws on them, they are NOT free.
Compare this to what other country????
What point was our country ever really free??? | |
|
| Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free?
Posted: 8/1/2009 10:27:13 PM |
What do you think? Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free?
I believe that true freedom will never come to Americans until you amend one word in your Constitution. The line that reads "freedom of religion" should read "freedom from religion". Then and only then will you have true freedom. Then you can have great people run your country rather than someone who has to admit he/she believes in God. | |
|
| |
| |
| Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free?
Posted: 8/1/2009 10:55:00 PM | Well ok, we obviously aren't completely free but I think there are areas where we have too much freedom; not enough discipline might be a better way of putting it.
I don't think that I am insane to think that we have freedom here. Complete freedom would also mean chaos and is definitely not the way to go... | |
|
| |
| Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free?
Posted: 8/1/2009 10:59:57 PM | | So JustDukky, which countries are (comparatively) free? Can I choose which psychologist will treat me, under your statement? Why do residents of Nicaragua, Honduras, go through all the trouble to come here illegally? Why not go to Brazil? Don't tell me they are headed to Canada. As much as I disdain the tramples of freedom via Cheney, I am very happy to be born here and live here. So what are the other free countries you speak of? | |
|
| Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free?
Posted: 8/1/2009 11:36:44 PM | I think we are far from free in North America, and pretty much the entire world for that matter. Voluntary slavery to the monetary system (which loses voluntary status the minute you decide to no longer take part in it), it's rare that people actually get into a job they enjoy, and it's frightening how many live day to day working their butt off to end up skipping a bill or two just so that they can afford a tiny bit of luxury. Nearly forced style and fashion, if you don't subscribe to the popular images (which there are plenty to choose from at least) then you are shunned and treated like you do not belong in society effectively limiting where you can go and when you can go there. Bearing arms to protect yourself, yeah right, the second you use it your facing a life of running or jail time even if the victim truly deserved it and was threatening your life. Say something the wrong way and you'll face a number of character assault, some of which lead again to jail time.
For each rule or law you abide by, you are accepting a loss of freedom, it's not a complaint or flame, it's simply a fact. | |
|
| Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free?
Posted: 8/2/2009 12:00:58 AM | OP
Do you mean "free" as in being "free" to strive for the "pursuit of happiness?' or free as in, "free to be irresponsible to the point where the government will take care of me?" There's a mighty big difference there.
A big chunk of my tax dollars go to the latter. That means I'm less able to pursue the former.
Excuse me while I step out and try to sky jump off the Sears Tower, get hung up on a wire on the 200th floor, and expect the "guv mint" helicopters to come and save me.
 | |
|
| |
| |
| Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free?
Posted: 8/2/2009 4:47:37 AM | Complete freedom would also mean chaos and is definitely not the way to go..
Complete freedom is the ONLY way to go! I demand it for myself and wish it for everyone else.
Everyone makes the assumption that rights must be traded away for a functional society. I say it isn't so. I have yet to see anyone prove me wrong. I stongly suspect everyone has been programmed to think like a serf.
So what are the other free countries you speak of?
There are as yet no truly free countries on Earth, but there are a few that look pretty good to me. Those would be Venezuela, Norway, Switzerland and Russia seems to be improving. Canada is one of the worst, but I think some Canadians are going to lead the world to Utopia (I love that word - The only reason it sounds like an absurd naive dream is because people have been conditioned to think it's impossible. When will we learn that it sits before us like a ripened fruit on a tree, ready for the picking?) The human race is about to step into a future we could once only imagine...unless we truly are "sheeple." all it's going to take is a bit of deprogramming and some courage. Are we up for it?
Voluntary slavery to the monetary system (which loses voluntary status the minute you decide to no longer take part in it)
Spoken like a free man -- good post.
For each rule or law you abide by, you are accepting a loss of freedom, it's not a complaint or flame, it's simply a fact.
In one way you are right, but in the way most people assume it, you are wrong. The only freedom you lose under a law is the freedom to be an "outlaw" with impunity. The only laws that count are the laws preserving your rights. Abiding by them is only your agreement to respect those rights in others. That doesn't seem such a high price to pay...
The problem is too many people don't know what to do with freedom.
If we look at history, it seems freedom is a "hot potato" that people give away at the first opportunity. It's strange that something they would spill so much blood to obtain, simply gets handed off to the first "leader" that comes along. There may yet prove to be something to this "sheeple" business, but I don't like to believe it. I prefer to think people just don't know any better, and once they really learn what it's all about, they will treasure the freedom their ancestors died for. Believe it or not, I have great faith in the human race. I know you guys won't let me down...Not in the long run anyway.
If we exercised the real freedom we have, the world would be a much different place.
And that is my point...Beautifully put! | |
|
| Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free?
Posted: 8/2/2009 11:08:38 AM |
The problem isn't too much freedom.
The problem is too many people don't know what to do with freedom.
If we exercised the real freedom we have, the world would be a much different place.
Well said. This is only my opinion, after reading up on the history and documents surrounding the writing of the Constitution, but what the words "pursuit of happiness" were meant to convey was "pursuit of happiness" ruled by rational, normative thought. My pursuit of happiness ends where it conflicts with another person's same pursuit, and rational, normative discussion prevails in working conflict out.
Am I naive enough to think that this could happen completely? No, but I like the idea of implementing this form of thought to the extent possible. The problem seems to be that most cultures have evolved into "power enhancing" mechanisms -- political, religious, economic, etc. These require upkeep, including manpower, resources, and sustainability into the future. I believe that we're at a point now where the major stakeholders in our governance system ARE the institutions that we've created (who else has the lobbying money), and that, in many instances, policy actions are in the interest OF and FOR the institutions, rather than the citizens. In return, the institutions give us "entitlements" -- we'll take care of you (wink wink). But they're the ones with the free Blackberries, driver and limo, nice retirement, etc.
So, "pursuit of happiness" many times stands dialectically opposed to "free to do anything you want, including destructive things" because the latter robs us of our ability to truly pursue happiness. The middle class works until, I believe March or April of every year to pay their taxes to the "guv mint." Some of the tax money is truly necessary; some of it is not. But that's less money for the middle class to "pursue happiness" and more money available for the government, which is now able to be less frugal about spending, especially on entitlements. Here, I would be careful to point out that, based on expenditures alone, no one should construe "entitlements" to mean strictly, "money to the TRULY needy." Heck, the Bridge to Nowhere sure didn't put a lot of homeless off the street. Some of our TARP funds were spent on lavish retreats to countries most of us only dream of visiting, etc. etc. Entitlements, not only for the poor.
Well, if you've read this far, Thank you for all swimming through this pond of thought. Forgive me for any indiscretionary thought -- just one person's ideas. And I'm "free" to admit the fallacies of my views -- rational thought, after all, is not the vehicle of only one person. | |
|
| |
| Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free?
Posted: 8/2/2009 12:17:19 PM | As always Dukky, Krebby have cleared things in a way to make "freedom" and its meaning more clear... Of course there is a slight conflict between the two, because Dukky is In Canada and Krebby in the US.
Op, I haven't met a large number of these "happily free" people that were substance abusers. In fact most of them were miserable, with "a monkey tied to their back", and continued that way of life because they felt trapped in it.
On the flip side, I also seen very productive people, that were also substance "abusers", it keep then running during the day, and sleeping at night... Michael Jackson would be an example, as would Heath Ledger, and the very long list of artists, and performers who passed from this world through acts of substance use, and apparent abuse.
For a lot of these people these drugs were locked away, and handed out by a Dr, or a few in MJ's case.
I don't find freedom a cause of substance abuse, because with the exception of the legalization of alcohol, and cold medicine, these things aren't freely prescribed, but determined as a "need" by someone that has a higher degree of authority on the subject, than the commoner.
For the rest, they aren't freely using these drugs, but rather illegally partaking, and selling, which for some is a very lucrative venture, that is as long as they stay out of this country, and free of the addiction to these substance.
So we add this to the "pursuit of happiness"... Many times as my life as an x ray tech in a trauma hospital I seen others freedom, and pursuit of happiness cut short because some FOOL decided their illegal activity was more important then anyone else.
My favorite, most adored Professor lost her life this mo. 4 yrs ago by some ILLEGAL FOOL, on multiple substances, he slammed into her, and she died instantly, he climbed into the passenger side curled up in a ball, and said the drive bailed...
This lady was 52, she married her HS sweet heart, had raised her most loved son to adulthood, had taken the Radiography program from its position of just being in the community, to it being a satellite program in distant areas that didn't have a program for students to learn the trade............
Was she done with her pursuit of happiness at 52???
In the years since there was a WAR declared on drugs, there has not been an actual DENT in usage, except there are a hell of a lot of pot heads doing hard time, because it's an illegal drug, and that seems to be worth our Tax money to lock up pot heads. Of course logic of our guv mint fails again, since these are the least likely to be stealing, armed robbing, or committing heinous crimes against others for drug money...
Don't get me wrong, the large growers in Oregon carry guns, and have been known to have serious booby traps to protect their pursuit of financial happiness. Oddly enough after a long enough fight, the guv mint, is looking to just tax the hell out of the pot, and make money right along side these growers.. Admittedly out of all the states in our union, Oregon is generally ahead of the pack in its ideas of what is perhaps more right than wrong...
IE: Oregon was the first state to legalize physician suicide. Some people find that reprehensible, however there are very strict guidelines, and a person has to be months away from dying. People didn't go suicide crazy like other people predicted, in fact only 54 people used it in the first year of it becoming legal...
This freedom allowed for a choice of death with dignity. No family members infringe on their dying loved ones wishes, and push them to use this alternative, these people have to be coherent and know exactly the choice they are making. Freedom to die within their rights of what they believe is right and wrong, I see that as a gain for a sane death...
I worked with people who suffered for months on end, and sometimes as an x ray tech took the LAST BREATH of a loved one, as I had to put a 20 LB, hard plate behind their back, and shuffle them around in position.
By the way, I had a true passion for my job. I fought hard as a single mother to get through school, and then moved to where I had one other known relative. I stood on my own to feet in pursuit of taking care of babies I brought into the world, where baby daddies walked away.
Krebb, don't worry, it is your 1st Amendment right to speak your mind... That right has been slipping away in the recent years, BUT it seems perhaps even the President can misspeak and have a beer with the people who have been wronged...
That is history folks...
When the hell did we think we were going to have a Black man as a President??? That is a pursuit of a dream, don't know how happy of a dream it was, but that is a pursuit to achieve a dream. IT DOESN'T MATTER if you like the guy, or hate him because he's a black man, the fact is this 100 yrs ago wouldn't have been seen as possible...
Our freedoms are being challenged, and slipping away because people are asleep... However we can stand up, we can actual make a change if we stop bickering about stupid sh!t stuff that doesn't infringe upon others rights... If we can get away from micro focus, and see the whole picture, we'd really have more freedoms...
Right now sometimes it seems the people that DO have freedom are the dip sticks who are driving impaired or taking peoples hard earned things, or killing for their desire to keep the monkey fed. THAT IS NOT FREEDOM, just people hooked, and now making piss poor choices... | |
|
| Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free?
Posted: 8/2/2009 1:03:05 PM | The problem with liberty or freedom is how do we achieve it. Sounds stupidly simple, but it's actually very complex. Positive Liberty and Negative Liberty (wiki Isaiah Berlin) are our choices. 1. Positive Liberty: Forcing you to be free (via coersion) leads to totalitarianism, and 2. Negative Liberty: Letting the individual do what they want leads to anarchy and violent revolution.
Google "The Trap: What Happened to Our Dream of Freedom" by Adam Curtis - a 3 part BBC documentary. | |
|
| Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free?
Posted: 8/2/2009 3:27:03 PM |
Everyone makes the assumption that rights must be traded away for a functional society. I say it isn't so. I have yet to see anyone prove me wrong. I stongly suspect everyone has been programmed to think like a serf.
Okay I'm not following you here.
What rights has anybody actually traded away in the Western world for "freedom" as you have yet to define it ?
You're speaking right now against a system ...cops knock on your door yet ? Ward Churchill claims that the victims of 9/11 deserved their fate and he's not locked up in Gitmo. So obviously you have free speech.
Now , I've seen you try to make the case for anarchy and for some reason you still think that it's a good idea. You completely ignore every example we have of lawless areas of the world where warlords have taken over and kill with impunity. Actually , some of the safest , most peaceful , and prosperous states in the world are probably what you'd define as places with severe restrictions on personal freedom (Singapore comes to mind first)
So perhaps you mean that we're slaves to money in some way or another ? Okay...try living without it. Head north and keep going until you haven't seen anybody for a thousand miles of travel. Voila ! You're there. Now build your utopia. Or , perhaps you mean that we pay exorbitant taxes ? Well those taxes have bought you your hospitals , clean water , roads , etc. I'd really like to know how you define freedom actually because while you seem to think that people won't take advantage of the defenseless , every word of history says you're wrong.
Further , your list of "more free nations" is strange. I'd like to know what these nations do or have done that leads you to presume that they're more free than the one you currently reside in. Frankly I'll be blunt here...you have no thought things through to their inevitable conclusions. I must either assume that you've lead a very sheltered life or you simply ignore anything that contradicts your idealized view of anarchy. | |
|
| Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free?
Posted: 8/2/2009 6:19:39 PM | | hi....we are free to vote but when politicians are caught in corruption they go free... we are free to own a home then we are not free to hang clothes or to park what we want in our driveways... we are free to express ourselves then we are forced to watch and to listen to a world losing its moral grip... I believe that the only path towards being free in this country/world is The Path of Gods Truth...Gods Truth can not be forced, nor can it be bound.. Gods Truth is not subject to any human interpretation, law or injustice... I mean the whole world can choose to go to hell and still I can choose not to.. to me that is real freedom... many blessings | |
|
| Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free?
Posted: 8/2/2009 10:30:48 PM | Gods Truth can not be forced Here... let me save you from yourself. IF you want, that is.
And that's the difference between you and I. You FORCE people to be free, while I ask you if you want to be free. Big Difference. (if you don't do what I say, I'll burn you forever)
GOD's freedom is via coersion and in my opinion, not freedom but slavery. For our own good of course. It's closer to the American Neo-Cons version than any real freedom the bible can show you. But you couldn't see that if you tried. The bible has blinded you. Many go to hells. | |
|
| |
| Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free?
Posted: 8/3/2009 12:42:41 AM |
What rights has anybody actually traded away in the Western world for "freedom" as you have yet to define it ?
The right of liberty, the right to a presumption of innocence, the right to privacy, the right to private two party contracts, the right to honesty, the right not to pay for services not required or desired, the right to own property (I'm not too big on the concept of property anyway, but I really find it comical that people value so highly a "right" they think they have, but don't), the right to be educated just as far and in whatever direction one wants to go, etc., etc.
Freedom is a simple word and often misinterpreted. It is not the "right" to do whatever you want, it is the right to do whatever you want so long as no harm comes to another as a result of your actions. Simple really; freedom is what I would call the Silver rule: Do anything you want, except Don't do to others what you don't want done to you. (It's just a step below th golden rule of compassion, which is: Do for others what you'd like done for you.)
So obviously you have free speech.
Probably because nobody'd listen anyway. I'll know they've started to when I get "the knock on the door" about a speech I've made.
I've seen you try to make the case for anarchy and for some reason you still think that it's a good idea.
If that's what you think then I didn't express myself very well. Maybe you got that idea from the name of the thread itself and because I started off sympathetic to anarchy. While I am, even a naive idiot like me knows that we have to have some sort of structure in society. My argument was that the existing structure sucks and we should tear it down (anarchy) and build a better one.
So perhaps you mean that we're slaves to money in some way or another?
Greedy capitalist/Consumerist society notwithstanding, we are not slaves to money (not all of us anyway); we are slaves to those who lend our own money back to us at exhorbitant interest (usury) and by doing so, have now accumulated the wealth of most of the planet. The only way they can make more is by "skimming off the top" of our labour because the only thing of real value is the work we do, so we get taxed to death, mostly to pay interest on our own money, created by using people's lifetime labor and "private property" as collateral.
Head north and keep going until you haven't seen anybody for a thousand miles of travel. Voila ! You're there. Now build your utopia.
You have no idea how much that appeals to me. But I would miss my friends terribly. Can you blame me for wanting to take them with me and get them off the plantation? I found a hole in the fence, but they worry that "Massa" will get mad.
perhaps you mean that we pay exorbitant taxes ? Well those taxes have bought you your hospitals , clean water , roads , etc.
They also pay for the transportation to send some pretty good people thousands of miles away and for the munitions they'll need to kill a whole bunch of people just like you and me, with families and dreams of peace and being left alone to live their lives as they see fit. Some of our side will die in the process. I don't really believe that the Afghanis asked to be bombed to death and I don't really believe our troops really want to do it, but they are trained to follow orders and lied to about "the threat of terror" so they'll kill people and risk their own lives with some semblance of a clear conscience and sense of "doing the right thing."
I don't begrudge them for wanting me to pay for hospitals, or for roads & bridges; hell; I'll throw in more than my "fair share" for stuff like that. But I'll tell you what I won't do; I won't put one ****ing cent towards one ****ing bullet to harm one ****ing human anywhere on this planet!!! If they want any money out of me for that, they'll have to kill me first!
I'd really like to know how you define freedom actually because while you seem to think that people won't take advantage of the defenseless , every word of history says you're wrong.
Now I know you've really missed my message. It is human nature (for some) to be power-mad, greedy, grasping liars, who would be happy to kill to reach "the top." My complaint is that we currently have such people in charge because good, honest, ethical people (which is most of us) are gullible and easily fooled by a line and a good con. I'd like to change that by closing the loopholes of what started out to be a well-intentioned system now run by the worst that humanity has produced.
I found a way to tear down the old, horribly corrupt system without the necessity of armed revolt, by simply withdrawing consent to be governed by these monsters. I expect it to incubate and grow inside the ugly old caterpillar we currently call a nation, until the caterpillar ceases to be and the nation has turned into something beautiful. It will be the same animal, but the behaviour will be entirely different from the behaviour of the past.
I'd like to know what these nations do or have done that leads you to presume that they're more free than the one you currently reside in.
There's just too much to tell you in that regard. I suggest you do some reading about all these nations, their early & recent history and the development of their economies. There is a lot more to them than any bullsh¡t you might have heard on CNN, or CBC.
Frankly I'll be blunt here...you have no(t) thought things through to their inevitable conclusions. I must either assume that you've lead a very sheltered life or you simply ignore anything that contradicts your idealized view of anarchy.
That is a value judgment you made based on an uninformed, parochial attitude and an erroneous interpretation of what I have been trying to say. That's OK...Let's just have a beer & forget about it.... | |
|
| Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free?
Posted: 8/3/2009 6:49:45 AM | There is no freedom without discipline and frankly we, in the west, are generally far too lax to make anything useful out of our supposed freedom.
I have lived in a few different countries and have observed that our "freedom" makes very little difference in our day to day lives. We still must toil, still must struggle with ourselves and still see and hear utter dishonest bullsh*t on the TV news. | |
|
| Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free?
Posted: 8/3/2009 8:22:16 AM | Perhaps a true measure of 'freedom" is how much you contribute to your own well-being and lifestyle. A couple hundred years ago, a slave who was suddenly "freed" found that he truly WAS free...free to starve on the street, or else go make a living. Perhaps cutting welfare would "free" many people. Free to become contributing members of society (or at least looking after themselves) or free to starve.
Unfortunatly, a number of laws seem to be in place to stop this proceedure, not to mention lack of land in which these newly "freed" people could settle in order to feed themselves and their families.
The gov't stepped into a huge pile of crap when they started "family assistance" and the welfare state. In order to maintain that they imposed more and more tax. Also, the whole idea of "infrastructure" and "government housing" comes into play. Used to be a town wanted a road, they built it from local contributions and "slave labour" from convicts. Same with bridges or anything else. A town wanted to be more "prosperous" they made their town more accesable and clean, offering better amenities. As long as they were paid for and maintained by those actually using them. The high cost of labour forced taxation not to mention "big government". Someone had to pay all those wages for services that were now offered. A hospital? Then people contributed. Patients and their families were charged for the services. Schools were paid for and teachers, by those actually using them.
With more technology wanted (needed) to maintain these things, prices skyrocketed. Again, the taxpayer was forced to foot the bill.
We can provide all kinds of arguments both for and against these things. Nothing will really work, until we are "free" from gov't interference in our daily lives.
If I want to build a house, have 3 wives and raise 10 kids, I shold have that right. If I want to keep a cow or raise chickens and feed my family from small farming I should have that right. The gov't has no need to be interfering with that. Educate the kids? Home educate them, and state test them. If they can't pass a state test, then perhaps I need the child removed to a "regualr" school for their education. Perhaps I don't. Perhaps it should be up to the family to decide who gets educated or not.
The State and society set up the "minimum standards" as to what makes a citizen....and what they "had" to have. They removed the "choice" from peoples hands. As long as I don't break the major laws (theft, murder, blah, blah) then just who am I really doing lasting harm to?
People depend on the gov't a lot more than they think. Want a steak? They expect the gov't to inspect the meat and make sure it is fit for their consumption, rather than doing it themselves.
Too many people crowded into one area seems to be the biggest problem. Not enouhg local resources for all, so things have to be imported to the market.
Spread those people out a bit. Those not working could be placed further from areas of employment. Work in a factory? You could live near it. An office? Live near it.
In Japan, one building can (and often does) supply housing, schooling, and shopping for a fmaily. They don't need to leave that building, except to go somewhere else. some even have "parks" on the roof. A person could live their whole life within that one building...no real "need" to go elsewheres.
Ahw ell...no real answers....only possibilities. | |
|
jbogie
|
Joined: 9/30/2008
Msg: 25 | |
| Do you believe that our world here in North America is too free?
Posted: 8/3/2009 8:35:03 AM | | no such animal as "too free". and your question is way to arbitrary and vague. which country in north america are you talking about. hell, for that matter, which state if you're talking about mexico and the u.s., or province if it's canada. big difference in the various constitutional freedoms. | |
|
|
|
Home
login 
