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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/15/2009 3:29:18 PM | Here is a scenario; let's say a little girl grows up in a household where her father was a great provider but not great at showing his love. No matter how much this little girl tried to get his attention he was always too busy.
This girl grows up and finds herself attracted to men very similar to her father, great providers but emotionally unavailable she works so hard trying to change him, after all she learned to work extra hard to get her father's attention, finally she succeeds he falls in love with her. At first she's overwhelmed and excited that she's won this man over...only the excitement and happiness doesn't last too long, because the loving affection is foreign to her, she doesn't know how to handle it, she runs away..The relationship ends.......
After numerous failed relationships, she starts to recognize a real pattern, she begins to soul search, trying to understand why all this is happening to her........finally she comes to understand where her behavior towards men stems from, she feels she can change it after all she has become accustomed to challenges, and her success rate is pretty high.
So...she starts to date emotionally available men, she plays the part although uncomfortable she does it despite her fears, she's anxious at times because she is not use to sitting back and enjoying the love/attention without having worked for it....Society says she should be happy, after all it's written in all the books how love shouldn't be a struggle...she tries really hard to relate, but finds herself empty....
So this woman stops dating completly and she asks...
How do we unlearn behavior............is it as simple as learning the right way, and ignoring the old way? And is it really possible to change ingrained conditioning? | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/15/2009 3:35:25 PM | | Don't give up on having a healthy relationship. It feels uncomfortable for you to be with emotionally available men because it is not what you are used to or (in your comfort zone) THe more you are involved in healthy relationships the easier it will be and the more comfortable you will become. | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/15/2009 3:39:13 PM | Sorry I should have added a disclaimer: This thread is NOT about me, it's just a topic that I'm interested in discussing.  | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/15/2009 3:39:59 PM |
How do we unlearn behavior............is it as simple as learning the right way, and ignoring the old way? And is it really possible to change ingrained conditioning?
I don't think it's as simple as learning a "right" way, AA, but certainly a conscious effort to make any changes would be required in a situation like the one you outlined. I do believe it IS possible to change ingrained conditioning, but again, it will take a conscious effort and won't happen overnight.
And I'd think the 'problem' has to be dealt with back at the source; in this case, the girl's relationship with her father. Those unresolved issues would need to be dealt with first I would think, since that seems to be the root of the current behaviour. Once someone understands and makes their peace with that, then it would probably be easier to put it into practice in a more comfortable way for themselves now. JMO, but I'm certainly no expert. | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/15/2009 3:52:59 PM | "I'll still hate you in the morning" ....
....Hmm, never thought that line would work , EVER ! | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/15/2009 3:53:14 PM |
How do we unlearn behavior............is it as simple as learning the right way, and ignoring the old way? And is it really possible to change ingrained conditioning?
First off, a person can unlearn behaviour eventually... it's not as easy however as learning something for the first time....
I think the first step is to try to avoid triggers... we react to triggers in practised ways... often unconciously... avoiding the triggers, helps your mind/body break the cycle...similarly a smoker can improve their chances of quitting by avoiding places they used to smoke at... like bars etc...
At the same time, teaching oneself NEW triggers will help... there is only so much we keep front and center in our conciousness... new tends to psh out the old.... | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/15/2009 3:53:45 PM | Thanks for that; definite "food for thought" for me...  So, there really IS such a thing as a healthy relationship  who knew? I'd like to find out, lemme tell ya  | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/15/2009 4:00:56 PM | The book Fishing by Moonlight by Colene Sawyer has a good treatment about this dilemma and how to move forward in relationships.
There's a bunch of research now that suggests that relationship patterns are set in the first 18 months or so of life;the basic emotional response patterns are programmed early on in the brain's limbic system. They're tough to shift by thought, talk, and analysis. You might google "attachment theory". PM me and I'll send you some references, if you're interested.
From everything I've learned and experienced, you can't "unlearn" it, but you can recognize it when it's happening and learn to pick partners who will work with you on managing it. Chances are, the person who is attracted to you has his own issues (which led him to be attracted to you), and you get to help him with them, as he helps you with yours. A therapist once told me, "In picking your partner, you are choosing the person with whom you will do your 'work'; choose wisely." | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/15/2009 4:14:58 PM | In this example, or so it seems to me, it is not so much behaviour as it is feelings. As a little girl she was needy of her father's attention and love. We all need that from our parents, and when we don't get that we walk around as adults with our needy little kid inside us. I'm not at all sure what the correct terminology is, but I have noticed that people either over or under compensate for not having their childhood needs met. Some will cope with this by being super independent (I don't need anyone) while others will feel they need to be needed within a relationship in order to get love. I guess they don't trust that they will get love unless they are providing an exchange for it. Or maybe it is that they feel they are not enough on their own.
The scenario is a bit harder for me to get when it develops into "she finds herself empty". I think that might mean she is numb... repressing feelings. Changing behaviours is as simple as putting a new behaviour more in existence than the old behaviour. Reminding yourself to turn right inside of your instinctive left, so to speak. But as I said at the start of my post, this seems to me to be more of a feeling thing than a behavioural thing. So, if she is feeling numb, the answer would seem to be to go back and feel those feelings from childhood because that is the point she is "stuck" and the coping strategy formed then continues to play in her adult life.
At least, that's my best guess, lol. | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/15/2009 4:22:01 PM | There's a bunch of research now that suggests that relationship patterns are set in the first 18 months or so of life;the basic emotional response patterns are programmed early on in the brain's limbic system. They're tough to shift by thought, talk, and analysis. You might google "attachment theory". PM me and I'll send you some references, if you're interested.
I kind of agree with you. All I remember about my childhood is just being.....dark. Its almost like I emerged out of darkness and never came out. I struggled a lot with this for years until pieces began to form together. My mum was having a very hard time with my dad when she had me so its almost like that cloud that hangs over me I have never been able to get rid of. I don't ever remember being a child all I remember is that every time I looked at my mum's face she wasn't smiling at me. I have worked really hard at it but its always hard for me not to be too "dark" or "deep" or "introspective" - something I just manage. Some men find it attractive though I guess coz they can't put a finger on it. They think I am just "mysterious" LOL! | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/15/2009 4:26:33 PM |
is it as simple as learning the right way, and ignoring the old way?
I'm no behaviorist but my opinion is no. You can't ignore old conditioning.
The old driving forces, influences, associations, and motivators will still trigger automatic emotional responses influencing behavior. They may be less strong than they previously were if a new way is prominent. But IMO they will still influence, accumulating in the long term or snow balling, no matter how hard you try and ignore it.
And is it really possible to change ingrained conditioning?
I don't know what you mean by change.
If you mean eliminate it by adopting a completely different way without addressing the old conditioning I would say no.
If you mean by adopting a completely different way, after addressing the old conditioning, or simply in conjunction with the old way, I would say maybe or sort of but it's going to lead to a lot of Sybil moments.
If you mean adapting the old conditioning only reconditioning automatic emotional and behavioral responses and associations from the same motivators I would say yes.
How do we unlearn behavior
By learning greater emotional control, rather than being ruled by emotion.
With the help of family, community, or people whose opinions and observations are trusted because it's based on long term knowledge, familiarity, and intimacy.
IOW tons and tons of communication and openness.
Which is really hard to find (and getting harder) due to individualization, suburban sprawl, excessive population mobility, fear based cultural movements, and a general movement towards isolationism in industrialized culture.
Or you could just hunt down a therapist and ask for behavioral and psychodynamic psychotherapies, maybe some cognitive-behavioral therapy thrown in for good measure. There are all kinds of psychos that can help. Sorry, couldn't help the pun.
Best of luck with that. | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/15/2009 4:34:58 PM | Sweetness:
And I'd think the 'problem' has to be dealt with back at the source; in this case, the girl's relationship with her father. Those unresolved issues would need to be dealt with first I would think, since that seems to be the root of the current behaviour. Once someone understands and makes their peace with that, then it would probably be easier to put it into practice in a more comfortable way for themselves now.
It’s pretty much my train of thought too Sweetness, but even asking the source (father) of his actions could be futile, especially when he doesn't know any better. I believe most parents do the best they can with as much knowledge/experience they may have had, trying to get answers from someone that is probably unaware of their own behavior is pretty hard.
M Church:
At the same time, teaching oneself NEW triggers will help... there is only so much we keep front and center in our conciousness... new tends to psh out the old....
M church…How can new trends push away the old, when the old has become part of who we are. I understand that habits can be broken, and how triggers work, but keep in mind we had awareness about smoking understood it prior to taking it on. However if a child’s first lesson about love was ‘absent love’ then learning ‘present love’ is like learning to breathe again, right?
Bicoastal:
From everything I've learned and experienced, you can't "unlearn" it, but you can recognize it when it's happening and learn to pick partners who will work with you on managing it. Chances are, the person who is attracted to you has his own issues (which led him to be attracted to you), and you get to help him with them, as he helps you with yours. A therapist once told me, "In picking your partner, you are choosing the person with whom you will do your 'work'; choose wisely."
But how can one pick partners they’re not attracted to? If this woman is only attracted to the emotionally unavailable men, who obviously have their own issues/demons are you suggesting that she keeps dating the same type? | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/15/2009 4:44:03 PM |
How do we Unlearn behavior?
Prison,
Physical beatings,
Drugs,
and the old stand by..
of reward and punishment...
At least seems to work in society..
---SoldierByte--- | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/15/2009 5:17:33 PM | I suspect that while she engaged in the attention getting behaviors, she also learned how to shut down emotionally, that is why the guys that did transform the way she wanted her father to left her feeling empty, she had forgotten how to feel at all. Often, people find what they want most isn't what they really need to be happy. I think if the woman is happy within herself, outside of a relationship and the right person comes along, she will find that it is easy and that she can be happy but she first needs to develop other relationships and open herself up to other people in general.
It's kind of like the person that wants something really really badly whether it is a car or a career, so badly that by the time they get it they don't really know why they wanted it and consequently doesn't make the person happy because getting became the goal.
And yannow, if the girl is transforming these guys like her father, they still aren't her father, hence another reason that she is dissatisfied because she never really learned to deal with her father's absence of affection. | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/15/2009 5:23:56 PM | Interesting post Package...I guess even 'transforming' these guys from unavailabe to available then leaving them so coldly isn't helping them with their own issues either, I guess she's hazardous.  | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/15/2009 5:33:59 PM |
So this woman stops dating completly...
That is the correct way, OP. This woman needs to stop dating because she is damaged goods. Why waste other mens' time with her foolish games? She also needs a therapist to help deal with feelings when she thinks she wants to be in a relationship. | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/15/2009 5:39:44 PM |
And yannow, if the girl is transforming these guys like her father, they still aren't her father, hence another reason that she is dissatisfied because she never really learned to deal with her father's absence of affection.
ArabianAngel, I don't think that's quite what Package Deal meant, I don't think she meant to imply that this woman would be "hazardous" now. I think what she was saying was similar to what you and I both had as our best guess, that the woman in the scenario you outlined, needs to deal first with the lack of satisfactory relationship with her father FIRST, is all, before trying to apply that to relationships. 
It’s pretty much my train of thought too Sweetness, but even asking the source (father) of his actions could be futile, especially when he doesn't know any better. I believe most parents do the best they can with as much knowledge/experience they may have had, trying to get answers from someone that is probably unaware of their own behavior is pretty hard.
Hmm...well, maybe it's not really necessary for this woman to 'confront' her father in such a situation...maybe it's just more important that SHE comes to a sense of peace, that "okay, this was my dad, this was the best he was able to do" sort of thing, and find her own sense of peace, on her own terms?
Again, I'm no expert, and probably just spouting gibberish here...but I'm thinking that it's more important for the woman in the scenario you outlined, to find a solution/peace that works for HER, primarily.
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/15/2009 5:40:44 PM | | I don't think it's possible to unlearn behaviour, it's possible to retrain your mind so you don't act in ways that were harmful to you and to those around you but that could fall in to the realms of suppression. Complicated subject, but fascinating. | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/16/2009 3:49:54 AM | the brain is a computer with at least three semi-independent parts: the neural pathways, the conscious mind, and the subconscious mind. behavior patterns have both subconscious and conscious aspects to them, and behaviors -- when engaged in over extended periods of time OR formed during key periods of development -- become entrained or reinforced through the neural pathways, thus making them more or less "fixed". this tendency for behavior patterns to become "fixed" at a physical level is similar to "muscle memory", and of course there can be huge advantages or disadvantages to that depending on what the behavior patterns are.
plus there are all kinds of complexities that can come into play when the subconscious and conscious mind are sort of at odds with each other -- another topic entirely.
so the short answer is yes you can "unlearn" all kinds of behavior but it is not "unlearning" per se but replacing the old pattens with new ones and then reinforcing them until they become sufficiently fixed to override the old ones. reprogramming. it most definitely can be done. sometimes, it's not a "do-it-yourself" project. ;)
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/16/2009 4:32:36 AM | How do we unlearn behavior............is it as simple as learning the right way, and ignoring the old way? And is it really possible to change ingrained conditioning?
In a word? YES. It's like "how do you get to Carnegie Hall? PRACTICE".
Old but true. Behavior mod requires practicing the new behavior knowing full well it's not going to feel normal/comfortable...etc..Why would you expect it to? It's new for you. It's like learning a new dance step. You feel awkward at first but after really practicing it and giving in to it, it will soon become YOUR NEW normal...comfortable...etc. But it won't happen over night any more than your emotional issues were created over night. But be of good cheer. The answer is YES. You can change it.
As to the men you "wind up with". Flash. You don't just wind up with them. Realizing it not, you seek them out. Why? Because they're the "dad" you, as a small child, couldn't fix. The losers you find in life then become a challenge..in a sad way, because you only wind up proving what you're now saying that you know. Congratulations. That's a hellova inside leap. Not many want to go there. But the fact is, we have to. That's where the answers are after all.
The thought of hooking up with a real man scares you obviously becuase that's not predictable. With the other guys, you know exactly how the script is going to play out. But with the real deal, you don't - because the negatives aren't there any more. There's no more excuses to bail. LOL. That's when you face that spiritual abyss. Do you take a leap of faith and jump, or turn on TV and watch a movie. ...not that that's a bad thing LOL
That'll be a gazillion dollars please.
There's an old (American) Henny Youngman joke - so old it's got whiskers, but for good reason...
Guy goes to the doctor and says "Doctor. Every time I hit myself over the head with a hammer, it hurts like hell"!! The doctor says "So stop doing it!".
So stop punishing yourself. You can't "fix" those other guys. No one can fix anyone but themselves (if they're damned lucky) but "fixing" someone else is a waste of time because it's simply not doable. | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/16/2009 4:36:58 AM | OP - the SoldierByte has valid points, they do work, but failing his suggestions there are other things that your friend may look at.
We all know that we have “triggers” that make us do certain things, we also have “anchors” which are much more powerful, these “anchors” hold us back and stop us doing things, sometimes we call these anchors FEAR as you have stated. In this case as you describe it, the fear is in accepting love and losing perceived authority or control, the steering wheel, the comfort zone.
We tend to say as Humphrey Bogart loved to say “action speaks louder than words” yes sometimes it does but we fail to understand the awesome power of words – first there was the word and the world was created.
What I’m feeling is that your friend may have heard the words “you must work for” or similar words that still resinate in her head. This is the true trigger that she is experiencing, hence she finds men that she must work on.
The second is the anchor that prevents her accepting love, as I’ve stated above, her perception may be that by accepting love, she must stop “work”, losing perceived authority, control and so on, she may attribute this to her father and see it as a strength but does not realise that the true strength is in accepting love, she does not realise that the most powerful thing that we humans have is Love – as the good book says, for without love we are nothing.
My suggestion would be to regress and hear her past to find that trigger and to realise that Love is the ultimate and true strength, she can not create it she can only accept it.
Is your friend Asian? | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/16/2009 4:37:48 AM | It's been said by a large number of sociologists and pyschologists that our "love" needs are developed and fully in tact by the age of 5 years old by the people of influence in our lives - whether that is a biological father or a "father" figure (vice versa females for men, mothers and sons).
That five year old psyche regarding what love feels like, how love is shown, given, etc., is as fundamental and deep within you as your blood type. It cannot and will not be altered by you or by the actions of anyone else toward you and there's nothing that you can do to alter that time in your development as an adult.
You cannot unlearn the five most important years of your emotional development.
They also say this is when natural born killers are "created", animal abusers, sexual predators, and addicts. | |
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